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170* Rule


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The RO-I manual (as you knew it) has been removed, eliminated, trashed, not available anymore.......

 

Instructors only

 

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I think that SASS needs to put out a video on what is and what is not a 170 degree violation.  Have examples of what is correct and what is not in the various drawing configurations.  I think that we all need to have a SAFETY first attitude and a winning attitude second.  When safety is abandoned for all out speed, sooner or later something is going to happen.  I for one don't want to give the liberal news media anything but good to report about our sport.  I for one don't want to accidently shoot anyone and if I am in violation, call it!  Let me know what I did wrong, so I can correct it.  Nothing I can win, no trophy, no belt buckle, or any other accolade is worth injuring someone.

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4 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

so are you referring to the definition of the 170 in the OLD RO1?

 

if so......are you trying to say we aren't allowed to use this stage design?

 

Where does it say you can't have 2 different firing lines?

 

We are talking about a L shaped walled building with windows and doors......the shotgun targets HAVE to be engaged through windows. The shotgun is stage in the window pointing at the shotgun targets.

 

Are you going to call a 170 violation when I stage my gun?

 

Stan

Just because it doesn't say you can't have two line doesn't mean you can.  

 

I have shot similar stages at different clubs including Norco and Fort Miller's Helltown.  When the shooter encounters a window or door to shoot a target, the targets are set slightly downrange thus not allowing the shooter to break the 170*.  If this setup is used where the shooter has to shoot at 90* to the original firing line, it is in fact violation of the 170*.  It is a simple fix as the target only has to get moved downrange 5*.  Same thing goes with the staging of the shotgun.  5* downrange is the fix.

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2 hours ago, Shamrock Sadie said:

 

Then there is the angle of the pistol targets (not the table) for this stage. Looks like there are 2 ways to look at this 170 discussion depending on what stage is shown. If a 90 degree angle (L-shaped stage) as in Orlando, then 2 170's. But in this stage where the pistol targets are angled diagonally and the shooter is shooting towards the side of the berm (and not towards the back of the berm), then only 170 in line with the back of the berm? Hmmm. Shooter would have to be cognizant of the spotters and spectators that would be in their 170 when shooting the pistols, I guess.

Howdy Sadie, there have been stages like the angled diagonal to side berm at past Givhans Ferry. As best I can mis-remember one was with the SG, two on right, move downrange then two on left, then move for R/P at back of berm. Another one was with pistols at a BP match....5 rounds on right, move downrange 5 rounds on left, then move to center for R/SG. Both of those had the 170 perpendicular to the back berm. Good Luck:)

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1 hour ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

Howdy Sadie, there have been stages like the angled diagonal to side berm at past Givhans Ferry. As best I can mis-remember one was with the SG, two on right, move downrange then two on left, then move for R/P at back of berm. Another one was with pistols at a BP match....5 rounds on right, move downrange 5 rounds on left, then move to center for R/SG. Both of those had the 170 perpendicular to the back berm. Good Luck:)

Hello Jefro...:)

That is true! We had the boat where you were shooting the pistols at a slight angle to the spectators. I didn't particularly care for that setup because of the angle of the targets, but hey. ; )

So for safety purposes and to not break the shooter's 170 (angle of the pistol targets), I put barriers at the same angle as the targets so that spotters wouldn't go past a certain point to break the 170 and to keep them moving forward.

On one stage this past year (the blue cave), we pointed out that as the shooter moved through the tunnel the 170 changed with them because of the angle and the far right spotter had to be back in order not to intrude on the 170. I didn't care for the angles of that stage either, so put fences up.

For the other stage that you are talking about (this past year), we put large barrels and fences to herd the shooter in the direction we wanted and to keep the spotters from intruding on the 170.

I responded to this post to point out that sometimes the 170 should move for safety purposes. Folks can't say that the 170 is always based on the back of the berm.

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2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

REF my comments on the Facebook thread...

 

Getting plumb wore out jumping back and forth. 

 

:P

What Facebook thread?

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I wish I understood why this is so difficult for so many.

 

Visualize this...

The shooter is standing in a doorway within a wall that is on the firing line.  That wall is your 170.

--------l l---------

Anything on the downrange side of the wall is legal to shoot at. Anything on the uprange side of the wall is off limits.

 

Now visualize that doorway can move from side to side within that wall.

It doesn't change anything tho, no matter where the doorway is; items in front of the wall are legal - items to the rear are not. The wall itself remains your current 170.

--l l------------- or ------------l l---

 

Now visualize that the wall itself can move downrange along with the shooter; keeping the shooter within that doorway all the time.  As the shooter moves downrange, the wall moves downrange and the items ahead of the wall remain legal while the items which may have previously been legal become off limits as they transition from in front of the wall to behind the wall. The 170 (our wall) has indeed moved and will continue to move as the shooter does.

BUT... The 170 does not EVER change it's orientation with the range. It can only move forwards and backwards. 

In the example that Stan posts (and I have nothing but respect for Stan), the 170 is a constant from left to right across the stage (an imaginary wall), if the shooter has to point their gun at or behind where this imaginary wall would be; they have violated the 170. That 170 can and does move forward as the shooter moves downrange, but it's orientation always remains consistent.

 

If it did not; shooting at the shotgun targets in Stans example; I could legally point my firearm quite nearly completely straight uprange toward the posse members and still be within my own so called 170.

 

There is nothing wrong with that scenario or design, simply that the shooters must be aware of the 170 and how closely that they are coming to it when attacking a setup that is slightly different.

But make no mistake, the shooter engaging shotgun thru those windows is bordering on , if not already breaking the 170.

 

 

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Allot has been said about this topic, and I am going to ad my 2 cents worth

 

On “normal stages” I agree that the 170rule only moves forward with the shooter and does not change angle with the position of the shooter or the targets
I also understand that there are ranges where stages can be set with 2 very clear different firing lines,

Problem we have now is how we keep this save, understandable and the same for all,

The two example stages Sante Fe River Stan posted are good examples

Stage 1 is the one with the 90 degree angle board walk, I see 2 options for this,
One, decide that they are 2 firing lines with 2 separate 170 cones, but be very sure that everyone understands this and make sure that spotters can’t be in the 170 of the shooter(a mistake is easy to make, so tape, ropes or gates or something)
Two, and in haven’t seen this option mentioned yet, give them 1, 170 cone for all of the targets, this may mean that the center of the 170 is not the center of the shooting bay but a point in the center of all the targets, again make real sure everyone understands where the 170 cone is and make sure spotters can’t get into the 170

Stage 2 is the one with the tables to the left and right on an angle
In this situation I have to agree with smokestack and others who stated this, the 170 is 85 degrees left and right from the center of the back berm.

 

As to the start of the thread, I also see much of what I think are 170 violations as a shooter, as a spotter, as a TO and on all the YouTube and Facebook videos.

As an TO or PL I always call people on it and had to give some folks the SDQ for it(most of the times after they were warned before), but I’ve been called on more than a couple of times by people on the stage or people later on social media saying that I missed a 170 violation

In some occasions, they were right, but in a lot they were wrong, please to all of you, remember these 2 things

  • The TO is only human, and especially with the real fast shooters you have less than the blink of an eye to decide if it was on or over the edge, (and if you are not sure you have to decide in favor of the shooter)

  • The TO is up close with the shooter and has the best position(or at least one of the best positions, spotters could be in a good position to) to see if it was a 170 violation or not, I will go out on a limb and say that it is almost impossible to call the difference between a 165 or 180 from places like the loading or unloading tables or on videos(as they are almost always shot on an angle to the firing line)

Just my 2 cents

Dutch Bear

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6 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I wish I understood why this is so difficult for so many.

 

Visualize this...

The shooter is standing in a doorway within a wall that is on the firing line.  That wall is your 170.

--------l l---------

Anything on the downrange side of the wall is legal to shoot at. Anything on the uprange side of the wall is off limits.

 

Now visualize that doorway can move from side to side within that wall.

It doesn't change anything tho, no matter where the doorway is; items in front of the wall are legal - items to the rear are not. The wall itself remains your current 170.

--l l------------- or ------------l l---

 

Now visualize that the wall itself can move downrange along with the shooter; keeping the shooter within that doorway all the time.  As the shooter moves downrange, the wall moves downrange and the items ahead of the wall remain legal while the items which may have previously been legal become off limits as they transition from in front of the wall to behind the wall. The 170 (our wall) has indeed moved and will continue to move as the shooter does.

BUT... The 170 does not EVER change it's orientation with the range. It can only move forwards and backwards. 

In the example that Stan posts (and I have nothing but respect for Stan), the 170 is a constant from left to right across the stage (an imaginary wall), if the shooter has to point their gun at or behind where this imaginary wall would be; they have violated the 170. That 170 can and does move forward as the shooter moves downrange, but it's orientation always remains consistent.

 

If it did not; shooting at the shotgun targets in Stans example; I could legally point my firearm quite nearly completely straight uprange toward the posse members and still be within my own so called 170.

 

There is nothing wrong with that scenario or design, simply that the shooters must be aware of the 170 and how closely that they are coming to it when attacking a setup that is slightly different.

But make no mistake, the shooter engaging shotgun thru those windows is bordering on , if not already breaking the 170.

 

 

Creeker,

Without having 2 170's perpendicular to each other on the L shaped stage it would be impossible to to shoot it without breaking the 170 being used for the rifle and pistol.

 

Keep in mind this on a berm that has 4 sides and small opening in the back corner to enter. It is very safe and well within the rules to have two different firing lines.....the spotters and posse are in the area between the loading.unloading tables and the boardwalk. At no time is any one ever in either of the shooters 170's.

 

for those of you without Facebook access this is PWB's quote.

 

Quote

PaleWolf Brunelle FWIW...I've shot on some stages that had more than one "firing line"/170 relative to multiple target arrays...some at 90 degrees to each other.
Best to have "caution tape" or some such to keep spectators and spotters out of the "kill zones".

 

Stan

stage3.jpg

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1 hour ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

stage3.jpg

 

I've shot that stage at that match.  Wasn't a problem then and isn't a problem now.

 

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And probably less than 1% of all stages at cowboy ranges have berms that encircle the whole stage.  

Agreed that with this special construction (a "Shoot House") you have good safety for the posse.

Almost no other club could duplicate this economically.  It's a special case, and has been handled well for it's special geometry.  Agree with PWB as well, that safety tape or a complete barrier off the right end of the right L leg would ensure that as the shooter is engaged on the left L, no one is wandering around and behind the right Leg.

 

Good luck, GJ

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7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I wish I understood why this is so difficult for so many.

 

Visualize this...

The shooter is standing in a doorway within a wall that is on the firing line.  That wall is your 170.

--------l l---------

Anything on the downrange side of the wall is legal to shoot at. Anything on the uprange side of the wall is off limits.

 

Now visualize that doorway can move from side to side within that wall.

It doesn't change anything tho, no matter where the doorway is; items in front of the wall are legal - items to the rear are not. The wall itself remains your current 170.

--l l------------- or ------------l l---

 

Now visualize that the wall itself can move downrange along with the shooter; keeping the shooter within that doorway all the time.  As the shooter moves downrange, the wall moves downrange and the items ahead of the wall remain legal while the items which may have previously been legal become off limits as they transition from in front of the wall to behind the wall. The 170 (our wall) has indeed moved and will continue to move as the shooter does.

BUT... The 170 does not EVER change it's orientation with the range. It can only move forwards and backwards. 

In the example that Stan posts (and I have nothing but respect for Stan), the 170 is a constant from left to right across the stage (an imaginary wall), if the shooter has to point their gun at or behind where this imaginary wall would be; they have violated the 170. That 170 can and does move forward as the shooter moves downrange, but it's orientation always remains consistent.

 

If it did not; shooting at the shotgun targets in Stans example; I could legally point my firearm quite nearly completely straight uprange toward the posse members and still be within my own so called 170.

 

There is nothing wrong with that scenario or design, simply that the shooters must be aware of the 170 and how closely that they are coming to it when attacking a setup that is slightly different.

But make no mistake, the shooter engaging shotgun thru those windows is bordering on , if not already breaking the 170.

 

 

Your example is not a 170. That's a 180. I don't say that to be geometrically specific. I'm pointing it out for a reason. On both Stan's and my example stages, there is absolutely no way to shoot it without breaking the original 170, though it might be possible without breaking a 180, especially if there is some sort of barrier. The fact of the matter is that in both our cases the stage has been shot safely for years and the 170 wasn't broken because there were two distinct 170's on one stage. 

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2 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

stage3.jpg

This stage is brilliantly unique, and as you stated there aren’t that much bays where this can be done (safely) with berms on all 4 sides, would love to shoot it (at least) once

 

Problem is, how (or if) does this translate to the stage were the tables are at 45 degree angles,

Do we (as range master) define every firing line in the stages descriptions that could give discussions that at least would give clarity

The Whole discussion has at least learned me that if I’m a PL in a match briefing, I have to ask ( if it isn’t mentioned)if there are stages there designed with multiple firing lines at different angles

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Assuming the stage setup of P targets at a 45 deg. angle is either a shooter's choice of engaging left or right P targets or 5 on one array and 5 on the other, the crossdraw shooter still has to be aware of the potential for breaking the 170 drawing or holstering. I've shot duelist with a crossdraw (shoot rt. handed) for most of the last 12 yrs, and have had to considered that numerous times because, to my knowledge, I have NEVER experienced a stage with more than on 170 line. Because my crossdraw is on my left side, I can't imagine shooting the left array if shooter's choice, OR, run to the left one 1st and pull the revolver in the crossdraw 1st and not breaking the 170. It's the same as moving from rt. to left to engage P targets & pulling that gun on the way just 'cause I almost always pull the crossdraw 1st. Crossdraw shooters may encounter some decisions to be made just because they choose to wear a crossdraw & potentially breaking the 170 is sure one of them. Does that make sense??

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10 minutes ago, dutch bear said:

This stage is brilliantly unique, and as you stated there aren’t that much bays where this can be done (safely) with berms on all 4 sides, would love to shoot it (at least) once

 

Problem is, how (or if) does this translate to the stage were the tables are at 45 degree angles,

Do we (as range master) define every firing line in the stages descriptions that could give discussions that at least would give clarity

The Whole discussion has at least learned me that if I’m a PL in a match briefing, I have to ask ( if it isn’t mentioned)if there are stages there designed with multiple firing lines at different angles

For me......on standard 3 sided berms the 170 should be parallel to the back berm....see the image below......in that image the tables are at angle but the shooter will still have to follow the 170 that is parallel to the back berm. 

example stage layout.jpg

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2 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

The L shaped stage could be shot on a standard 3 sided berm if it were deep enough for the layout to be angled.......referencing PWB's comments......no one could be downrange of the red lines.

 

Stan

Long deep bay.jpg

 

What differentiates the decision to move the 170 when the L shape stage is used? The target angle is the same on the pistols for both drawings and the shooter's angle of their pistols would be the same. Of course, assuming this is used in the same berm. Curious for my own understanding of the decision.

Thx. :)

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1 hour ago, Shamrock Sadie said:

 

What differentiates the decision to move the 170 when the L shape stage is used? The target angle is the same on the pistols for both drawings and the shooter's angle of their pistols would be the same. Of course, assuming this is used in the same berm. Curious for my own understanding of the decision.

Thx. :)

What would be compelling for me would the "spotters". When dealing with the walls, windows and doors, as opposed to an open bay, the ability to spot may be impaired unless the spotters were able to be closer to the line of fire....let's say behind and to the right of the the shooter when the shooter is engaging the rifle and pistol targets. If the 170 ran from side to side like in the other 3 sided bay example the spotters would be in the 170 which is no bueno......so if the bay had enough depth you could offer two firing lines to facilitate spotting the stage correctly......I see this as an extreme rarity but doable situation if desired.

 

Stan 

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3 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

What would be compelling for me would the "spotters". When dealing with the walls, windows and doors, as opposed to an open bay, the ability to spot may be impaired unless the spotters were able to be closer to the line of fire....let's say behind and to the right of the the shooter when the shooter is engaging the rifle and pistol targets. If the 170 ran from side to side like in the other 3 sided bay example the spotters would be in the 170 which is no bueno......so if the bay had enough depth you could offer two firing lines to facilitate spotting the stage correctly......I see this as an extreme rarity but doable situation if desired.

 

Stan 

Yeah...spotting would be an issue. It's been a while since we've been to the Orlando match (need to put it on our go to list again). I remember having to find a good place to spot for the L shaped stage you've been talking about and being aware of the stage's 170. That was a fun stage setup though.

I'm w/ PWB on the 170 moving depending on the target angle (and putting up barriers when necessary). Extreme angles could be safety issues when dealing with spotter location, loading/unloading tables, and spectators. Of course match directors should factor in side berm height, target angles, and possible movable 170s when writing stages. It's always something, right? LOL :)

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I don't understand ANYONE's consternation over the application of the 170º rule... afterall, it's only been in place since about 2000!  Just how many of you were competing under the old 180º rule?

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6 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Did someone ask for this?

 

170.JPG

Thanks Allie, I couldn't remember the distance from 170 at 10'-15' in Stans' drawing some years back. I do remember that it was alot less than most folks think, it's in inches not feet. The shooter would just about have to be at the 180 mark to call it. Good Luck:)

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48 minutes ago, Shamrock Sadie said:

Yeah...spotting would be an issue. It's been a while since we've been to the Orlando match (need to put it on our go to list again). I remember having to find a good place to spot for the L shaped stage you've been talking about and being aware of the stage's 170. That was a fun stage setup though.

I'm w/ PWB on the 170 moving depending on the target angle (and putting up barriers when necessary). Extreme angles could be safety issues when dealing with spotter location, loading/unloading tables, and spectators. Of course match directors should factor in side berm height, target angles, and possible movable 170s when writing stages. It's always something, right? LOL :)

 

Honestly it's not that common......but completely doable.

 

I would probably keep it limited to stages with a 360 or almost 360 type berm. 

 

Stan

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"The 170 degree is a cone that emanates down range from the barrel of a firearm." This is the description/clarification  of the 170 degree that was made in 2009 by the ROC.  In the case of a pistol, as long as the end of the barrel is in the holster the 170 rule is not in effect.

 

With that said, some stage designs make it very difficult to accommodate a traditional interpretation of the 170. We have such a stage at our range, called Hell Town. There are many possible shooting positions, but most of them are through doors/windows that run along the boardwalk the full length of the bay, in a FULL size town. The shooter moves along the board walk in a Down Range direction and fires through these doors/windows at targets that are perpendicular to what would generally be considered directly Down Range. Maneuvering these targets up range slightly from the selected shooting position would help to comply with the traditional 170 description. But, the area where the targets are placed is cut out of the the side of the mountain and encompasses the town and boardwalk. It's kinda like a alcove. No splatter can reach the Up Range direction from these targets. The targets on this stage are mostly shot at 180 degrees to the directly Down Range position. Yet they are safe because they are in a carved out section of the mountain. When Drawing and re-holstering on this stage it is very difficult to stay within the traditional 170 guidelines. The bottom line is this: DON'T POINT YOUR GUN AT ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO SHOOT! ANY over zealous R.O. could use this stage to DQ at least half the shooters if he/she were unable to use some Judgement and apply a little common sense.  I suppose that if it became necessary One could stretch the imagination and consider the Alcove a completely different Down Range position and go from there, but the simplest thing to do is to just use your head. Some folks seem to want to make things tougher than they need to be.  

phpqqrbhdPM.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

"The 170 degree is a cone that emanates down range from the barrel of a firearm." This is the description/clarification  of the 170 degree that was made in 2009 by the ROC.  In the case of a pistol, as long as the end of the barrel is in the holster the 170 rule is not in effect.

 

With that said, some stage designs make it very difficult to accommodate a traditional interpretation of the 170. We have such a stage at our range, called Hell Town. There are many possible shooting positions, but most of them are through doors/windows that run along the boardwalk the full length of the bay, in a FULL size town. The shooter moves along the board walk in a Down Range direction and fires through these doors/windows at targets that are perpendicular to what would generally be considered directly Down Range. Maneuvering these targets up range slightly from the selected shooting position would help to comply with the traditional 170 description. But, the area where the targets are placed is cut out of the the side of the mountain and encompasses the town and boardwalk. It's kinda like a alcove. No splatter can reach the Up Range direction from these targets. The targets on this stage are mostly shot at 180 degrees to the directly Down Range position. Yet they are safe because they are in a carved out section of the mountain. When Drawing and re-holstering on this stage it is very difficult to stay within the traditional 170 guidelines. The bottom line is this: DON'T POINT YOUR GUN AT ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO SHOOT! ANY over zealous R.O. could use this stage to DQ at least half the shooters if he/she were unable to use some Judgement and apply a little common sense.  I suppose that if it became necessary One could stretch the imagination and consider the Alcove a completely different Down Range position and go from there, but the simplest thing to do is to just use your head. Some folks seem to want to make things tougher than they need to be.  

phpqqrbhdPM.jpg

I've got to get my butt down that a way and shoot that range. It sounds like a lot of fun.

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46 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

"The 170 degree is a cone that emanates down range from the barrel of a firearm." This is the description/clarification  of the 170 degree that was made in 2009 by the ROC.  In the case of a pistol, as long as the end of the barrel is in the holster the 170 rule is not in effect.

 

With that said, some stage designs make it very difficult to accommodate a traditional interpretation of the 170. We have such a stage at our range, called Hell Town. There are many possible shooting positions, but most of them are through doors/windows that run along the boardwalk the full length of the bay, in a FULL size town. The shooter moves along the board walk in a Down Range direction and fires through these doors/windows at targets that are perpendicular to what would generally be considered directly Down Range. Maneuvering these targets up range slightly from the selected shooting position would help to comply with the traditional 170 description. But, the area where the targets are placed is cut out of the the side of the mountain and encompasses the town and boardwalk. It's kinda like a alcove. No splatter can reach the Up Range direction from these targets. The targets on this stage are mostly shot at 180 degrees to the directly Down Range position. Yet they are safe because they are in a carved out section of the mountain. When Drawing and re-holstering on this stage it is very difficult to stay within the traditional 170 guidelines. The bottom line is this: DON'T POINT YOUR GUN AT ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO SHOOT! ANY over zealous R.O. could use this stage to DQ at least half the shooters if he/she were unable to use some Judgement and apply a little common sense.  I suppose that if it became necessary One could stretch the imagination and consider the Alcove a completely different Down Range position and go from there, but the simplest thing to do is to just use your head. Some folks seem to want to make things tougher than they need to be.  

phpqqrbhdPM.jpg

I am not trying to make anything any tougher than it needs to be but when "common sense" overrides a major safety rule, there becomes an opportunity for inconsistency between different posses. 

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1 hour ago, Smokestack said:

I am not trying to make anything any tougher than it needs to be but when "common sense" overrides a major safety rule, there becomes an opportunity for inconsistency between different posses. 

I certainly am not promoting or encouraging anyone to not follow the rules. I am a strong supporter of the rules, and believe that consistency is Paramount.  I helped to write the rules!  No R.O. can just take it upon his/her self to do what ever they want. They are charged with following the rules. However, there may very well come a time when Common Sense dictates a need to cut some slack.  IMO a good R.O. will be able to ascertain when that becomes necessary. The original rule was 180 Degrees... it was changed to 170 Degrees because of the controversy and difficulty in making a call. Virtually everyone agrees that 180 was the limit, beyond that the shooter would be pointing the gun "Uprange"... But it was so difficult to tell, that it was moved to 170 in order to assist in making the call. At 170, it is getting close to the 180 point. So is 171 a SDQ and 170 not a SDQ? How about 172, or 173? Can you accurately distinguish one or two degrees..... IMO it is doubtful, but it is much easier to distinguish 10 degrees... if the muzzle is pointing beyond 180 degrees there is no doubt that the rule has been broken and it is a safety issue. When I make a judgement call I must consider the fact that I can not accurately determine a degree or two, but I can see the 180 just fine, when compared to the 170. At 180 degrees, there is no room for "Slack". IMO at 170, there is. When I see a shooter repeatedly get into that zone, I caution him... if that does not correct the problem, I squint my eyes and find that I am able to see the one or two degrees a little better.  JMO and CERTAINLY not anything official....... other than "Common Sense".

 

Snakebite

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1 hour ago, Smokestack said:

I am not trying to make anything any tougher than it needs to be but when "common sense" overrides a major safety rule, there becomes an opportunity for inconsistency between different posses. 

Respectfully I don't think it's been established that having two firing lines overrides a major safety rule.  Nowhere is it stated that there has to be only one firing line and we have a comment from the spokesperson for the ROC (PWB) saying it's acceptable (from FB).

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9 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

For me......on standard 3 sided berms the 170 should be parallel to the back berm....see the image below......in that image the tables are at angle but the shooter will still have to follow the 170 that is parallel to the back berm. 

example stage layout.jpg

That was the berm design I had in my mind when I made my post. Another example of sharing my opinion without having all the facts.

 

Tho I do believe that in the other post with the L shaped design angled; I would write that with a rear berm parallel 170 as well.

Shoot shotgun, move laterally to window for rifle, move diagonal downrange along boardwalk for pistols.

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Respectfully I don't think it's been established that having two firing lines overrides a major safety rule.  Nowhere is it stated that there has to be only one firing line and we have a comment from the spokesperson for the ROC (PWB) saying it's acceptable (from FB).

What he said was that he has seen stages run that way. I then asked is he felt that they were in accordance with SASS rules and got no answer. I have shot stages with the big tent (eating and gathering area) completely within the shooters 170 and completely unprotected. Just because something has been done, does not make it right. For what it's worth, the stage Stan posted with the 4 berm bay looks very safe and fun. The others mentioned likely are too. 

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One of the 2x 170 stages was shot in an "FI-shaped" bay with full-height berms on the left, center, back, & right.

Pistols shot from the bottom of the F into the middle line.

Rifle shot from the same position into the back berm.

Shooter then moved downrange with shotgun; turned left into the top of the F (completely into the "sub-bay") & fired into the back of the F.

 

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On 5/1/2017 at 4:23 PM, Tennessee Trapper Tom said:

If properly checked at the loading table (where more emphasis should be placed) there won't be a sixth round. I've been to numerous matches where the loading table is not properly utilized and weapons had extra rounds

Agree 100% about loading table officers. Even the best of us get complacent and miss things. It also drives me nuts when I'm working the loading table and folks show their revolver with their finger inside the trigger guard and some even on the trigger.  I know, I know, if hammers not back.... so what. 

 

I also agree that calls (misses & 170 & P) are made more often on the newer/moderately fast shooters vs super fast shooters.  I felt like I'd "made it" when I was called clean and thought I'd had a miss or two.  I said, really?  

 

We have to just do the best we can and be FAIR.  If your buddy breaks the 170, call it!  If your buddy misses, call it. It's in all of our best interest.

 

Happy trails!

Scarlett

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On 5/1/2017 at 1:23 PM, Tennessee Trapper Tom said:

The most common sense thing I've ever read on the wire. If you got very strict and harass on the 170 you would DQ most shooters out there. It is and always will be a subjective call unless it is done by a slow shooter and obvious. I see it all the time by faster shooters but trying to call would create headaches for everyone. I also agree that reholstering a pistol with all rounds fired and hammer on an empty chamber is hardly a safety violation. If properly checked at the loading table (where more emphasis should be placed) there won't be a sixth round. I've been to numerous matches where the loading table is not properly utilized and weapons had extra rounds

The lack of assigning a Loading Table Officer is IMO the NUMBER 1 safety problem in the game today. People have loaded guns and are very often sweeping someone at the loading table. It is a SDQ to fail to follow loading table procedures, and the LTO job is to CHECK YOUR GUNS. I am absolutely astounded that so many LARGE matches do not follow the rules in regards to the Loading Tables. The lack of a Loading table officer is IMO a much bigger issue than splitting hairs on the 170.

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