Angles and Belly Buttons...

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It may just be a difference of where we're shooting.  I just came back from FL State, 200 shooters.  Admittedly holster angles aren't as obvious and I wasn't looking specifically for that type of violation, but shotgun bras are very obvious and I didn't see any of those.  I did see a shooter called for carrying a rifle reload tucked into a strap of his holster.  

 

I've never seen anyone ridiculed for any type of call.  I've seen objections, but not ridicule.

 

Just the view from my saddle, but the rules seem to be pretty fairly and consistently enforced around here.  Not perfect, but pretty good.

 

Just out of curiosity what are the rules that we need to get rid of?

I started a thread as follows on the TG forum:

"Hi Folks,

 

Assuming we will have another TG Summit or chance to vote, what rules or clarifications  would you like to see changed or added?

 

I'll start.

 

1. I'd like to see the clarification changed where it was stated that a long gun that was laid port down on an empty round is a MSV (did I read that correctly?). It should be a no call if the round is not in the gun.

 

2. About DNFs, I'd like to see that designation replaced with DNS (did not start). The DNS call would only be made when a shooter did not shoot an entire stage. For whatever, reason, once a round goes down range and the shooter stops shooting (for good reason), the shooter should only be scored for unfired rounds (5 second penalty each) on a stage.  The recent example that led me to this opinion was the case of a shooter losing safety glasses. Say they broke, the shooter would be forced to not finish. Another potential instance is where a shooter slips, falls and sprains an ankle, bloodies a knee, ... The shooter may not be able to recoup for that stage; but may be able to finish the match.

 

I feel that the undue harshness of these rules or clarifications is unnecessary to the safety of our game.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo"

 

Several people mentioned wanting the SASS default starting position to be eliminated.

[Sedalia Dave]

4 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I did see a shooter called for carrying a rifle reload tucked into a strap of his holster.  

 

That should have been a no call. Carrying ammo on your holster is SASS legal.

 

 

 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

2 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I wonder why the belly button was chosen as the datum opposed to something more easily enforced like the elbow? 

Course the bottom of the belt is at the guys elbow.  I think one fist between the gun belt and the SG would be easier to monitor.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 minute ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Course the bottom of the belt is at the guys elbow.  I think one fist between the gun belt and the SG would be easier to monitor.

It would be, but you’d just start seeing higher gun belts with more drop in the holsters and we’d be right back to looking like circus freaks. Haha. 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

You might be right about that lol.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

4 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It may just be a difference of where we're shooting.  I just came back from FL State, 200 shooters.  Admittedly holster angles aren't as obvious and I wasn't looking specifically for that type of violation, but shotgun bras are very obvious and I didn't see any of those.  I did see a shooter called for carrying a rifle reload tucked into a strap of his holster.  

 

I've never seen anyone ridiculed for any type of call.  I've seen objections, but not ridicule.

 

Just the view from my saddle, but the rules seem to be pretty fairly and consistently enforced around here.  Not perfect, but pretty good.

 

Just out of curiosity what are the rules that we need to get rid of?

 

 

 

Perhaps ridiculed isn't the right word but I personally have been harassed/badgered the rest of the match after I made a call that wasn't popular. 

 

Holster angles are violated freely and 170° holstering violations pretty normal.  Spend some time watching videos in slow motion to get the drift.

 

The safety police have added rules in the name of safety that aren't consistent with other shooting sports.  Case and point-the basketball rule.  In the early days, we shot on the move regularly and safely.  I've seen more falls and near disasters when folks try to stop and get off balance when adhering to the basketball rule or trying to shoot stretched out around a prop than moving with a cocked gun.

 

Empty cases on the carrier of a long gun is another redundant rule.  If the TO determines the case is empty, no call.  Live, penalty assessed.  

 

 

[Chance Arizona]

On 22/04/2018 at 5:50 PM, Chance Arizona said:

Hi All, I have wondered if this holster was the correct degree of angle, could someone please confirm this and if not I will address this problem asap 

Thanks for the help I am using my gear as a teaching tool for new shooters where ever I go in Ontario, Canada and I was questioned on my holsters. 

So I sought advise from the pros like you as I thought what better way to confirm that my rig is properly angled.  I always want to teach and follow the rules.

Thank you very much for your help.

Cheers, Chance 

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

17 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I wonder why the belly button was chosen as the datum opposed to something more easily enforced like the elbow? 

 

Well in the picture PWB posted the shells were mostly below his elbows and still too high.  So it clearly wasn't an easy answer.  I think next month I'm going to make sure my GB and shotgun belt are touching. 

[diablo slim]

Either ban bandolero shotshell belts...or dont tell me mine are too high

[Shooting Bull]

17 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Several people mentioned wanting the SASS default starting position to be eliminated.

 

 

Yes, yes YES!  A thousand times YES!!!

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

19 minutes ago, diablo slim said:

Either ban bandolero shotshell belts...or dont tell me mine are too high

Why not just switch to a bandolier if you think higher is better?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

9 hours ago, diablo slim said:

Either ban bandolero shotshell belts...or dont tell me mine are too high

Let me understand what you are saying. You will continue violating a rule until SASS bans a legal item...do I have that right???

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

11 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Well in the picture PWB posted the shells were mostly below his elbows and still too high.  So it clearly wasn't an easy answer.  I think next month I'm going to make sure my GB and shotgun belt are touching. 

You must be looking at a different photo...

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

36 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You must be looking at a different photo...

That’s kinda what I was thinking too. I think ammo being below the elbow when the arm is bent 90°, would be much easier to enforce. 

[McCandless]

On 4/23/2018 at 4:51 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OK-can someone PLZ post up a picture or two, of what is called a 'shotgun-bra'.

TNX,

OLG

 

This is a picture of a top shooter, (now gone, R.I.P.).  Back when there was no "shotgun belt rule'

So this was perfectly legal.  You can see where things were going. 

The rule as it stands now is a good'un.  Let's play the game the way it is written.  Enforce the rules.

If you don't like a rule, work to get it changed.  But, until then...

 

 

 

[Roscoe Regulator]

5 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

This is a picture of a top shooter, (now gone, R.I.P.).  Back when there was no "shotgun belt rule'

So this was perfectly legal.  You can see where things were going. 

The rule as it stands now is a good'un.  Let's play the game the way it is written.  Enforce the rules.

If you don't like a rule, work to get it changed.  But, until then...

Some people have two waists. That pic looks like the belt was probably pretty comfortable, aside from being at a height favoring a reload. Just sayin'.

 

 

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

2 hours ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

Some people have two waists. That pic looks like the belt was probably pretty comfortable, aside from being at a height favoring a reload. Just sayin'

I don’t think the rule was made to keep the ammo further from the gun so much as to keep us from looking ridiculous. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

On 4/23/2018 at 8:32 PM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I started a thread as follows on the TG forum:

"Hi Folks,

 

Assuming we will have another TG Summit or chance to vote, what rules or clarifications  would you like to see changed or added?

 

I'll start.

 

1. I'd like to see the clarification changed where it was stated that a long gun that was laid port down on an empty round is a MSV (did I read that correctly?). It should be a no call if the round is not in the gun.

 

2. About DNFs, I'd like to see that designation replaced with DNS (did not start). The DNS call would only be made when a shooter did not shoot an entire stage. For whatever, reason, once a round goes down range and the shooter stops shooting (for good reason), the shooter should only be scored for unfired rounds (5 second penalty each) on a stage.  The recent example that led me to this opinion was the case of a shooter losing safety glasses. Say they broke, the shooter would be forced to not finish. Another potential instance is where a shooter slips, falls and sprains an ankle, bloodies a knee, ... The shooter may not be able to recoup for that stage; but may be able to finish the match.

 

I feel that the undue harshness of these rules or clarifications is unnecessary to the safety of our game.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo"

 

Several people mentioned wanting the SASS default starting position to be eliminated.

I have to agree with suggestion 1. Allie.

 

I don't understand why you want to eliminate the default starting position though.  I could see modifying it, but why eliminate it? 

 

If you eliminate it then stage writers will need to define what the shooter is doing at the beginning of the stage, even if that's just saying 'shooter's choice of stance hands not touching guns or ammo'.  You can already override the default starting position simply by putting a statement in the stage instructions to that same effect.  The only thing eliminating the default position does is require the stage writer to say something about it, they've always had the option to specify whatever they want.

 

On 4/23/2018 at 9:40 PM, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Perhaps ridiculed isn't the right word but I personally have been harassed/badgered the rest of the match after I made a call that wasn't popular. 

 

Holster angles are violated freely and 170° holstering violations pretty normal.  Spend some time watching videos in slow motion to get the drift.

 

The safety police have added rules in the name of safety that aren't consistent with other shooting sports.  Case and point-the basketball rule.  In the early days, we shot on the move regularly and safely.  I've seen more falls and near disasters when folks try to stop and get off balance when adhering to the basketball rule or trying to shoot stretched out around a prop than moving with a cocked gun.

 

Empty cases on the carrier of a long gun is another redundant rule.  If the TO determines the case is empty, no call.  Live, penalty assessed.  

 

 

I don't see angle violations that often, so again it may be a local thing.  The same thing with the 170, a guy on my posse was called for breaking the 170 over the top with a long gun at FL State.

 

I'm kind of with you on the basketball rule, though I understand why some venues go even further and have a poke and plant rule.  When your lawyer says  create that rule or risk losing everything you own most folks create the rule and enforce it.

 

Not sure on the empty case.  As I see it, having that rule makes the TO's job easier.  If I see brass in the action, I'm calling the shooter back to clear it.  Without that rule I have to either determine whether it's live (can be hard to do with the timer running and the shooter potentially moving), take the risk and let the shooter keep going, or take the risk and perhaps call them back when I didn't need to.  I don't see a clean solution here though I agree that empty brass isn't a threat.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

49 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I have to agree with suggestion 1. Allie.

 

I don't understand why you want to eliminate the default starting position though.  I could see modifying it, but why eliminate it? 

 

If you eliminate it then stage writers will need to define what the shooter is doing at the beginning of the stage, even if that's just saying 'shooter's choice of stance hands not touching guns or ammo'.  You can already override the default starting position simply by putting a statement in the stage instructions to that same effect.  The only thing eliminating the default position does is require the stage writer to say something about it, they've always had the option to specify whatever they want.

 

I don't see angle violations that often, so again it may be a local thing.  The same thing with the 170, a guy on my posse was called for breaking the 170 over the top with a long gun at FL State.

 

I'm kind of with you on the basketball rule, though I understand why some venues go even further and have a poke and plant rule.  When your lawyer says  create that rule or risk losing everything you own most folks create the rule and enforce it.

 

Not sure on the empty case.  As I see it, having that rule makes the TO's job easier.  If I see brass in the action, I'm calling the shooter back to clear it.  Without that rule I have to either determine whether it's live (can be hard to do with the timer running and the shooter potentially moving), take the risk and let the shooter keep going, or take the risk and perhaps call them back when I didn't need to.  I don't see a clean solution here though I agree that empty brass isn't a threat.

I was unaware of this hatred of the default position.  It is a neutral starting position that gives no advantage for pre-positioning hands and body that is easily over-ridden by stage instructions.  I say leave it alone.

 

The 170 holstering violations are easy to miss as the spotters are focusing on targets and many times don't watch the shooter back to leather.  This is particularly so when spotting for a fast shooter.  The TO is usually behind the shooter with limited view of the holstering of a cross draw thus unable to see the muzzle adequately.  Not seeing it doesn't mean it isn't happening.  I watch for it instinctively after spending 22 years as a LEO rangemaster thus is a pet peeve of mine.  

 

The safety police will use the threat of losing everything if you don't make up a rule to stop a perceived safety issue, i.e. the basketball rule.  It's the go to leverage to force an issue.  It doesn't matter to them that multiple other shooting sports shoot on the move safely without losing everything, it's their agenda to get the rule imposed using threat tactics if necessary.  The problem is, making a rule to stop an activity sometimes creates a more dangerous situation in the end.  

 

The empty case example does not make the TO's job any harder and is no more difficult to deal with than a closed action.  The shooter returns to the firearm to show clear and/or the case/live round.  It eliminates the penalty in the situation Allie describes where the long gun is laid down on an empty as well.  I am mixed as to calling a shooter back to a discarded long gun unless there are unfired rounds left after the shooting string.  As a TO, I try to count to catch that error.  If the required amount of rounds are fired,  I move on and deal with an empty in the firearm at the end of the run.  

 

I really dislike rules that are made as a "What if....?" or "This could happen because of ......"  The safety rules need to be made based on the HIGH likelihood of dangerous acts injuring someone.  Traveling is not one of those acts.  An empty case on a carrier will injure no one.  

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

23 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I was unaware of this hatred of the default position.  It is a neutral starting position that gives no advantage for pre-positioning hands and body that is easily over-ridden by stage instructions.  I say leave it alone.

 

The 170 holstering violations are easy to miss as the spotters are focusing on targets and many times don't watch the shooter back to leather.  This is particularly so when spotting for a fast shooter.  The TO is usually behind the shooter with limited view of the holstering of a cross draw thus unable to see the muzzle adequately.  Not seeing it doesn't mean it isn't happening.  I watch for it instinctively after spending 22 years as a LEO rangemaster thus is a pet peeve of mine.  

 

The safety police will use the threat of losing everything if you don't make up a rule to stop a perceived safety issue, i.e. the basketball rule.  It's the go to leverage to force an issue.  It doesn't matter to them that multiple other shooting sports shoot on the move safely without losing everything, it's their agenda to get the rule imposed using threat tactics if necessary.  The problem is, making a rule to stop an activity sometimes creates a more dangerous situation in the end.  

 

The empty case example does not make the TO's job any harder and is no more difficult to deal with than a closed action.  The shooter returns to the firearm to show clear and/or the case/live round.  It eliminates the penalty in the situation Allie describes where the long gun is laid down on an empty as well.  I am mixed as to calling a shooter back to a discarded long gun unless there are unfired rounds left after the shooting string.  As a TO, I try to count to catch that error.  If the required amount of rounds are fired,  I move on and deal with an empty in the firearm at the end of the run.  

 

I really dislike rules that are made as a "What if....?" or "This could happen because of ......"  The safety rules need to be made based on the HIGH likelihood of dangerous acts injuring someone.  Traveling is not one of those acts.  An empty case on a carrier will injure no one.  

I don’t see the empty case ever becoming a no call, and I don’t really think it should. I just wish we could be honest about it and stop calling it a safety violation. It is a procedure which we are to follow, not following it should be a procedural violation. If you make it a no call, it would take about 5 minutes for the double barrel shooters to decide that opening and shucking the last pair is a waste of time. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

40 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I was unaware of this hatred of the default position.  It is a neutral starting position that gives no advantage for pre-positioning hands and body that is easily over-ridden by stage instructions.  I say leave it alone.

 

The 170 holstering violations are easy to miss as the spotters are focusing on targets and many times don't watch the shooter back to leather.  This is particularly so when spotting for a fast shooter.  The TO is usually behind the shooter with limited view of the holstering of a cross draw thus unable to see the muzzle adequately.  Not seeing it doesn't mean it isn't happening.  I watch for it instinctively after spending 22 years as a LEO rangemaster thus is a pet peeve of mine.  

 

The safety police will use the threat of losing everything if you don't make up a rule to stop a perceived safety issue, i.e. the basketball rule.  It's the go to leverage to force an issue.  It doesn't matter to them that multiple other shooting sports shoot on the move safely without losing everything, it's their agenda to get the rule imposed using threat tactics if necessary.  The problem is, making a rule to stop an activity sometimes creates a more dangerous situation in the end.  

 

The empty case example does not make the TO's job any harder and is no more difficult to deal with than a closed action.  The shooter returns to the firearm to show clear and/or the case/live round.  It eliminates the penalty in the situation Allie describes where the long gun is laid down on an empty as well.  I am mixed as to calling a shooter back to a discarded long gun unless there are unfired rounds left after the shooting string.  As a TO, I try to count to catch that error.  If the required amount of rounds are fired,  I move on and deal with an empty in the firearm at the end of the run.  

 

I really dislike rules that are made as a "What if....?" or "This could happen because of ......"  The safety rules need to be made based on the HIGH likelihood of dangerous acts injuring someone.  Traveling is not one of those acts.  An empty case on a carrier will injure no one.  

I think you're missing my point on the empty round rule.  As it currently stands if you see brass in the rifle or a hull in the shotgun, as a TO your job is clear.  As long as they haven't already fired the next gun call them back to clear it.  Without that rule the TO has to make a split second determination of whether that is a fired round or a live one.  Just because you counted 10 shots, or think you counted 10 shots, doesn't mean it's not a live round.  You may have miscounted, the shooter may have loaded too many rounds, so in a split second the TO must make a decision that could prevent a penalty or result in a reshoot due to bad coaching.    Plus, as Smokestack pointed out, it won't be long after that rule is removed before the last shotgun rounds cease to be shucked.  I know that if shotgun isn't last and that rule doesn't exist I'm not shucking, why would I?

[Ramblin Gambler]

14 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You must be looking at a different photo...

 

No,  but it was on the previous page so I didn't go look at it again.  The wide belt hanging under the SG shells fooled me.  I didn't mean to type 'mostly' in that sentence, but at least part of the SG shells are below the elbow.  So if the rule was written as it is now but using the elbow instead of the belly button, that picture could still be legal.  At worst it'd be legal with only a minor adjustment that I think we can all agree would still look wrong.  Everyone doesn't have the same forearm to upper arm proportions.  My point still stands I don't think there is an easy answer.  Even if you made the rule that the SG belt and gunbelt must be touching, you'd have people making SG corsets that put the shells at their chin. 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

1 hour ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I don’t see the empty case ever becoming a no call, and I don’t really think it should. I just wish we could be honest about it and stop calling it a safety violation. It is a procedure which we are to follow, not following it should be a procedural violation. If you make it a no call, it would take about 5 minutes for the double barrel shooters to decide that opening and shucking the last pair is a waste of time. 

And I knew this would become an argument that is easily disputed by calling a SOG since the shooter made no conscious effort to shuck the shells to gain an advantage.   

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

55 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think you're missing my point on the empty round rule.  As it currently stands if you see brass in the rifle or a hull in the shotgun, as a TO your job is clear.  As long as they haven't already fired the next gun call them back to clear it.  Without that rule the TO has to make a split second determination of whether that is a fired round or a live one.  Just because you counted 10 shots, or think you counted 10 shots, doesn't mean it's not a live round.  You may have miscounted, the shooter may have loaded too many rounds, so in a split second the TO must make a decision that could prevent a penalty or result in a reshoot due to bad coaching.    Plus, as Smokestack pointed out, it won't be long after that rule is removed before the last shotgun rounds cease to be shucked.  I know that if shotgun isn't last and that rule doesn't exist I'm not shucking, why would I?

I get your point but in the advent you don't see brass, lefties put their guns down backwards from righties, there shouldn't be a penalty for empty brass if it is missed by the TO or counters.  You will see brass in a Double.  Bad Coaching isn't grounds for a reshoot.  The TO's job is to safely help the shooter through the stage when possible.  That doesn't mean you have to save that shooter from their mistakes.  The shooter owns the stage from start to finish and with that, they own their mistakes.  

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

8 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

And I knew this would become an argument that is easily disputed by calling a SOG since the shooter made no conscious effort to shuck the shells.   

I don’t think that SOG as it’s currently written would apply to that situation. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

2 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I get your point but in the advent you don't see brass, lefties put their guns down backwards from righties, there shouldn't be a penalty for empty brass if it is missed by the TO or counters.  You will see brass in a Double.  Bad Coaching isn't grounds for a reshoot.  The TO's job is to safely help the shooter through the stage when possible.  That doesn't mean you have to save that shooter from their mistakes.  The shooter owns the stage from start to finish and with that, they own their mistakes.  

Bad coaching IS grounds for a re-shoot. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

38 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

And I knew this would become an argument that is easily disputed by calling a SOG since the shooter made no conscious effort to shuck the shells to gain an advantage.   

How do you call a spirit of the game on someone for NOT doing something that the rules DON'T require him to do?  What?  you want to get rid of the penalty for empty rounds, then what is the point of shucking?  If empties aren't an issue (that's what YOU said) why do you care if they're in the shotgun?

33 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I get your point but in the advent you don't see brass, lefties put their guns down backwards from righties, there shouldn't be a penalty for empty brass if it is missed by the TO or counters.  You will see brass in a Double.  Bad Coaching isn't grounds for a reshoot.  The TO's job is to safely help the shooter through the stage when possible.  That doesn't mean you have to save that shooter from their mistakes.  The shooter owns the stage from start to finish and with that, they own their mistakes.  

Please don't take this the wrong way, but that collection of words between "I get your point....or counters" isn't a sentence, doesn't form a coherent thought, and doesn't refute my concern.  It's indisputable that if the rule were changed as you suggest, TO's would have to make a determination about whether it's a live round that needs to be cleared, or an expended round that doesn't matter.   I fundamentally disagree with hour characterization of what a TO does.  A TO is supposed to safely 'assist' the shooter through the stage.  I'm not going to shoot the stage for them, but if I can help them avoid a penalty I'm going to do that, and I'm going to do my best to be in a position to be helpful by observing and staying close.

 

 

[Shooting Bull]

2 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I was unaware of this hatred of the default position.  It is a neutral starting position that gives no advantage for pre-positioning hands and body that is easily over-ridden by stage instructions.  I say leave it alone.

 

I hate it.  HATE it.  It's not a neutral position for me.  I'm somewhat athletic (In my dreams anyway).  A neutral position for me is aggressive, leaning slightly forward, weight on the balls of my feet, bent forward ever so slightly at the waist.  That my default (neutral) position.  Having to stand bolt upright isn't natural for me.

 

The argument about it giving no advantage doesn't hold water.  Remove the rule altogether.  Let people stand however they want.  If someone chooses to put themselves at a disadvantage by standing bolt upright great, that's their choice.  But everybody can do exactly the same thing. And by definition, if everybody can do the exact same thing there's no advantage.  It's the same as shooters being given the choice of shooting a stage from left to right or right to left. 

 

Easily over-ridden?  Sure, but why?  Why not just remove it?  It serves no purpose.  

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

5 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I hate it.  HATE it.  It's not a neutral position for me.  I'm somewhat athletic (In my dreams anyway).  A neutral position for me is aggressive, leaning slightly forward, weight on the balls of my feet, bent forward ever so slightly at the waist.  That my default (neutral) position.  Having to stand bolt upright isn't natural for me.

 

The argument about it giving no advantage doesn't hold water.  Remove the rule altogether.  Let people stand however they want.  If someone chooses to put themselves at a disadvantage by standing bolt upright great, that's their choice.  But everybody can do exactly the same thing. And by definition, if everybody can do the exact same thing there's no advantage.  It's the same as shooters being given the choice of shooting a stage from left to right or right to left. 

 

Easily over-ridden?  Sure, but why?  Why not just remove it?  It serves no purpose.  

Should the port arms position be eliminated also? 

[COLORADO JACKSON]

1 hour ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Bad coaching IS grounds for a re-shoot. 

Improper coaching by the TO, is prob a better way to word it

[Shooting Bull]

42 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Should the port arms position be eliminated also? 

 

Apples to oranges comparison.  That's a specific position match directors may want all shooters to start from.  It's the same as, "Shooter begins with hands on table."  Or, "Shooter begins holding rope in both hands."  Those are always allowed. 

 

My point is that if no specific position is given the shooter should be able to choose whatever position suits them best.  In that case everyone has exactly the same opportunity to choose their starting position so there's no competitive advantage.

 

Let me put it this way.  Currently the SASS default is the starting position if no other specific starting position is given in the stage instructions.  But stage writers have the option of stating, "Shooter may begin at any position they choose."  I think it should be the other way around.  Unless the stage instructions specifically state that the shooter must start from the SASS default or some other position then it's shooter's choice.

[Smoky Pistols]

*ponders* I wonder if real cowboys bitch this much! 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

9 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Apples to oranges comparison.  That's a specific position match directors may want all shooters to start from.  It's the same as, "Shooter begins with hands on table."  Or, "Shooter begins holding rope in both hands."  Those are always allowed. 

 

My point is that if no specific position is given the shooter should be able to choose whatever position suits them best.  In that case everyone has exactly the same opportunity to choose their starting position so there's no competitive advantage.

 

Let me put it this way.  Currently the SASS default is the starting position if no other specific starting position is given in the stage instructions.  But stage writers have the option of stating, "Shooter may begin at any position they choose."  I think it should be the other way around.  Unless the stage instructions specifically state that the shooter must start from the SASS default or some other position then it's shooter's choice.

I only ask because port arms is listed just below the default position in the conventions. I’ve been writing stages for about 5 years now, and not once have I neglected to include a starting position. It’s just not that hard to write that part of the stage as well. My point is, if the match director doesn’t like the default, it’s a non issue, and if they do include it, they probably would have written it that way even if the default didn’t exist. I personally don’t care either way, but I do not like that the default applies across other shooting positions such as hands on hat. 

[Yul Lose]

14 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said:

*ponders* I wonder if real cowboys bitch this much! 

Yes they did, but they got to shoot each other.

[Shooting Bull]

24 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said:

*ponders* I wonder if real cowboys bitch this much! 

 

Wait till you see me out on the range.  It's worse.  MUCH worse.