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Shooting Bull

How can you shoot this?

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22 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

They didn't prohibit a dump on one target either. Smell what I'm cooking? I do understand your thought process, but I don't think you can go by what is prohibited.

Yes they did.  Triple tap 3 targets in any order is not interpreted as dumping 10 shots on one target.   Even I, as a most liberal interpreter of rules, instructions, etc., won't fall for that non-logic.  I, who have figuratively had my hand slapped for saying, "... but that wasn't the intent of the stage I wrote..."

 

I'm stopping now, before Pale Wolf sends me a pic of a fence post. :huh:

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37 minutes ago, Griff said:

Yes they did.  Triple tap 3 targets in any order is not interpreted as dumping 10 shots on one target.   Even I, as a most liberal interpreter of rules, instructions, etc., won't fall for that non-logic.  I, who have figuratively had my hand slapped for saying, "... but that wasn't the intent of the stage I wrote..."

 

I'm stopping now, before Pale Wolf sends me a pic of a fence post. :huh:

Hahahahahaha! It is the same logic you used when you said they didn't prohibit a quad tap! You said my point exactly when you just now said yes they did and that triple tap isnt a dump. Well a triple tap aint a quad tap either! I think you're liable to get the picture of a fence post anyway.

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1 hour ago, Griff said:

With thousands of stages shot, many hundreds as a stage writer, a few hundred as a match director, and with 35 years into this game, I've learned at least one thing, do NOT write or interpret a stage like an engineer.  Someone will come along that thinks further outside the box than you can imagine.*  Those shooting this game for a long time will tell you, when the shooter is given some degree of latitude in target engagement, (like, "in any order)", a very wide latitude in interpretation will be afforded the shooter in solving the scenario.    Sometimes it becomes a spotters nightmare, but... that's not the shooter's problem to solve, hitting the targets in accordance with the stage instructions is... doin' so in less time than anyone else makes them a "winner".

 

Take a simple 5 target array, in a straight line across the bay, little to no variation in size or distance and stage instructions that simply say:  "Sweep the targets twice from either direction"  I know of few experienced shooters that won't do one sweep from the left, or right, then do their 2nd in the opposite direction.  Yes, it means they double tapped that end target.  But... that wasn't prohibited in the instructions, was it?

 

Nor was a quadruple tap prohibited in the OPs instructions.  

 

 

 

*  In fact, at least one very slow, deliberate, former bulls-eye shooter, who can remain nameless, finds his challenge in doing just that!

Since we've gone so many pages! My thought is most ways of shooting the OP's stage would've been asked anyway. Because it said a triple tap in any order with the last shot on the center, seems if the center was triple tapped last annd then the last shot was on center, then we would mathematically have a quad tap or a triple tap plus one. Holy cow; are we heading to 12 pages?:P

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

They didn't prohibit a dump on one target either. Smell what I'm cooking? I do understand your thought process, but I don't think you can go by what is prohibited.

 

Yeah, they did.  "Triple tap each of the three targets in any order, place the 10th shot on the center target."  Please explain how you can do a 10 round dump and be within those instructions.

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21 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Since this seems to be stalling out at only 9 pages I'll ask another question.  Suppose the instructions said put 3 consecutive shots on each target, place the 10th round on any target, would 111-333-222-2 be ok? What do you think Tennessee?:)

 

Randy

I'm still interested in anyone's answer to the above scenario question?

 

Thanks

Randy

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17 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Since this seems to be stalling out at only 9 pages I'll ask another question.  Suppose the instructions said put 3 consecutive shots on each target, place the 10th round on any target, would 111-333-222-2 be ok? What do you think Tennessee?:)

 

Randy

 

 

I'm still interested in anyone's answer to the above scenario question?

 

Thanks

Randy

1
1

Yes.

We return you now to your regularly scheduled program. 

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Yeah, they did.  "Triple tap each of the three targets in any order, place the 10th shot on the center target."  Please explain how you can do a 10 round dump and be within those instructions.

Shooting Bull, that is my point exactly. They didn't say no quad taps either but it's understood ya cant because they said triple taps and single tap! I'm really hoping a lightbulb goes on when you read this buddy.

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13 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I'm still interested in anyone's answer to the above scenario question?

 

Thanks

Randy

Jury is still out. Im on a mission, lol.

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Just out of curiosity - what will you do if “the powers that be” come back and say there is nothing wrong with the way the stage was worded and consequently shot?

 

not trying to pick a fight - I am purely curious. 

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11 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Just out of curiosity - what will you do if “the powers that be” come back and say there is nothing wrong with the way the stage was worded and consequently shot?

 

not trying to pick a fight - I am purely curious. 

Agree!

 

Randy

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23 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I'm really hoping a lightbulb goes on when you read this buddy.

 

Are condescending comments really necessary?

 

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21 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Just out of curiosity - what will you do if “the powers that be” come back and say there is nothing wrong with the way the stage was worded and consequently shot?

 

not trying to pick a fight - I am purely curious. 

If your question is to me, I'll still love every danged one of ya. I'll disagree with the answer and wonder how in the world they ever came up with it, but I'd accept it. How about yall?

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

If your question is to me, I'll still love every danged one of ya. I'll disagree with the answer and wonder how in the world they ever came up with it, but I'd accept it. How about yall?

It was NOT directed at you. It is a general question to all involved. Ok, I quit - not trying to challange anyone - ok?  Ciao y’all. 

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1 minute ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

Are condescending comments really necessary?

 

Hold up a sec. I wasn't being condescending. I was being sincere. He and I go back and forth quite a bit about different things and are still friends. I hoped when he read it, he understood what I been trying to say. As a matter of fact I resent that you think I was being condescending when about all Ive heard is Im not logical, dont know grammar, etc etc. I think Ive been pretty patient. 

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9 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

It was NOT directed at you. It is a general question to all involved. Ok, I quit - not trying to challange anyone - ok?  Ciao y’all. 

Dang. What did I say now? 

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39 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Just out of curiosity - what will you do if “the powers that be” come back and say there is nothing wrong with the way the stage was worded and consequently shot?

 

not trying to pick a fight - I am purely curious. 

 

So am I.

Predict this thread would continue for a few more pages (either way).
:ph34r:

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1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

So am I.

Predict this thread would continue for a few more pages (either way).
:ph34r:

 

21 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

If your question is to me, I'll still love every danged one of ya. I'll disagree with the answer and wonder how in the world they ever came up with it, but I'd accept it. How about yall?

 

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39 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Just out of curiosity - what will you do if “the powers that be” come back and say there is nothing wrong with the way the stage was worded and consequently shot?

 

not trying to pick a fight - I am purely curious. 

 

Howdy Bob.

Whether those 'Powers'  comment or stay silent, one good thing this thread has hopefully accomplished

is discovering that folks from various clubs have become accustomed to various styles of stage writing,  which basically

can allow shooters to be creative or restrictive within each clubs adaptation of certain stage instructions.

 

AND... it will probably help serve all of us to ask questions on those stages to ensure we get it right.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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Just now, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy Bob.

Whether those 'Powers'  comment or stay silent, one good thing this thread has hopefully accomplished

is discovering that folks from various clubs have become accustomed to various styles of stage writing,  which basically

can allow shooters to be creative or restrictive within each clubs adaptation of certain stage instructions.

 

AND... it will probably help serve all of us to ask questions on those stages to ensure we get it right.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

True - to the point that folks will forget as soon as the buzzer goes off no matter what has been discussed.  Mind you I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, green or black or can or can’t count. I am just CURIOUS as to the outcome. 

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Shooting Bull, that is my point exactly. They didn't say no quad taps either but it's understood ya cant because they said triple taps and single tap! I'm really hoping a lightbulb goes on when you read this buddy.

 

You didn’t answer my question. How is it possible to triple tap three SEPERATE targets by performing a 10 round dump on a single target? 

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1 hour ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Just out of curiosity - what will you do if “the powers that be” come back and say there is nothing wrong with the way the stage was worded and consequently shot?

 

not trying to pick a fight - I am purely curious. 

 

I’ll abide by whatever ruling is made. 

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1 hour ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

Are condescending comments really necessary?

 

 

I appreciate that JHQ. But TW is right, we’re just having a friendly back and forth. If we start calling each other liberal commies then yeah, turn the hose on us and break it up. ;)

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

So am I.

Predict this thread would continue for a few more pages (either way).
:ph34r:

 

Oh I’m gonna do that just to be ornery. :P

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14 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

You didn’t answer my question. How is it possible to triple tap three SEPERATE targets by performing a 10 round dump on a single target? 

Thats my point, you can't. Just like you can't quad tap one of them instead of triple tapping it. If the shot string was broken up by shooting another target first, then itd only be a triple.

The only ways to shoot it, and have zero doubts it was done correctly would be 111,222,333,2 or 333,222,111,2 or 222,111,333,2 or 222,333,111,2. Notice no quad taps only triple taps and a single tap.

 

I'm tired.

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12 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Thats my point, you can't. Just like you can't quad tap one of them instead of triple tapping it. If the shot string was broken up by shooting another target first, then itd only be a triple.

The only ways to shoot it, and have zero doubts it was done correctly would be 111,222,333,2 or 333,222,111,2 or 222,111,333,2 or 222,333,111,2. Notice no quad taps only triple taps and a single tap.

 

I'm tired.

 

Now THAT I agree with.  Any of those examples would leave no doubt. But just because there's doubt doesn't automatically make other possibilities wrong. That's why we have 11 page threads like this. :D

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13 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Now THAT I agree with.  Any of those examples would leave no doubt. But just because there's doubt doesn't automatically make other possibilities wrong. That's why we have 11 page threads like this. :D

You know what? I don't disagree!

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The real question here is shy did Shooting Bull, the master bull sh*t*er, ask the question to begin with? Because he knows it is interpreted differently depending on who is reading it and the traditions in one area versus another.

 

Now what? If your club is using these instructions, elaborate a bit to make the intent abundantly clear.

 

How about some examples of how the stage could be written that clearly allows the last four rounds to go on the center target? Be sure to leave it open so that it is not required to end with four on the center target.  Randy St. Eagle has done it. I’ll go next.

 

Shoot each target three times each in any order, then place the tenth round on the center target. Yes you can. . .shoot your last four on the center target.

 

Shooting Bull?

 

Tennessee Williams?

 

Anyone? Anyone?

 

 

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I wonder what the record # of pages is? 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I wonder what the record # of pages is? 

 

 

 

One on 12/7/05........Oh you mean the longest 

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13 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I wonder what the record # of pages is? 

 

 

 

Hoss,

One of the higher thread with an abundant number of pages was about Gunfighters and all the techniques, equipment, etc..... that Gunfighters use.    PLUS, lost of post about practice techniques...etc.   I think it had over 2500 post.    

 

..........Widder

                        

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29 minutes ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

The real question here is shy did Shooting Bull, the master bull sh*t*er, ask the question to begin with? Because he knows it is interpreted differently depending on who is reading it and the traditions in one area versus another.

 

Now what? If your club is using these instructions, elaborate a bit to make the intent abundantly clear.

 

How about some examples of how the stage could be written that clearly allows the last four rounds to go on the center target? Be sure to leave it open so that it is not required to end with four on the center target.  Randy St. Eagle has done it. I’ll go next.

 

Shoot each target three times each in any order, then place the tenth round on the center target. Yes you can. . .shoot your last four on the center target.

 

Shooting Bull?

 

Tennessee Williams?

 

Anyone? Anyone?

 

 

Put atleast 3 rounds on all targets.

 

 

 

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“Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”

 

Three instructions:

1 - triple tap targets

2.  in any order

3. put last shot on center target

 

It did NOT say no quad taps.

 

We know what a triple tap is and it is required for the first 9 rounds.  And the center targets is required to have bit hit 4 times.

So the question is, what does any order mean?

 

Some are saying that triple-tap overrides the "any order" instruction, but that is not what was written. 

And some have added that you cannot quad tap although that is NOT in the instructions. 

 

So they say that one instruction invalidates the second and further add an instruction that was not in the original stage instructions.

 

My real concern about the issue is what will be added to the manual if they want to invalidate what is actually written.  How many pages and how much restriction in stage writing and how many added pages would result.

 

 

 

I am reminded back in 20001 when several bullies feared that if they made really difficult targets that people would merely shoot the wrong targets to gain an advantage.  And they would only be given a P.  They feared that people would not give the Spirit of the Game penalty so then wanted to lock people into giving much more severe penalties.  Unfortunately some very influential TG's and others were caught up in this idea.

 

Prior to 2001,  a miss was defined as not hitting a target. Hitting the wrong target was a P - and you could only get 1 P. So if you had a real bad miss that accidentally hit the wrong target, it was not a miss but a P.  No big deal, we all knew that.

 

If you shot the wrong target you got a P.  And if it was an obvious attempt to gain an advantage an added Spirit of the Game. 

 

But the bullies were upset that people would not give the Spirit of the Game penalty and also wanted to penalize stronger.  So, they made it a P and added a different definition of a miss - not just missing a target, but also hitting the wrong target. So if the gun sequence was 10 rounds the penalty would be 60 seconds (10 misses + P) So double the SOG penalty.

 

When it was presented, I was voted against it and explained why.  And warned that it would result in  overly severe penalties and great confusion.  As in this case, they responded by dodged the issue raised and belittled anyone who thought the existing rules were adequate, although they had worked for about 20 years.

 

The impact was when I was shooting at one excellent match, I failed to do an adequate walk through - my fault.  For the rifle targets, you had to move around  wall to see all three targets.  The distances were not much further than the pistol targets and they were all the same color, size and shape, so I moved and triple-tapped the last three targets (that I saw).  I was shocked when they said I had a P.

 

Unfortunately, I did not see the last target so I hit a pistol target 3 times.  Thus a penalty of 25 seconds.  The posse discussed it and many did not want to give the full 25 seconds, but some (rightly) insisted. 

 

After the match, we found that this had happened to several others, but I was the only one to get the full penalty because people did not agree with the new rules.

 

SASS quickly realized that the change was a mistake.  To "correct it" they dropped the Procedure penalty.  They left the revised definition of a miss and further expanded it.  

Since the concept of misses and procedures were now merged where they had previously been separate, they had to add a flow chart and further instructions.  At that point the manual was too large for the old "pocket book" format. 

 

And we have continued to see a lot of confusion ever since.

 

So depending on how we "fix" this "issue" we could greatly impact how stages are written and greatly complicate the process.  And we could add several more pages to the manual and further complicate everything.

 

So, for those who believe this is an issue, how would you change the rules to fit your ideas?

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