Rifle falling off table

[MBFields]

19 hours ago, Laramie said:

In a sport that is supposed to be immersed in "spirit of the game", I can't believe that someone would willingly let a fellow shooter's gun fall just to see what penalty can be accessed. Really? Safety would be the only concern in my mind. When I'm TO, I will try my best to help the shooter not be penalized. 

+++++100

[Dantankerous]

Lots of varying opinions, different interpretations and dissension in this discussion about what should or should not be done. A rule clarification one way or the other is apparently not going to make everything well. There seems to be the proverbial can of worms not only opened but dumped out all over the table...

[Blast Masterson]

On 8/27/2018 at 8:50 AM, Griff said:

This is one of the things that would cause me to really re-think my involvement in a sport that showed such little respect for another's property that it would become against the rules to try to save another man's property from damage, never mind the safety aspect of a rifle spinning off a table and sweeping anyone.  I find it hard to believe this is even a point of discussion.  No matter what any call a TO might make is, it affects the outcome of the match.  What's next... eliminate spotters, because calling misses affects the outcome of the match?

 

Are decency and uncommon good sense out the window?

I have only been around for one year, but I shoot four ranges and have yet to see anything like this on the range. Anyone that argues with "Let it fall" to assess a penalty deserves a "Spirit of the Game" bonus themselves!

 

I have only seen one gun hit the dirt and the shooter threw up his hands and awarded himself the penalty.

 

A lot of time, effort and money goes into shooting some matches, but the outcome of the match "at all costs" is no excuse for this type of thinking and behavior.

 

The shooter creates the penalty, not the TO or Spotter. A MSV is generally more than enough to take anyone off the top shooters spot. If they can still place with more than a "P", they are a damn good shooter, and don't need their gun in the dirt if preventable.

 

If your competing for the top spot, would you want someone to let your gun fly if it could be avoided? If not, than the playing field is still even. If you do, I don't want to shoot with you.

 

[Crusty Knees]

I'm confused.  I'm not really grasping this.  What I've seen most often is:  The shooter puts down a long gun hard, and it bounces a bit,  and as he's breaking towards the next position, the T.O. puts his hand down on that long gun to steady it, making sure it doesn't slide off the table or whatever.  The long gun might not have fallen, but it did bounce a little.  No one has a clue if it really would have moved further.  It was just a spontaneous move by the T.O.  Is there a penalty assigned to the shooter for what might, maybe/maybe not happened?

 

Thanks,

CK

[Blast Masterson]

Someone could read this line and "argue" that... I guess.

 

Quote

No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing it to be clear.

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

What I've seen most are long guns, that appear to be sliding off hay bales. Seems like that would be a prop failure. Bales do not seem to be good places to restage guns.

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

A gun that slips and falls without breaking the 170 is a MSV.    A empty gun that is dropped or falls because of carelessness is a sdq.   If you as a TO catch a falling gun.  The shooter still gets the sdq 

[Griff]

51 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

Someone could read this line and "argue" that... I guess.

That would be taking that line out of context... sorta like "cherry-pickin'" part of a rule.  It's in place for when a long gun's action closes after it's laid down, and is to ensure that the competitor is given fair notice of its condition, i.e. empty, or no.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

6 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

A gun that slips and falls without breaking the 170 is a MSV.    A empty gun that is dropped or falls because of carelessness is a sdq.   If you as a TO catch a falling gun.  The shooter still gets the sdq 

This is the way I understand "the rule", although i do not like it.  Steadying a rocking/bouncing gun, IMO, still is a DO NOT DO for TO...don't like that either.  Unfortunately, doubt that all will abide, human nature to help in safety often  kicks in (which is a good thing also).

[Patagonia Pete]

On 8/26/2018 at 3:28 PM, Hells Comin said:

Kurt James is referring to ME dropping a unloaded rifle yesterday.  It was my fault of course I was crowding the edge of the table so I could pick my shotgun up faster..It fell off the table and landed barrel pointing down range hell didn't even place the hole rifle on the table ( idiot) so I stopped shooting and went to the unloading tabe. I though it was a Sdq. But I ended up with a ms and 4 misses.  The (hole) day was a cluster _ _ _ _ !

 

 

[Kirk James]

My understanding is that if the rifle breaks the 170 it is a stage dq.  If the rifle does not break the 170 it is a minor safety.  The question is if the TO saves the rifle from falling you would not know whether it would break the 170 or not.  I am reading that it is a msv if the TO saves the rifle from falling and I am reading that the TO should not save the rifle from falling.   Still not sure what the answer is.   

[Kirk James]

With Hell's Comin drop, the rifle did not break the 170 so the msv was given.  

[Whiskey Kid]

4 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

A gun that slips and falls without breaking the 170 is a MSV.    A empty gun that is dropped or falls because of carelessness is a sdq.   If you as a TO catch a falling gun.  The shooter still gets the sdq 

This is the current rule.

 

So if it comes to rest and then slides of a haybale or prop, its a MSV.  If the shooter pitches it down and it bounces off and hits the dirt or if the TO catches and saves it, SDQ.

 

I don't agree with not being able to save a gun as the TO, but that's the rule.

 

From the manual...

 

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ)
A Stage Disqualification (SDQ or “Stage DQ”) is generally a safety violation of a more serious
nature, and means the competitor’s time and performance on the course of fire is disqualified
as a result of the violating action by the shooter.

- Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line.
- Long guns that slip, fall, and break the 170°.
 

[Patagonia Pete]

41 minutes ago, Whiskey_Kid said:

> snip <
- Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line.
- Long guns that slip, fall, and break the 170°.
 

OK .. I guess I am the last one to "get it" but I see now that they are making a distinction between a firearm being dropped and one that slips and falls (presumably as a result of an attempt to re-stage the gun).

I wish they would just say - Long guns that slip, fall and break the 170 while re-staging - 

 

That being the case ... lets say during the execution of the stage I reach to retrieve my unloaded shotgun and fumble and allow it to hit the ground ... Breaking the 170 in this case is academic because I "DROPPED" the gun. I just bought a SDQ even if it didn't break the 170.

 

However ... if during the execution of the stage I finish with my shotgun (now empty) and attempt to re-stage it. During that attempt it "slips and falls" but does not break the 170 ... I get a MSV.

 

It is confusing ... but apparently a long gun sliding off a table while re-staging "IS NOT" the same as dropping it. Wish they would work the "re-staging" phrase in that line somewhere.

 

[Blast Masterson]

5 hours ago, Griff said:

That would be taking that line out of context... sorta like "cherry-pickin'" part of a rule.  It's in place for when a long gun's action closes after it's laid down, and is to ensure that the competitor is given fair notice of its condition, i.e. empty, or no.

That "was" the point. 

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

48 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

That "was" the point. 

Delete

[wildphilhickup]

Is the gun really falling?  Or is the ground, "earth", coming up to the gun?   

 

Some folks still don't believe in gravity.

 

Tables are made for cards and food, not guns.    It would be more interesting if we threw the guns on the ground.

[Flying W Ramrod]

From the ROC Clarifications tab on the OOWSS.com website.

From the August 2015 ROC Clarifications:

7) The action of a CRO/TO saving a long gun from falling over, still results in a penalty for the shooter. Basically if the CRO/TO had not been present to save the shooter from a penalty such as this, and the long gun would have fallen over regardless, then the penalty would still apply. The CRO/TO was just there to save the firearm from getting dirt on it!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I do believe that some have gotten way too free with the slip and fall.  Bumping it is not slipping and falling

[Shooting Bull]

48 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

I do believe that some have gotten way too free with the slip and fall.  Bumping it is not slipping and falling

 

Not sure what you mean. Could you expand on the thought? 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Shooter throws rifle on table,  falls off.   It’s on shooter. Sdq.   Shooter bumps gun and it lands on ground.  Sdq.     Shooter carefully placed gun,  after being placed it slips and falls w/o breaking 170.  THEN a msv

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I caught a shotgun in mid air once at eot, it wasn’t fair to other shooters, he ended up winning his cat

[Kirk James]

 My understanding is that a firearm that falls off the table and hits the ground and does not break the 170 is a msv.  If a TO interferes with a falling firearm it is also a msv no matter how they interfere unless they cause it.  If a firearm falls and breaks the 170 it is a sdq.  Is this correct?  Could we get an official ruling on this one before it gets confusing?  It was brought up as a new ruling at our last shoot.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

22 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

 My understanding is that a firearm that falls off the table and hits the ground and does not break the 170 is a msv.  If a TO interferes with a falling firearm it is also a msv no matter how they interfere unless they cause it.  If a firearm falls and breaks the 170 it is a sdq.  Is this correct?  Could we get an official ruling on this one before it gets confusing?  It was brought up as a new ruling at our last shoot.

This was ruled on 3 years ago.

You are correct in your assessment.

 

ROC Clarification August 2015

The action of a CRO/TO saving a long gun from falling over, still results in a penalty for the shooter. Basically if the CRO/TO had not been present to save the shooter from a penalty such as this, and the long gun would have fallen over regardless, then the penalty would still apply. The CRO/TO was just there to save the firearm from getting dirt on it!

 

Note: This is the only way to apply a penalty such as this, as some TOs may not be able to save the rifle from falling, and it would not be fair for those shooters who receive the penalty purely because of the action / inaction of their particular TO.

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

8 hours ago, Kirk James said:

 My understanding is that a firearm that falls off the table and hits the ground and does not break the 170 is a msv.  If a TO interferes with a falling firearm it is also a msv no matter how they interfere unless they cause it.  If a firearm falls and breaks the 170 it is a sdq.  Is this correct?  Could we get an official ruling on this one before it gets confusing?  It was brought up as a new ruling at our last shoot.

Only if  it was placed there carefully. Slips and falls as the  operative word. If it was thrown on the table and falls off stage Safely. disqualification. If the shooter bumps it and it falls stage disqualification. If it was placed carefully and it slips and falls then it’s a minor safety if it doesn’t break the 170. Keyword being Safely.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

14 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

From the ROC Clarifications tab on the OOWSS.com website.

From the August 2015 ROC Clarifications:

7) The action of a CRO/TO saving a long gun from falling over, still results in a penalty for the shooter. Basically if the CRO/TO had not been present to save the shooter from a penalty such as this, and the long gun would have fallen over regardless, then the penalty would still apply. The CRO/TO was just there to save the firearm from getting dirt on it!

I started looking for this yesterday, got as far as opening the OOWSS.com website, got busy with something else and didn't get back to it. Thank you. 

[Crusty Knees]

The shooter puts down a long gun hard, and it bounces a bit,  and as he's moving towards the next position, the T.O. puts his hand down on that long gun to steady it.

He does not know that the gun was even going to bounce off the table or break the 170, but the T.O. being safety conscious and out of habit, steadied the gun.  What should he call?

 

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

18 hours ago, Kirk James said:

My understanding is that if the rifle breaks the 170 it is a stage dq.  If the rifle does not break the 170 it is a minor safety.  The question is if the TO saves the rifle from falling you would not know whether it would break the 170 or not.  I am reading that it is a msv if the TO saves the rifle from falling and I am reading that the TO should not save the rifle from falling.   Still not sure what the answer is.   

Flying W. Ramrod has quoted the clarification a few posts down below your post. You are correct in your understanding of the rules and there are no directives that say a TO should stand by and allow a gun to fall. 

 

If a TO intentionally allowed a long gun of mine fall, they would never time for me again. They can give me whatever penalty they think is appropriate, but don't stand by and let my gun hit the ground. 

[Yusta B.]

3 minutes ago, Crusty Knees said:

The shooter puts down a long gun hard, and it bounces a bit,  and as he's moving towards the next position, the T.O. puts his hand down on that long gun to steady it.

He does not know that the gun was even going to bounce off the table or break the 170, but the T.O. being safety conscious and out of habit, steadied the gun.  What should he call?

 

No call.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

2 minutes ago, Crusty Knees said:

The shooter puts down a long gun hard, and it bounces a bit,  and as he's moving towards the next position, the T.O. puts his hand down on that long gun to steady it.

He does not know that the gun was even going to bounce off the table or break the 170, but the T.O. being safety conscious and out of habit, steadied the gun.  What should he call?

 

IMO, no call. The TO has multiple decisions that must be made during the course of a shooter's run. You do the best you can do and use your best judgment. If, as the TO, you think it would have fallen, give the penalty you deem appropriate. I could go into long explanations about the probability of how a long gun would land based upon where it would go off the prop, but in VERY general terms, if it is going off the side and is supported both front and back, it will likely land pointing downrange. If it is falling off the back of the prop and the prop is high, it will likely end up pointing uprange. The TO simply has to use their best judgement. 

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

I may be wrong, it's happened in the past, and will happen again in the future.  A gun that is returned to a prop and comes to rest, then slips and falls to the ground and does not break the 170 is a MSV,  If it breaks the 170 SDQ,  If for some reason it has a live round on the carries that has slid into the chamber, and breaks the 170 or sweeps someone is where I am not 100% sure but IMHO it would be a MDQ.   

For a gun that is dropped, tossed, onto a prop, continues it motion without coming to rest, and falls to the ground is a SDQ.    Same if the shooter places it down safe, takes off for another position, hits the butt stock etc and spins the gun onto the ground, SDQ (I know this one )  

[Assassin]

I'm going out on a limb here. How about we build better props for gun placement. We've just about done away with any type of vertical staging already. 

 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

On 8/28/2018 at 1:26 AM, Kirk James said:

 My understanding is that a firearm that falls off the table and hits the ground and does not break the 170 is a msv.  If a TO interferes with a falling firearm it is also a msv no matter how they interfere unless they cause it.  If a firearm falls and breaks the 170 it is a sdq.  Is this correct?  Could we get an official ruling on this one before it gets confusing?  It was brought up as a new ruling at our last shoot.

Kirk,

Here is my understanding.....

 

When a long gun is re-staged ...and there is not a prop failure

1. if the long gun stops moving THEN slips, falls without any further interaction with the shooter and doesn't break the 170.... it is a MSV.

2. If the long gun never stops moving and falls or the shooter has further interaction with the long gun and it falls then it is a SDQ.

 

 

If the RO saves a long gun from hitting the ground they should apply the appropriate penalty based why they had to save the gun....either number 1 or 2 applies.

 

Taking a logical look at the situation and applying the two possibilities the shooter that doesn't re-stage their gun properly should get the penalty they earned. Just because a RO saves the gun from hitting the ground does not mean a rule was not broken and a penalty was earned by the shooter.

 

The only gray area I see is for condition 1.....If the long gun came to rest then starts falling and and is saved by the RO there would be no way to determine if it would or would not have broken the 170 so the shooter only gets the MSV. 

 

A shooter that has sloppy gun handling should expect to get every penalty they earn.

 

Stan

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

On 8/27/2018 at 6:41 PM, wildphilhickup said:

Is the gun really falling?  Or is the ground, "earth", coming up to the gun?   

 

Some folks still don't believe in gravity.

 

Tables are made for cards and food, not guns.    It would be more interesting if we threw the guns on the ground.

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I just had to do that!!