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170* Rule


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When I see the rule broken, I call it. If I am unsure, I don't, but either way, when I see someone flirting with the limit I will take time to attempt to help them correct their technique and or their stance to make what feels natural, less likely to break the rule. Helping them in this way, I think, goes a lot further than a verbal warning. 

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2 hours ago, Snakebite said:

Well I agree with ACE... I've had so many folks over the years tell me that "This" or "That" happened and no one did anything about it. I try to not look at things with a microscope. If it is a flagrant breaking of the rules and I see it, I call it.... I don't split hairs. If that approach doesn't please some of the folks, then they need to take on the job of being a T.O. and then they can make those close calls, until nobody will be on their posse. Rules is rules is rules.... we all need to enforce them, but there are few Absolutes in this game. Sometimes those in the Peanut Gallery see more than those on the field of play. JMO

 

Snakebite

I do a lot of TO'ng since most folks resist being a TO for reasons of their own.  At Fort Miller a couple of weeks ago, I made a couple of unpleasant calls that the spotters missed so this isn't a case where I won't make calls.  I would just like for folks to step up and help out.

 

The 170* rule has not been reliably enforced for some time and it seems like folks are taking advantage of that fact or have become more complacent because no one gets called.   The consensus here seems to be "You make the call" but there in lies the problem, no one is making the calls.   

 

Here's what I am going to do.  When I am TO'ng, I'm going to call the 170* violations from the loading table through the shooting string, no warnings, no side talk, just call violations.  I probably won't be asked to TO after a bit but if that's what folks want, I'll be their huckleberry.  

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1 hour ago, Smokestack said:

 

By that logic, why not do away with the unloading table and all the safety rules which apply there and just let folks unload at their carts. The guns are empty already right? 

This isn't the same thing at all and you know it.  

How many times have unloaded guns killed someone?  I don't want to be that guy who overlooked a safety rule and had it turn out bad.  I've been there and don't want to be there again.

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1 hour ago, Smokestack said:

When I see the rule broken, I call it. If I am unsure, I don't, but either way, when I see someone flirting with the limit I will take time to attempt to help them correct their technique and or their stance to make what feels natural, less likely to break the rule. Helping them in this way, I think, goes a lot further than a verbal warning. 

I suggested getting the TO involved to correct complacent behavior or technique since not all safety officers have your experience, knowledge of the rules, or ability to confront shooters.  Sometimes it takes a safety officer to see what the TO can't due to positioning or prop placement.  Either way, the object is to correct deficiencies in shooter movement/technique, not to punish them unnecessarily.  Unless obviously blatant, I usually watch for consistency (multiple events) in breaking the 170* prior to saying anything as it is a technique issue the shooter is going to have to train him/herself away from.

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8 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

 

Here's what I am going to do.  When I am TO'ng, I'm going to call the 170* violations from the loading table through the shooting string, no warnings, no side talk, just call violations.  I probably won't be asked to TO after a bit but if that's what folks want, I'll be their huckleberry.  

Howdy Jailhouse, I agree with most of what yer talking about. During our safety meeting I go over the 170 with my cane as a prop for long guns, showing the 170 applies vertically from our toes to the sky, as well as horizontally, and how care must be taken during  lateral or downrange movement. The drawing on page 36 of ROI is a good reminder, Santa Fe River Stan had one several years ago that had the distance from 180 at 15' or 20', I'd love to find that one again. I also mention the 170 for reholstering and at the loading tables.

         However I don't think it is a violation to carry the long guns straight up from LT to line and line to UT, I know we've been over this in the past. For ranges with up range UT "muzzles up please move to the UT" (ROI pg 44)  applies here. The phrase "generally up and slightly down range" (ROI pg 41) applies mostly to common firing lines. Thanks for the reminder, we all need to be consistent. Good Luck:)

 

Jefro:ph34r:Relax-Enjoy

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“Here's what I am going to do.  When I am TO'ng, I'm going to call the 170* violations from the loading table through the shooting string, no warnings, no side talk, just call violations.  I probably won't be asked to TO after a bit but if that's what folks want, I'll be their huckleberry.”

No doubt that a direct challenge like that will get their attention. DQ calls are indeed suppose to be made at the time that they happen, I’m pretty sure that is not what most folks want but it is the way a DQ call should be made. It can then be dealt with immediately.  There is no direct guidance for giving a “Warning” before DQing someone for a 170 breach but any Good T.O. would caution a shooter if he/she is repeatedly coming close to breaking it. Like I have said… a Blatant breach must be dealt with, and usually is. It is the close calls that slide.   Calls involving the 170 at the loading table/unloading table are especially difficult since very few folks understand just where the 170 is when at these positions. I also doubt that many R.O.s understand it either. We have the same issue when the scenario runs down range rather than across the stage.  In the case of the LT/ULT it usually requires the shooter point the Long Guns up rather that attempt to stay within a 170 cone which would often allow the gun to be pointed at other folks. Many folks loose sight of the goal that the 170 rule was established for, and that is to keep the guns pointed in a safe direction. Sometimes the 170 degree Cone does not full fill that requirement. A little judgement on the part of the Shooter and the Range Officers is required if we are going to have any reasonable solution.  Some folks use too much latitude in their judgment, while some become a “Hard Ass” and don’t allow enough. It is balance that is to be sought and it is hoped that all those who take on the position of being a Range Officer will use.  Some will find that balance and some will not, and even have an “I’ll get you” attitude. IMO the latter make very poor R.O.s.   

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21 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Many folks loose sight of the goal that the 170 rule was established for, and that is to keep the guns pointed in a safe direction. Sometimes the 170 degree Cone does not full fill that requirement. A little judgement on the part of the Shooter and the Range Officers is required if we are going to have any reasonable solution.

Yep, one thing that Stan's drawing showed was just how close to 180 you are at 10'-15'. We have often heard "I could tell what caliber it was" or "I could see it was a 20 gauge" from a someone standing close to the shooter on or near the firing line. Even though you may be able to see the muzzle the shooters muzzle may still be far enough from the 180 for a no call. If yer standing close enough to see it take a step back;)

 

33 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

a Blatant breach must be dealt with, and usually is. It is the close calls that slide.

I agree, we must remain focused when we TO. Good Luck:)

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2 hours ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

Howdy Jailhouse, I agree with most of what yer talking about. During our safety meeting I go over the 170 with my cane as a prop for long guns, showing the 170 applies vertically from our toes to the sky, as well as horizontally, and how care must be taken during  lateral or downrange movement. The drawing on page 36 of ROI is a good reminder, Santa Fe River Stan had one several years ago that had the distance from 180 at 15' or 20', I'd love to find that one again. I also mention the 170 for reholstering and at the loading tables.

         However I don't think it is a violation to carry the long guns straight up from LT to line and line to UT, I know we've been over this in the past. For ranges with up range UT "muzzles up please move to the UT" (ROI pg 44)  applies here. The phrase "generally up and slightly down range" (ROI pg 41) applies mostly to common firing lines. Thanks for the reminder, we all need to be consistent. Good Luck:)

 

Jefro:ph34r:Relax-Enjoy

Straight up to slightly downrange whenever moving loaded long guns is what I was taught in RO class when I first became an RO I/RO II.  My problem is when the muzzles are 10-15* uprange or when the shooter turns uprange when leaving the LT, clearly in violation of the 170*, are not addressed.  At minimum the shooter should be told to "Check Your Muzzles".  The 170* should be addressed at every safety meeting but is not in about half of the matches I attend.  Getting back to basics will make everyone safer.  That was a good reminder for me, thank you.

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This was written 6 years ago...most of it still applies today (rulebook page references are likely out-of-date)

170 RULE

 

from page 2:

"COMMON SENSE should be used to determine the safest direction to point muzzles when moving from the LT to the stage & from the stage to the ULT. UP has already been determined to be considered acceptable. The PRIMARY consideration is to avoid SWEEPING anyone with the muzzle of ANY firearm at ANY time."

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Last year, at Michigans Range War I was warned that I had swept a spotter.  I have been using a cross draw holster since I started shooting this sport.  I am always careful of the 170 rule, and don't do the shuffle, but twist my body when drawing and reholstering the guns.  I am a left hand shooter.  After thinking about the warning, I thought about it, and it was the spotter that broke my 170...bad stage design.  The stage started rifle in hand shot from a gate, targets straight out in front of the shooter, carry rifle to shotgun stage that was at a 45 degree angle to the left of the rifle stage, move to the pistol stage that was a little distance forward of the shotgun stage.  The pistol stage was at a 45 degree angle to the right of the rifle stage.  The spotter instead of being directly behind me was off to my right, and I was directly in front of the pistol targets that were at a 45 degree angle, if I would have extended both my arms straight out from my body, the spotter would have been in front of my firing line...............his bad.

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4 minutes ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

Last year, at Michigans Range War I was warned that I had swept a spotter.  I have been using a cross draw holster since I started shooting this sport.  I am always careful of the 170 rule, and don't do the shuffle, but twist my body when drawing and reholstering the guns.  I am a left hand shooter.  After thinking about the warning, I thought about it, and it was the spotter that broke my 170...bad stage design.  The stage started rifle in hand shot from a gate, targets straight out in front of the shooter, carry rifle to shotgun stage that was at a 45 degree angle to the left of the rifle stage, move to the pistol stage that was a little distance forward of the shotgun stage.  The pistol stage was at a 45 degree angle to the right of the rifle stage.  The spotter instead of being directly behind me was off to my right, and I was directly in front of the pistol targets that were at a 45 degree angle, if I would have extended both my arms straight out from my body, the spotter would have been in front of my firing line...............his bad.

It's hard to picture the stage design based on your description but the 170 only moves up and down range with the shooter, it never turns, even if you do. 

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2 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

It's hard to picture the stage design based on your description but the 170 only moves up and down range with the shooter, it never turns, even if you do. 

We have a stage at our local annual called the jail break. You start in a jail cell, fetch a key with a broom handle, unlock yourself and go. Part of the stage has shot gun targets that are 90 degrees off from the downrange rifle and pistol targets. Basically off to the right hand side. I don't see how it would be possible to engage them without breaking the 170 if the 170 only only moves up and down range. Unless I am understanding you incorrectly. Basically set up like this where R is rifle, P is pistol and S is shotgun:

 

R R R R R R R R R R                         P P P

 

                                                                                         S

                                                                                         S

 

                                                                                         S

                                                                                         S

 

                                         

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3 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

We have a stage at our local annual called the jail break. You start in a jail cell, fetch a key with a broom handle, unlock yourself and go. Part of the stage has shot gun targets that are 90 degrees off from the downrange rifle and pistol targets. Basically off to the right hand side. I don't see how it would be possible to engage them without breaking the 170 if the 170 only only moves up and down range. Unless I am understanding you incorrectly. Basically set up like this where R is rifle, P is pistol and S is shotgun:

 

R R R R R R R R R R                         P P P

 

                                                                                         S

                                                                                         S

 

                                                                                         S

                                                                                         S

 

                                         

I do t understand your picture but, the 170 never turns. It only moves forward and back. If there are targets off to the side, you have to engage them before you move too far forward or you will break the 170. 

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7 minutes ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

If you are correct that the 170 rule never turns, I would have to shoot the pistol targets over my right shoulder to not break the 170.

I guess I am not understanding your stage set up. The targets are behind you?

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Lets see if I can explain this.  Rifle targets, straight out in front of me, shotgun targets at a 45 degree angle to the left of the rifle targets, pistol targets at a 45 degree angle to the left of the original rifle targets.   OK, your are my right spotter, for the rifle, I extend both arms straight out from my sides, you are standing behind my right hand, everything is ok, now I do a 45 degree right face for the pistol and extend my arms, where are you now?  You are within my 170, and you are forward of my firing line. Hope that explains it.

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1 minute ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

Lets see if I can explain this.  Rifle targets, straight out in front of me, shotgun targets at a 45 degree angle to the left of the rifle targets, pistol targets at a 45 degree angle to the left of the original rifle targets.   OK, your are my right spotter, for the rifle, I extend both arms straight out from my sides, you are standing behind my right hand, everything is ok, now I do a 45 degree right face for the pistol and extend my arms, where are you now?  You are within my 170, and you are forward of my firing line. Hope that explains it.

Yes, I understand now. The 170 does not turn with you. unless the shooter somehow moved further downrange than you (closer to the back berm) he was not in your 170. 

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4 hours ago, Snakebite said:

No doubt that a direct challenge like that will get their attention. DQ calls are indeed suppose to be made at the time that they happen, I’m pretty sure that is not what most folks want but it is the way a DQ call should be made. It can then be dealt with immediately. 

And while I agree the DQ should be called immediately, I have called a ceasefire where the shooter begins to turn uprange with a loaded weapon.  Fortunately I was close enough to stop them from breaking the 170*.  Since then, I tend to wait until they are done shooting to address safety issues as a TO.

There is no direct guidance for giving a “Warning” before DQing someone for a 170 breach but any Good T.O. would caution a shooter if he/she is repeatedly coming close to breaking it. Like I have said… a Blatant breach must be dealt with, and usually is. It is the close calls that slide.   

I have been in this game for over 20 years and have yet to see anything other than a warning given for 170* violations.  I'm sure DQ's are called but I have not witnessed it.  I always give the benefit of doubt to the shooter if it is a subjective call whether misses, P's, or safety violations.  My conundrum is when a shooter consistently breaks the 170* whether by muscle memory or lack of attention.  This isn't over a one-time event, this is the same shooter doing the same thing every time.  Have we all become so complacent that we don't care enough?

Calls involving the 170 at the loading table/unloading table are especially difficult since very few folks understand just where the 170 is when at these positions. I also doubt that many R.O.s understand it either. We have the same issue when the scenario runs down range rather than across the stage.  In the case of the LT/ULT it usually requires the shooter point the Long Guns up rather that attempt to stay within a 170 cone which would often allow the gun to be pointed at other folks. Many folks loose sight of the goal that the 170 rule was established for, and that is to keep the guns pointed in a safe direction. Sometimes the 170 degree Cone does not full fill that requirement.

As a general rule, the LT and UT has been good.  My example of the shooter turning uprange was when we were loading on the right side of the stage.  Muscle memory, brain fade, or lack of attention caused the shooter to turn uprange when it was his turn to go to the firing line.  Most generally, folks carry their long guns with muzzle up and move forward with the muzzles pointed slightly downrange.  When a shooter turns uprange with their guns in that position, naturally they will break the 170*.  The TO watched the shooter and said nothing.

A little judgement on the part of the Shooter and the Range Officers is required if we are going to have any reasonable solution.  Some folks use too much latitude in their judgment, while some become a “Hard Ass” and don’t allow enough. It is balance that is to be sought and it is hoped that all those who take on the position of being a Range Officer will use.  Some will find that balance and some will not, and even have an “I’ll get you” attitude. IMO the latter make very poor R.O.s.

No one wants to be the bad guy so we start to let things slide.  More than a bunch of times, I've witnessed TO's apologize to shooters for making a penalty call.  It's tough but it needs to be done and we shouldn't have to apologize for shooter errors.  Being a TO is a tough, thankless job.  If nothing else comes out of this thread, maybe the RO's, TO's, and shooters stay on task to keep everyone safe so the fun can continue.      

 

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39 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

We have a stage at our local annual called the jail break. You start in a jail cell, fetch a key with a broom handle, unlock yourself and go. Part of the stage has shot gun targets that are 90 degrees off from the downrange rifle and pistol targets. Basically off to the right hand side. I don't see how it would be possible to engage them without breaking the 170 if the 170 only only moves up and down range. Unless I am understanding you incorrectly. Basically set up like this where R is rifle, P is pistol and S is shotgun:

 

R R R R R R R R R R                         P P P

 

                                                                                         S

                                                                                         S

 

                                                                                         S

                                                                                         S

 

                                         

Using this diagram, if the shooter moves forward of the bottom SG target, he/she has broken the 170* if he/she engages it.  If the spotter is behind the shooter and behind the lower SG target, he/she is not in your 170*.

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You guys can't say the 170 never moves.........here is an example of a stage we have in Orlando. It's a boardwalk with multiple doors and windows. it definitely has 2 170's. The rifle and pistol are in one plane and the shotgun is in another. Without that you could never shoot this stage.

 

Stan

Publication1.jpg

 

pretty sure this is what RK was trying to illustrate......

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2 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Using this diagram, if the shooter moves forward of the bottom SG target, he/she has broken the 170* if he/she engages it.  If the spotter is behind the shooter and behind the lower SG target, he/she is not in your 170*.

 

20 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Yes, I understand now. The 170 does not turn with you. unless the shooter somehow moved further downrange than you (closer to the back berm) he was not in your 170. 

It's hard to draw it the right way just using a keyboard and some letters. I wish I could set it up better to get the right visual. But between each set of 2 knockdown shotgun targets is a make shift wall. So the targets have to be engaged straight on, thus the 170 has to turn with you or else every single person at the match gets a sdq right. Jim, yes the spotters follow and move with the shooter. So when the shooter engages the shotgun target, the spotters are now behind the shooter and behind the shotgun targets. After engaging the shotgun and moving to the pistol targets, everything shifts right back to a "normal" stage.

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Where I have seen the most discussion is a set up like this.......Shooter starts behind the two tables with the rifle. Instructions say to make safe on either table in front of the pistol targets. Shoot pistols then go shoot shotgun. the tables, with side walls,  are angled towards the side berms to allow for safe downrange movement with the rifle staged on them. Some shooters want the 170 to follow the angle of the table and it does not.......as that would effectively allow the shooter to point the firearms uprange.

stagepic.jpg

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The firing line almost always needs to be perpendicular to straight-down-range direction.  The firing line at those angled tables can be described as wherever the shooter stands to shoot, perpendicular to the straight-down-range direction.  Usually it is hard to argue about where the straight-down-range direction is, and most of the time you can even agree on what perpendicular means.  :o  If you do that, then shooters don't end up with muzzles pointed back up range, regardless of that table angle.  

 

If you have to, put in a round table.:lol:  They won't be able to find 170 degrees from anything on a round table.

 

Good luck, GJ

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2 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

RO I pg 30, #1

so are you referring to the definition of the 170 in the OLD RO1?

 

if so......are you trying to say we aren't allowed to use this stage design?

 

Where does it say you can't have 2 different firing lines?

 

We are talking about a L shaped walled building with windows and doors......the shotgun targets HAVE to be engaged through windows. The shotgun is stage in the window pointing at the shotgun targets.

 

Are you going to call a 170 violation when I stage my gun?

 

Stan

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I can't currently find the RO I on the SASS website, it's been replaced by the RO I Student Handbook which is nothing like the RO I manual I'm used to.  I've looked through the SHB, the RO I (old copy I have) and the RO II  all I can find is this (from the RO I Student Handbook "The 170 rule means that the muzzle of firearm (sic) must always be straight downrange +/- 85 in any direction.


The graphic that Stan posted indicates that there are two downrange directions, one for the shotgun and one for the rifle and pistols.  I've shot stages like this before, I don't see how you call a 170 here unless the shooter broke the shotgun 170 while shooting from that position or broke the rifle/pistol 170 while shooting from that position.

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33 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

so are you referring to the definition of the 170 in the OLD RO1?

 

if so......are you trying to say we aren't allowed to use this stage design?

 

Where does it say you can't have 2 different firing lines?

 

We are talking about a L shaped walled building with windows and doors......the shotgun targets HAVE to be engaged through windows. The shotgun is stage in the window pointing at the shotgun targets.

 

Are you going to call a 170 violation when I stage my gun?

 

Stan

I would question that stage design as able to be shot without breaking the rules. If I were to go to a match like that I would want to be certain that everyone is being allowed to break the 170 and if so that's good enough for me provided that it is not causing a safety issue (I am sure that your stage is safe). Beyond that, when in Rome...

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I've seen stages like this at State matches.  In fact I seem to remember seeing Stan shoot one where you started at a table with your rifle and shotgun staged in front of you.  Engage rifle and shotgun targets, then turn 90 degrees to your left and either run 10 yards or so to a fence to engage the pistol targets, or just shoot them from where you started.  Of course Stan proceeds to shoot from his original position at pistol targets that are at least 16 yards away, and gets them all.  I chickened out and ran to the fence to shoot from there.  I'm pretty sure that was a State match, maybe SC?

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21 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

I would question that stage design as able to be shot without breaking the rules. If I were to go to a match like that I would want to be certain that everyone is being allowed to break the 170 and if so that's good enough for me provided that it is not causing a safety issue (I am sure that your stage is safe). Beyond that, when in Rome...

NO ONE IS BREAKING THE 170....unless you can show me where the rules say there is only 1 firing line for each course of fire.

 

There is a 170 for the rifle and pistol and then you transition to another 170 for the shotgun.

 

Was done at the Florida State Match from 2001 thru 2012....every year........without issue.

 

Stan

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We normally shoot at least one stage designed like this at EOT.  Recently 2 or even 3 stages now that the Jersey Lilly and Hot Tamale's stages have been built.   The center table is often a set of hay bales.

 

Often a rifle is shot from one of the uprange tables, and a shotgun from the other.  If real tables are used, boards are screwed to table tops to show the farthest angles that guns can be staged / restaged for safe down range movement.   It is easy for almost all the EOT shooters to be able to navigate this safely, to avoid staging a gun that "sweeps" the TO or shooter as they go down range, and to prevent restaging a long gun so that it breaks the 170 (as measured using straight-down-range as the "base line", regardless of whether the uprange shooting positions are built at right angles to straight down range).   TO just has to be willing to firmly require the shooter to restage the gun between the guide boards.

 

It's safe if done correctly.

 

Good luck, GJ 

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3 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Where I have seen the most discussion is a set up like this.......Shooter starts behind the two tables with the rifle. Instructions say to make safe on either table in front of the pistol targets. Shoot pistols then go shoot shotgun. the tables, with side walls,  are angled towards the side berms to allow for safe downrange movement with the rifle staged on them. Some shooters want the 170 to follow the angle of the table and it does not.......as that would effectively allow the shooter to point the firearms uprange.

stagepic.jpg

 

Then there is the angle of the pistol targets (not the table) for this stage. Looks like there are 2 ways to look at this 170 discussion depending on what stage is shown. If a 90 degree angle (L-shaped stage) as in Orlando, then 2 170's. But in this stage where the pistol targets are angled diagonally and the shooter is shooting towards the side of the berm (and not towards the back of the berm), then only 170 in line with the back of the berm? Hmmm. Shooter would have to be cognizant of the spotters and spectators that would be in their 170 when shooting the pistols, I guess.

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I can't currently find the RO I on the SASS website, it's been replaced by the RO I Student Handbook which is nothing like the RO I manual I'm used to.  I've looked through the SHB, the RO I (old copy I have) and the RO II  all I can find is this (from the RO I Student Handbook "The 170 rule means that the muzzle of firearm (sic) must always be straight downrange +/- 85 in any direction.


The graphic that Stan posted indicates that there are two downrange directions, one for the shotgun and one for the rifle and pistols.  I've shot stages like this before, I don't see how you call a 170 here unless the shooter broke the shotgun 170 while shooting from that position or broke the rifle/pistol 170 while shooting from that position.

http://www.sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.php

 

There is no longer an RO-I Manual, only an RO-I course guide which is essentially a guide to the RO-I course powerpoint slide presentation.

Sass is working towards having only one (1) book to look in for the rules.

 

 

 

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Thanks Ace!  

 

I know where those are, but take a look at the link for the ROI, it's not what it used to be and I can't find a version of the original other than one I saved as a PDF a while back.

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