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Angles and Belly Buttons...


Phantom, SASS #54973

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17 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If you don't like my opinion, debate me. If you don't want to debate me, than simply avoid my posts. A little self control can alleviate a lot of aggravation.

 

Phantom

 

 

Best statement I've seen in a long time from anyone.  Now I'm going back to the Saloon before I make the wire look Stoopid (C) Phantom 2018, used subject to the fair use laws of the United States of America

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2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Selective reading? 

Did you miss the first part of the statement...before the "or"? 

 

Right away you're bustin' on me. I ask a simple question as a 74 year old trying to stay competent, or at least feel like it. I wasn't challenging anybody and have nothing to defend.

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I've never liked the 30º rule on cross-draw holsters. Somewhere between 35-40º has always seemed like it was the most comfortable angle for use and wear for me... but, I try to adhere to and will enforce that rule.  The "why" of it's enactment has always been a mystery.  Some say "safety"... but, if the revolver is "safe" when holstered, it seems a contradiction to say a holstered pistol in @ a 45º cant is unsafe.  For years, I used a "slim jim" holster for my 1851 that was made at a ~40º cant (standard holster from some maker 30+ years ago), I modified it so it's a little less than 30º.  But, I continually have to push it down so it remains so.  (Relatively thin belt strap and worn so the grip is near the belt buckle, simply walking tends to push the barrel up).

 

The shotgun belt "bra" was/is a competitive advantage... having the shells closer to the area where the shotgun action means the shooter has less distance to travel with the shells in loading and reloading the shotgun during the course of the stage.  Besides, it does look stoopid.

 

Rules is rules.  Someone calling for their enforcement is well within their rights and obligations as a "safety officer". Anyone NOT doing so, is not acting responsibly.  Following the rules is fairly simple, not always comfortable, sometimes, for some folks, nigh impossible, (physical limitations).  Sometimes, uncommon good sense should prevail. 

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I find both rules strictly enforced in the places I shoot.   Pictures are not always the best at depicting the true situation.  But I assure you when I see a violation, it  is brought to the shooters attention and called if he fails to correct it.  There are other match officials than just the posse leaders also.  

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On 4/16/2018 at 6:43 AM, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

 

Pssst...we don’t use the word “bugger” in the US so if you heard “Bugger, that’s me”. It was probably an Aussie. :P:D

Pat, it's obvious you haven't been around my wife, Smokin Limey!!!:D. That's one of her favorite words and she will rightly tell you she's ENGLISH!!  As in GREAT BRITIAN ENGLISH!!!:D

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Please clarify the following rule book passages.

 

Leather belt slide ammo loops are acceptable, however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo belt. - Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button

 

Does the first sentence mean the shotgun slides may not be worn over top of other slides or that they cannot be worn above the the loops on an ammo belt?

 

Does the second sentence mean the whole cartridge must be below the belly button?  It seems there is some confusion here.

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28 minutes ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

Please clarify the following rule book passages.

 

Leather belt slide ammo loops are acceptable, however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo belt. - Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button

 

1) Does the first sentence mean the shotgun slides may not be worn over top of other slides or that they cannot be worn above the the loops on an ammo belt?

 

2) Does the second sentence mean the whole cartridge must be below the belly button?  It seems there is some confusion here.

 

1) BOTH...the intent is to prevent the ammunition from being positioned out & away from the shooter's body.

2) NO...at least part of the ammo itself must be "at or below"...NOT the belt itself or the entire round(s).

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37 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

1) BOTH...the intent is to prevent the ammunition from being positioned out & away from the shooter's body.

2) NO...at least part of the ammo itself must be "at or below"...NOT the belt itself or the entire round(s).

Thanks for the clarification, maybe I was the only one confused.

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2 hours ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

Never understood the SASS approval of the stiff leather bandoleer which puts SG ammo way above the belly button. 

For one bandoleers are far more period correct. And two, I’m assuming you’ve never used one. They certainly don’t stay put, especially if shooting more than 4 shells and/or on the move. Generally speaking, if something provides a true competitive advantage rather than just the notion of one then you’ll see almost everyone using the former, and certainly the top tier shooters. All of these other supposed competitive advantage gear like bandoleers, and my favorite John Wayne finger groove grips, just aren’t used very often. Folks that do use them do so despite the lack of competitive advantage, not because of one. 

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6 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

For one bandoleers are far more period correct. And two, I’m assuming you’ve never used one. They certainly don’t stay put, especially if shooting more than 4 shells and/or on the move. Generally speaking, if something provides a true competitive advantage rather than just the notion of one then you’ll see almost everyone using the former, and certainly the top tier shooters. All of these other supposed competitive advantage gear like bandoleers, and my favorite John Wayne finger groove grips, just aren’t used very often. Folks that do use them do so despite the lack of competitive advantage, not because of one. 

Lots of things are period correct but not allowed.  The bandoleers I have seen used are very stiff to minimize movement and due to ammo placement do give modest speed shooters an advantage with their slower competitors with what usually is their worst gun.

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7 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

For one bandoleers are far more period correct. And two, I’m assuming you’ve never used one. They certainly don’t stay put, especially if shooting more than 4 shells and/or on the move. Generally speaking, if something provides a true competitive advantage rather than just the notion of one then you’ll see almost everyone using the former, and certainly the top tier shooters. All of these other supposed competitive advantage gear like bandoleers, and my favorite John Wayne finger groove grips, just aren’t used very often. Folks that do use them do so despite the lack of competitive advantage, not because of one. 

If you are chasing your bandolier around in any stage, you should look at getting a better one or setting it up better. 

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14 hours ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

Please clarify the following rule book passages.

 

Leather belt slide ammo loops are acceptable, however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo belt. - Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button

 

Does the first sentence mean the shotgun slides may not be worn over top of other slides or that they cannot be worn above the the loops on an ammo belt?

 

Does the second sentence mean the whole cartridge must be below the belly button?  It seems there is some confusion here.

A slide worn over anything that makes it protrude from the body would be considered illegal...... ie: Belt Buckle, or a wild rag stuffed behind it, even pushing the end together on a slide to make it stand out from the body. 

 

 and my favorite John Wayne finger groove grips, just aren’t used very often.

These shouldn't be used at all. They were ruled illegal.

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18 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

 

 and my favorite John Wayne finger groove grips, just aren’t used very often.

These shouldn't be used at all. They were ruled illegal.

I’m referring to when they were legal on the Rooster shooter. You certainly didn’t see every Tom, Dick and Harry running out to buy them did you? I use mine all the time; at the non sass sanctioned match I shoot at that doesn’t have that idiotic rule. 

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10 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

I’m referring to when they were legal on the Rooster shooter. You certainly didn’t see every Tom, Dick and Harry running out to buy them did you? I use mine all the time; at the non sass sanctioned match I shoot at that doesn’t have that idiotic rule. 

Imagine what would be out there without that rule. It’s not idiotic, it keeps our guns from looking stupid. 

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5 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Imagine what would be out there without that rule. It’s not idiotic, it keeps our guns from looking stupid. 

Could not disagree more. If the rule was written the same as it is for the large loop lever, I.e. something like “finger grooves must be like John Wayne used, grooves on one panel only” etc, then you wouldn’t have those “stoopid” looking grips everyone is afraid of. It’s a lazy excuse at best. 

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11 hours ago, Smokestack said:

Imagine what would be out there without that rule. It’s not idiotic, it keeps our guns from looking stupid. 

I could not agree more!!!

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There are several applications for mobile smart phones that can be used to measure the angle AS WORN. Such as "Modern Level".

From the picture provided, the measurement would be 15 degrees.

 

 

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Chance, yous should be fine.

image.png.81d28e0614cff47a58857c138ea15bf4.png

Measure the distance of the green line of your holster as it is worn.

 

Take that measurement and see how many of those will go one the full length of your holster. 

 

If it takes 2 or more, you are good. 

 

Looks like yours would be almost three.

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On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 8:24 AM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Roscoe,

 

I have an advertisement for a pre-1900 (1875) SG shell belt. :o

 

 

1875 Revolving Cartridge Belt.jpg

It's impossible to tell where his bellybutton is!

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Everybody back into neutral corners please.  Bottles, get everybody a drink... put it on my tab.

Leseee, the topic of this thread was somethin' about playing the game by the rules, the way they is written.

You may resume :lol:

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm right at 7 years with SASS now.  I rarely see shotgun bras, maybe two or three times so far.  I've never seen or heard of anyone around here being called for a cross draw/strong side holster violation. 

I have 20+ years in the saddle and have seen shotgun bras and holster violations that have not been called, hence the reason for the OPs question.

 

Folks take the RO classes and are told not to be a hard ass then when a body has to make an unpopular call, they are ridiculed for being a hard ass.  It becomes a conundrum for those wanting to play by the rules.

 

We have a few stoopid© rules that are not enforced, get rid of them and enforce the the others.   Folks need to understand that there are times when you have to be the hard ass.

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3 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I have 20+ years in the saddle and have seen shotgun bras and holster violations that have not been called, hence the reason for the OPs question.

 

Folks take the RO classes and are told not to be a hard ass then when a body has to make an unpopular call, they are ridiculed for being a hard ass.  It becomes a conundrum for those wanting to play by the rules.

 

We have a few stoopid© rules that are not enforced, get rid of them and enforce the the others.   Folks need to understand that there are times when you have to be the hard ass.

It may just be a difference of where we're shooting.  I just came back from FL State, 200 shooters.  Admittedly holster angles aren't as obvious and I wasn't looking specifically for that type of violation, but shotgun bras are very obvious and I didn't see any of those.  I did see a shooter called for carrying a rifle reload tucked into a strap of his holster.  

 

I've never seen anyone ridiculed for any type of call.  I've seen objections, but not ridicule.

 

Just the view from my saddle, but the rules seem to be pretty fairly and consistently enforced around here.  Not perfect, but pretty good.

 

Just out of curiosity what are the rules that we need to get rid of?

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OK-can someone PLZ post up a picture or two, of what is called a 'shotgun-bra'.

TNX,

OLG

 

Not this, but if it was actually one such...

 

 

C38B09D5-F3CF-4B60-8231-B4A399475F24.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OK-can someone PLZ post up a picture or two, of what is called a 'shotgun-bra'.

TNX,

OLG

I've got a couple, including a picture of what caused the rule in the first place.  I'll search for them and edit to make them anonymous.  

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OK-can someone PLZ post up a picture or two, of what is called a 'shotgun-bra'.

TNX,

OLG

 

SG%20belt%2014Nov%20crpd.jpg

 

 

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3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

SG%20belt%2014Nov%20crpd.jpg

 

 

That one is pretty extreme......

Even by today's standards! :)

 

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