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Angles and Belly Buttons...


Phantom, SASS #54973

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Years ago I recall a rather rotund fellow with his shotgun belt literally nearly up to his chest. He got called on it. Rather than relent he skulked around whining and crying about how unfair it was and that he was being discriminated against.

He finally made a big mistake. He sidled up next to me at the loading table whining about his demise and not being able to properly shoot because “they” won’t let him use his perfectly legal shotgun belt.

I not so politely told him knock it off, shut the hell up and follow the rules or go home.

 

Not so “Cowboy Way” according to a few people there that day...but he did shut up and shoot...and he made a BIG PRODUCTION out of having to dig SG shells out of his pockets. Of course he decided that  he “just couldn’t possibly” use any of the shotgun slides offered to him that day...

 

Anyway, sometimes calling someone on the rules may not result in a comfortable situation but it’s necessary if we are to have integrity in this game.

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An additional ...... Often the Gun Belt and Holster are built correctly, and are perfectly ok, UNTILL worn at such an angle on the body 30 degrees becomes 45 or 50.

 

Both photographic examples are probably right at legal cant until both gun belts are worn well off horizontal.  Often a straight drop holster will approach 30 degrees with the way the gun belt is worn.

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It is amazing how often both of these conditions occur.  I was recently at the Texas State Match and came across a newer female shooter who had just finished up on her last stage of the match.  Although I didn't see her shoot the stage, I could only assume that she was wearing the holster incorrectly while shooting the stage.  Both her cross draw and her strong side holsters were clearly cross the center line on the same side of the body.  Now, like I said, since I can only assume and did't witness the act of shooting with improper equipment, I couldn't enforce a penalty, so I approached one of the posse members I knew and had a private conversation with him asking if he would discuss it with her once the match is over in order to prevent the occurrence in the future.  Hopefully this will take care of it, but we will see.

 

On another note, it amazes me how you can have a conversation with someone about a violation and there opinion about it and then someone else might chastise you for making a big deal out of a clear violation! (SG Bra)  If you don't want a big deal made of a rules violation...Handle it

 

WK

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I don't wear a crossdraw holster often, but when I do I wear it almost straight up and down in order to do the cavalry twist draw. One day a guy approached me and told me my cross draw wasn't legal because the cant had to be more than 30 degrees. This was an RO as well.

 

Last Saturday at a shoot, there was a guy walking around wearing a belt well above the belly button. I didn't bother saying anything, because unless the belly button is visible, I can't say for certain. The reason I mention this is because when it came time to shoot, that belt was much lower than it had been earlier, and then back up higher after the stage. So just because someone is walking around with it not legal, doesn't mean that they are shooting with it in an illegal position. Just something to take into consideration before making assumptions.

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

An additional .....Often the Gun Belt and Holster are built correctly, and are perfectly ok, UNTILL worn at such an angle on the body 30 degrees becomes 45 or 50.

 

Both photographic examples are probably right at legal cant until both gun belts are worn well off horizontal.  Often a straight drop holster will approach 30 degrees with the way the gun belt is worn.

 

One our local shooters was concerned about her X-draw angle and asked me to check it before she shot the first stage (monthly match).

It was at about 50 degrees.

At the LT, I noticed that just before going to the line, she pushed the back of her gunbelt down.

After she was cleared at the ULT, I checked it again & it was at 28 degrees "as worn" while she was engaging the stage.

 

FWIW - The photos above were posted as examples of illegal cross-draw angles...as they were taken "off the line", they are not necessarily how they were worn while actually shooting.

 

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When I wear a cross draw, my cross draw is made at 10 degrees and my strong side is made at 20 degrees when worn. Several times shooters have approached me and said did I know that I put my holsters on backwards.

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     Well, I totally misread the title of the post. I was looking forward to hearing about the belly button of an Angel! I guess my excitement was all for naught. 

     I reckon I'll throw this out there anyhow. I expect a warning before I'm poked in the belly button. Better yet, buy me dinner first.

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11 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

     Well, I totally misread the title of the post. I was looking forward to hearing about the belly button of an Angel! I guess my excitement was all for naught. 

Well that’s just silly. Angels don’t have belly buttons. Nor do Adam and Eve. I thought everyone knew that. 

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On 4/16/2018 at 1:11 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Two examples of illegally worn holsters (found on internet posts from major SASS events)

Both are at around 48 degrees (BTW - BOTH shooters were standing next to RO INSTRUCTORS in the original photos)

 

 

HOLSTER 48 DEGREES.jpg

HOLSTER 50 DEGREES.jpg

 

 

Well, I'm glad somebody has finally defined exactly where the measurement is to be taken from.

 

Thanks PaleWolf.

 

"Holsters may not depart from the vertical by more than 30 degrees when worn"

 

My question was always, exactly where is the angular measurement supposed to be taken?

 

Leading edge of the holster?

 

Bore of the revolver?

 

Sometimes the leading edge of the holster and the bore of the revolver are not parallel.

 

Anyway, this is the rig I have been wearing in CAS for a bazillion years. These holsters have the angle built into them. I can see I am going to have to get a protractor and measure just how close I am to an infraction.

 

Duke%20Rig%2002_zpsomylbkzk.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Being new to the sport my question would be what came first the Belly Button Rule or the Bandoleer approval? With the Bandoleer shells are well above the belly button. What is the point of one rule if its supper ceded buy the function of another sass legal piece of equipment? 

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2 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

Well that’s just silly. Angels don’t have belly buttons. Nor do Adam and Eve. I thought everyone knew that. 

Well, I can agree on Adam and Eve because they weren't actually born. I do however, know several Angels with belly buttons. 

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13 minutes ago, Dust'N Bottles said:

Being new to the sport my question would be what came first the Belly Button Rule or the Bandoleer approval? With the Bandoleer shells are well above the belly button. What is the point of one rule if its supper ceded buy the function of another sass legal piece of equipment? 

 

The "unsecured bandolier" rule came first...the "belly button" rule came later when some shooters began wearing ammo belts up around the chest.

A bandolier is not considered an "ammo belt" (i.e. a belt worn around the waist)

Quote

Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

SHB p.3

 

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36 minutes ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

 

 

Duke%20Rig%2002_zpsomylbkzk.jpg

 

Is it just me, or is your belt upside down? I like the looks of that rig. Reminds me a little of mine, but with just a few more years of use.

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21 minutes ago, Dust'N Bottles said:

Being new to the sport my question would be what came first the Belly Button Rule or the Bandoleer approval? With the Bandoleer shells are well above the belly button. What is the point of one rule if its supper ceded buy the function of another sass legal piece of equipment? 

Welcome!!  Besides the rule and reasoning that PW sited, for those that want a more 'historical' look, there are plenty of old west pictures of folks wearing bandoleers, and none of with 'shogun bras'. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

The "unsecured bandolier" rule came first...the "belly button" rule came later when some shooters began wearing ammo belts up around the chest.

A bandolier is not considered an "ammo belt" (i.e. a belt worn around the waist)

SHB p.3

 

I can see where "unsecured" is the important factor here. Where as the belt is snug and the shells are right where you want them, and the bandoleer may be a bit of a dance and hunt for the shells as the location shifts as you move from stage to stage. Thank you for the education. 

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2 minutes ago, Dust'N Bottles said:

I can see where "unsecured" is the important factor here. Where as the belt is snug and the shells are right where you want them, and the bandoleer may be a bit of a dance and hunt for the shells as the location shifts as you move from stage to stage. Thank you for the education. 

That's exactly what happens, especially if you couple down range movement with lots of shotgun targets. The weight of the shells is about the only thing "securing" a bandoleer, so the more you shoot the less secure it becomes. I have shot stages with 8-10 shotgun knockdowns and had my bandoleer fall off my shoulder and kind of trap my right arm from doing anything useful.

 

One of the biggest advantages of a bandoleer not often mentioned has nothing to do with shooting a stage. You can easily pull it off your shoulder and toss it in your cart to relieve yourself of some weight and any kind of burden a belt or slide might have on you while doing posse duties.

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23 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

 

Last Saturday at a shoot, there was a guy walking around wearing a belt well above the belly button. I didn't bother saying anything, because unless the belly button is visible, I can't say for certain. The reason I mention this is because when it came time to shoot, that belt was much lower than it had been earlier, and then back up higher after the stage. So just because someone is walking around with it not legal, doesn't mean that they are shooting with it in an illegal position. Just something to take into consideration before making assumptions.

 

I have the same issue.  My shotgun belt tends to ride up on me when I'm walking around doing possee chores.  I think it happens when I bend over to pick things up.  When I do my  SG shell check at the LT I move my belt back into position if it's wandered again. 

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9 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

The rules infractions I see the most are the cross draw breaking the 170 and breaking the 170 after a shooter finishes a stage headed for the ULT. I am on the ULT a lot.

kR

I'm kinda confused but it's been a rough coupla weeks.  Usually a shooter headed to the unloading table has a long gun in both hands and pistols holstered, unless he has an illegal amount of hands, (competitive advantage) :D  How do they break the 170 doing that? 

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Here is a graphic to help know that your rig is legal.

 

Note that the Green line should be less than 1/2 the length of the blue line.

 

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/holster.html

image.png.60ed3c820a4abf86fa99579ac63954c0.png

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If I recall, the belly button issue came up in an earlier thread,

and my solution was:

5ad65bde6392b_BellyButtonShotgunBeltAnswer.JPG.afe1be5ceb36d8f6606e6dd9afeaa8ff.JPG

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19 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

     Well, I totally misread the title of the post. I was looking forward to hearing about the belly button of an Angel! I guess my excitement was all for naught. 

     I reckon I'll throw this out there anyhow. I expect a warning before I'm poked in the belly button. Better yet, buy me dinner first.

Refer to the post of "Graduation Photo"

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2 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Here is a graphic to help know that your rig is legal.

 

Note that the Green line should be less than 1/2 the length of the blue line.

 

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/holster.html

image.png.60ed3c820a4abf86fa99579ac63954c0.png

I don't know how helpful that picture is when talking real world, but damned if I don't love that holster.

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6 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

The rules infractions I see the most are the cross draw breaking the 170 and breaking the 170 after a shooter finishes a stage headed for the ULT. I am on the ULT a lot.

kR

 

I actually see more “straight hang” holster users break the 170, searching around for the opening in a holster too far back on their hip!!

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34 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

I actually see more “straight hang” holster users break the 170, searching around for the opening in a holster too far back on their hip!!

Yup, and most cross-draw shooters I've seen that break or come close to breaking the 170 are new shooters, wearing their holsters too far around facing rearward.  A little help from a mentor early on, or calling it during a match, seems to cure it.

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10 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

Well that’s just silly. Angels don’t have belly buttons. Nor do Adam and Eve. I thought everyone knew that. 

I don’t know how silly that is. I knew an Angel for a short time and she had a belly button, a very nice belly button......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I don’t know how silly that is. I knew an Angel for a short time and she had a belly button, a very nice belly button......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that you mention it, I knew several Angels that bared their belly buttons every night for work. And maybe more

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Wow, a Wire thread hijacked...imagine that!!!!

 

Guess it's run it's course.

 

And again...if shooters, TO's and MD's aren't going to stand up to enforcing these SASS rules, let's just eliminate them and move on...put up with X-draw holsters that are horizontal (real safe), and SG Bras (Real stoopid looking).

 

Phantom

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"...er to do the cavalry twist draw. One day a guy approached me and told me my cross draw wasn't legal because the cant had to be more than 30 degrees. This was an RO as well...." 

 

i had this same experience - i was wearing a standard galco holster made for this game - no modifications had been made and i too was doin the dance , i have seen custom rigs i question , but ill be honest - i think most are made to standard and it may be the body shape that makes it appear to violate , i have seen more violations of the separation of holsters than angle of the cross draw , ive always wondered why gamers dont just work hard at acheiving the optimum of their performance within the perimeter of the edge of the rule rather than break them , does it not seem to defeat the purpose of being the best really ? ? 

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9 minutes ago, watab kid said:

"...er to do the cavalry twist draw. One day a guy approached me and told me my cross draw wasn't legal because the cant had to be more than 30 degrees. This was an RO as well...." 

 

i had this same experience - i was wearing a standard galco holster made for this game - no modifications had been made and i too was doin the dance , i have seen custom rigs i question , but ill be honest - i think most are made to standard and it may be the body shape that makes it appear to violate , i have seen more violations of the separation of holsters than angle of the cross draw , ive always wondered why gamers dont just work hard at acheiving the optimum of their performance within the perimeter of the edge of the rule rather than break them , does it not seem to defeat the purpose of being the best really ? ? 

You're saying that they have their holster closer then 2 fists apart??

 

And why attack folks with the Gamer label?

 

And one last thing. Do you really think that Galco really understands the CAS world???

 

Phantom

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4 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

I don’t know how silly that is. I knew an Angel for a short time and she had a belly button, a very nice belly button......

 

Barbra Eden?

 

images.jpg

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17 hours ago, McCandless said:

I'm kinda confused but it's been a rough coupla weeks.  Usually a shooter headed to the unloading table has a long gun in both hands and pistols holstered, unless he has an illegal amount of hands, (competitive advantage) :D  How do they break the 170 doing that? 

I didn't realize the subject was only about revolvers. I thought it was about rules infractions. When I am sitting at the ULT and some one comes off the line and his shotgun or rifle is pointed straight at me I consider that to be at least as bad as holstering and breaking the 170 with or without sweeping someone.

kR

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 I have observed that some do not always enforce rules they dislike or considered a minor offense 

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