Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

170* Rule


Recommended Posts

Not wanting to cause a Sh&t storm or pick on cross draws but have often wondered why 170* violations are not called more often.  I was recently at a great annual match where there were consistent and even some blatant 170* violations but nothing was called.  I must include myself in the problem but in the past, all I get is that F-U look from experienced shooters, the "I didn't break the 170* response, or a non-response from the posse marshal when addressed.  

 

I often see shooters do the hand switch method of holstering their cross draw revolver and break the 170* by pointing the barrel at themselves when holstering.  The reason this is happening is because the switch is done away from the body so the natural inclination is to point the muzzle towards the shooter as the gun is moved towards the holster.  This is not as common when holstering with the shooting hand as long as the holster is correctly positioned or when the shooter switching hands brings the weapon to their body in a vertical position before driving it down.  

 

Many of these folks are fast, competent, and champion shooters so it is difficult to see it happen.  I even watched a video where a shooter drew his cross draw as he moved right to left and was clearly pointing uprange as he moved but was not called on the 170*.  It was hard to see so I stopped the video in 1 sec increments to verify my suspicions.  It would be a big help to have a video taken where these shooters if they don't believe they are making errors can see what they are doing so they understand the observer isn't just being a hard ass.

 

My point here is, if we are not going to enforce the rule, then do away with it when it comes to holstering an empty weapon.  That being said, we must become more strict when drawing.  Sometimes not wanting to be the bad guy or the hard ass just hast to happen. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 158
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Agree pretty much with all your observations and points.  Suggestions on how to accomplish it?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Post script: 

Here's one suggestion that might make it clearer to the Timer Operator about when a 170 breakage occurs with a shooter wearing a cross draw.

 

For the revolver part of the stage, Timer Operator would see the 170 error more clearly if they stood on the "weak" side of the shooter instead of the strong side.   You might try positioning, just on cross draw shooters, so the TO stands on the cross draw holster side and watches that draw and reholster operation more closely.    Then report back if that makes things easier to spot and thus more defensible when you call it.

 

GJ

Link to post
Share on other sites

First and foremost - if YOU observe a 170 violation - Call it.

If you are unhappy with the response from the posse marshal - elevate your complaint.

And if you receive no satisfaction after that - YOU have to decide if you want to continue to patronize shoots that do not adhere to your opinions on safety.

 

BUT...

Even in your posting - your phrasing is confusing.

Paragraph #1

Consistent and blatent 170 violations not being called.  If YOU did not call them - who's fault is that?

And if YOU are seeing consistent and blatent violations AND everyone else is ignoring them or not seeing them...  

Is there a chance, YOU are not seeing exactly what you think you are?

Paragragh #2

Breaking the 170 and pointing the gun at themselves are two completely seperate issues and have zero to do with one another.

Paragraph #3

A pistol is visible "CLEARLY pointing uprange" - but it was "hard to see" and required you to slow a video to ONE second increments to be sure it occurred?

 

My point is it seems you may have an issue with cross draw holsters and that they are not adhering to what you believe is required for their use. 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Agree pretty much with all your observations and points.  Suggestions on how to accomplish it?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Post script: 

Here's one suggestion that might make it clearer to the Timer Operator about when a 170 breakage occurs with a shooter wearing a cross draw.

 

For the revolver part of the stage, Timer Operator would see the 170 error more clearly if they stood on the "weak" side of the shooter instead of the strong side.   You might try positioning, just on cross draw shooters, so the TO stands on the cross draw holster side and watches that draw and reholster operation more closely.    Then report back if that makes things easier to spot and thus more defensible when you call it.

 

GJ

If you stand on the weak side of a cross draw and they are breaking the 170, you might just be putting yourself in harms way. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If 170's were called for everyone holstering a revolver and the barrel points at some part of their body there wouldn't be any CAS matches...and I am not talking about Cross Draws, either.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

First and foremost - if YOU observe a 170 violation - Call it.

If you are unhappy with the response from the posse marshal - elevate your complaint.

And if you receive no satisfaction after that - YOU have to decide if you want to continue to patronize shoots that do not adhere to your opinions on safety.

 

BUT...

Even in your posting - your phrasing is confusing.

Paragraph #1

Consistent and blatent 170 violations not being called.  If YOU did not call them - who's fault is that?

And if YOU are seeing consistent and blatent violations AND everyone else is ignoring them or not seeing them...  

Is there a chance, YOU are not seeing exactly what you think you are?

Paragragh #2

Breaking the 170 and pointing the gun at themselves are two completely seperate issues and have zero to do with one another.

Paragraph #3

A pistol is visible "CLEARLY pointing uprange" - but it was "hard to see" and required you to slow a video to ONE second increments to be sure it occurred?

 

My point is it seems you may have an issue with cross draw holsters and that they are not adhering to what you believe is required for their use. 

 

 

 

 

I see your point, but I have to ask: if the 170 rule is about safety, then does it matter how quickly something unsafe happens? 

 

Clearly the risks are low, as I don't hear many stories of anyone getting shot by a 170 rule break, but the point is still that the gun is being pointed in unsafe direction. Not sure whether it matters that it was unsafe for 1 second or three. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Gunbutcher said:

 

If you stand on the weak side of a cross draw and they are breaking the 170, you might just be putting yourself in harms way. 

 

And you would probably be more willing to call and penalize it like the serious danger that it CAN become.

 

Our game is based upon the presumption that is it PERFECTLY SAFE to stand anywhere behind (uprange) from the firing line and not be in danger from a discharge.  Now you are acting like that is not true at some of our matches.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ten degrees of gray.

 

SHB p. 25

 

22. The restrictions against breaking the downrange 180º angle apply to ALL HOLSTERS and METHODS of DRAW/REHOLSTER. This allowance applies to ALL types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I see a lot more shooters attempting to reholster their strongside and missing the holster pointing it behind them. Yet, I've yet to see it called.

Link to post
Share on other sites

And I am about a million more times concerned about the draw of a loaded gun than I am the holstering of a revolver full of fired cases and hammer down on one.

 

Good luck, GJ

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

And you would probably be more willing to call and penalize it like the serious danger that it CAN become.

 

Our game is based upon the presumption that is it PERFECTLY SAFE to stand anywhere behind (uprange) from the firing line and not be in danger from a discharge.  Now you are acting like that is not true at some of our matches.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Sometimes it isn't "perfectly safe" and a call should be made. As for me, I will be on strong side making that call. I err on the side of caution because none in this sport is perfect. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

First off sweeping one's ownself with any gun at any time is and always has been a NO call. May it remain so. Cross draw or straight hang matters not, still a no call.

 

Back when we were fighting the cone war I suggested that we adopt what I call The Natural Draw instead of either the cone or what we have now. Doing so would negate any concerns or subjective calls when drawing or re-holstering. Basically it means that so long as the hammer is not cocked and the finger is off the trigger the shooter may draw and re-holster safely as folks have been doing it for over 150 years regardless of the 170. It got no traction more's the pity...

 

Basically, the lack of calls on 170 violations when holstering and re-holstering means we have de facto adopted the Natural Draw already anyway. Folks know what they are doing and we do it pretty dang well and do not need many if any subjective and selectively enforced  hard ass170 violations slowing down and gumming up the game. Everyone knows even if not admitted to , that a big name shooter has much less chance of having it called than a newbie is. We should have adopted the cone but the lynch mob was not about to have that sanity. We should adopt the Natural Draw but no one but me has ever wanted to even discuss it...

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Lone Dog, SASS #20401 said:

First off sweeping one's ownself with any gun at any time is and always has been a NO call. May it remain so. Crosee draw or straight hang matters not still a no call.

 

Back when we were fighting the cone war I suggested that we adopt what I call The Natural Draw instead of either the cone or what we have now. Doing so would negate any concerns or subjective calls when drawing or re-holstering. Basically it means that so long as the hammer is not cocked and the finger is off the trigger the shooter may draw and re-holster safely as folks have been doing it for over 150 years regardless of the 170. It got no traction more's the pity...

 

Basically, the lack of calls on 170 violations when holstering and re-holstering means we have de facto adopted the Natural Draw already anyway. Folks know what they are doing and we do it pretty dang well and do not need many if any subjective and selectively enforced  hard ass170 violations slowing down and gumming up the game. Everyone knows even if not admitted to , that a big name shooter has much less chance of having it called than a newbie is. We should have adopted the cone but the lynch mob was not about to have that sanity. We should adopt the Natural Draw but no one but me has ever wanted to even discuss it...

If they break the 180 in the process of reholstering and sweeping themselves it is not a no call, it is a stage DQ, an allowance is given up to 180 for reholstering

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Lone Dog, SASS #20401 said:

First off sweeping one's ownself with any gun at any time is and always has been a NO call. May it remain so. Cross draw or straight hang matters not, still a no call.

 

Back when we were fighting the cone war I suggested that we adopt what I call The Natural Draw instead of either the cone or what we have now. Doing so would negate any concerns or subjective calls when drawing or re-holstering. Basically it means that so long as the hammer is not cocked and the finger is off the trigger the shooter may draw and re-holster safely as folks have been doing it for over 150 years regardless of the 170. It got no traction more's the pity...

 

Basically, the lack of calls on 170 violations when holstering and re-holstering means we have de facto adopted the Natural Draw already anyway. Folks know what they are doing and we do it pretty dang well and do not need many if any subjective and selectively enforced  hard ass170 violations slowing down and gumming up the game. Everyone knows even if not admitted to , that a big name shooter has much less chance of having it called than a newbie is. We should have adopted the cone but the lynch mob was not about to have that sanity. We should adopt the Natural Draw but no one but me has ever wanted to even discuss it...

The most common sense thing I've ever read on the wire. If you got very strict and harass on the 170 you would DQ most shooters out there. It is and always will be a subjective call unless it is done by a slow shooter and obvious. I see it all the time by faster shooters but trying to call would create headaches for everyone. I also agree that reholstering a pistol with all rounds fired and hammer on an empty chamber is hardly a safety violation. If properly checked at the loading table (where more emphasis should be placed) there won't be a sixth round. I've been to numerous matches where the loading table is not properly utilized and weapons had extra rounds

Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

Ten degrees of gray

12 minutes ago, Lone Dog, SASS #20401 said:

I did not say breaking the 170 was a no call, I said sweeping onesowndangself at any time with any gun is a no call.

SHB p. 25

 

22. The restrictions against breaking the downrange 180º angle apply to ALL HOLSTERS and METHODS of DRAW/REHOLSTER. This allowance applies to ALL types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs.

You can sweep yourself all day long as long as you don't break the 170, the second you break the 170 even if you swept yourself, its a DQ, because you broke the 170 not because you swept yourself, saying that sweeping yourself at any time is always a no call is not the case.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

First and foremost - if YOU observe a 170 violation - Call it.

If you are unhappy with the response from the posse marshal - elevate your complaint.

And if you receive no satisfaction after that - YOU have to decide if you want to continue to patronize shoots that do not adhere to your opinions on safety.

 

BUT...

Even in your posting - your phrasing is confusing.

Paragraph #1

Consistent and blatent 170 violations not being called.  If YOU did not call them - who's fault is that?

And if YOU are seeing consistent and blatent violations AND everyone else is ignoring them or not seeing them...  

Is there a chance, YOU are not seeing exactly what you think you are?

Paragragh #2

Breaking the 170 and pointing the gun at themselves are two completely seperate issues and have zero to do with one another.

Paragraph #3

A pistol is visible "CLEARLY pointing uprange" - but it was "hard to see" and required you to slow a video to ONE second increments to be sure it occurred?

 

My point is it seems you may have an issue with cross draw holsters and that they are not adhering to what you believe is required for their use. 

 

 

 

 

+1

I get this all the time....... So and So is breaking the 170 when ______________________________

 

If YOU see it then CALL IT. If you THINK you saw then you didn't see it.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Assassin said:

I see a lot more shooters attempting to reholster their strongside and missing the holster pointing it behind them. Yet, I've yet to see it called.

 

If you see it, are YOU calling it??

Or are you just a disinterested observer?

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

If you see it, are YOU calling it??

Or are you just a disinterested observer?

I'm sure you've seen it too. Did you call it? Actually, I've seen it many times at large shoots when
I was just observing and waiting for my posse to start shooting. Without evidence to back up my observation

or concurring witnesses I just let it go.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Agree pretty much with all your observations and points.  Suggestions on how to accomplish it?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Post script: 

Here's one suggestion that might make it clearer to the Timer Operator about when a 170 breakage occurs with a shooter wearing a cross draw.

 

For the revolver part of the stage, Timer Operator would see the 170 error more clearly if they stood on the "weak" side of the shooter instead of the strong side.   You might try positioning, just on cross draw shooters, so the TO stands on the cross draw holster side and watches that draw and reholster operation more closely.    Then report back if that makes things easier to spot and thus more defensible when you call it.

 

GJ

Having supervised a difficult bunch of Type A folks for 22 years, my suggestion would be to get all TO's to be on the same page in that they are the ones to make a 170* call.  It always works better if a supervisor addresses issues than a peer as it were.  If a spotter sees a violation, and all spotters should be watching for safety issues, he/she needs to speak to the TO.  The situation can be addressed at the time or the TO can make it a point to watch the shooter the next go around to get a second opinion before making a call or addressing borderline issues.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

First and foremost - if YOU observe a 170 violation - Call it.

I admit to being part of the problem, as is stated in my original post, but only after many unsuccessful attempts to address the situation.

If you are unhappy with the response from the posse marshal - elevate your complaint.

And if you receive no satisfaction after that - YOU have to decide if you want to continue to patronize shoots that do not adhere to your opinions on safety.

Right again and I have walked away from clubs for safety issues.  As for my opinion on safety, I have been a certified rangemaster for 21 years for a large LEO organization.  Safety when running a line of 15 weapons going off at one time with lateral movement mixed in is paramount and the #1 priority that I have been trained to observe and required to be recertified every five years.  Perhaps that is why I take this more personally. 

BUT...

Even in your posting - your phrasing is confusing.

Paragraph #1

Consistent and blatent 170 violations not being called.  If YOU did not call them - who's fault is that?

Again, I admit to being at fault for the reasons as stated above.  

And if YOU are seeing consistent and blatent violations AND everyone else is ignoring them or not seeing them...  

Is there a chance, YOU are not seeing exactly what you think you are?

I would not have started this post if there was a chance I was mistaken at what I was seeing.  I make it a point to watch the shooter more than once just in case I was mistaken the first time.  Again, I am someone who is highly trained in observation of safety violations and watch much more than the targets.  I believe the spotters may need to be reminded to watch the shooter's movement as well as hits/missess.

Paragragh #2

Breaking the 170 and pointing the gun at themselves are two completely seperate issues and have zero to do with one another.

Not true.  You may have misunderstood my explanation.  This isn't a case of sweeping your foot because of a wide stance or your hand coming in front of the muzzle.  This specific example is when the shooter is pointing the muzzle uprange and towards his/her hips when deviating from 180* in holstering from away from the body using the weak hand holding the revolver from the topstrap.

Paragraph #3

A pistol is visible "CLEARLY pointing uprange" - but it was "hard to see" and required you to slow a video to ONE second increments to be sure it occurred?

In the video, the guy is fast and because of the setup and how he was moving, I thought I could see what happened but replayed the video multiple times to catch the movement as I saw it.  

My point is it seems you may have an issue with cross draw holsters and that they are not adhering to what you believe is required for their use. 

I am not a fan of cross draws but that doesn't mean I have a problem with them if they are used correctly.  I have watched many National Champions use cross draws as intended and they are impressive to watch.  It is not my belief in how cross draws are to be used, it is the complacency at which we have evolved to in enforcing the rules as written.  

 

I apologize if this has struck a nerve with you.  It was not the reason I started the post.  The intent is to bring focus to an issue that is in violation of the rules, one that no one wants to address.

 

4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Gunbutcher said:

 

If you stand on the weak side of a cross draw and they are breaking the 170, you might just be putting yourself in harms way. 

From my observations, the draw is generally good, it's the re-holster that becomes the violation as the shooter tries to keep up speed.  I am not afraid of an unloaded gun so why not take the 170* rule away from holstering?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

And you would probably be more willing to call and penalize it like the serious danger that it CAN become.

 

Our game is based upon the presumption that is it PERFECTLY SAFE to stand anywhere behind (uprange) from the firing line and not be in danger from a discharge.  Now you are acting like that is not true at some of our matches.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

It is inherently dangerous to be around firearms and I have been to matches where there are serious safety issues with an occasional shooter.  I have called the 170* on drawing revolvers and have had private conversations with new shooters to drive the point home at what they are doing.  The rules were designed to make it as safe as possible for the shooter and the spotters behind the shooter.  If more calls were made and upheld, folks might be more willing to make the call.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Assassin said:

I see a lot more shooters attempting to reholster their strongside and missing the holster pointing it behind them. Yet, I've yet to see it called.

My point exactly.  Again, I am guilty so how do we start getting this rule into play?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tennessee Trapper Tom said:

The most common sense thing I've ever read on the wire. If you got very strict and harass on the 170 you would DQ most shooters out there. It is and always will be a subjective call unless it is done by a slow shooter and obvious. I see it all the time by faster shooters but trying to call would create headaches for everyone. I also agree that reholstering a pistol with all rounds fired and hammer on an empty chamber is hardly a safety violation. If properly checked at the loading table (where more emphasis should be placed) there won't be a sixth round. I've been to numerous matches where the loading table is not properly utilized and weapons had extra rounds

You're absolutely right.  I wasn't onboard with the "cone" but the return of the gun to leather breaking the 170* could be removed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

+1

I get this all the time....... So and So is breaking the 170 when ______________________________

 

If YOU see it then CALL IT. If you THINK you saw then you didn't see it.

 

This is a simple statement and an observer should be sure of what he/she sees.  That being said, one spotter who continually makes calls that no one else is watching for or has the backbone to call will get them ostracized in short order.  That is why I suggested the spotter bring it to the TO's attention for a second opinion.     

Link to post
Share on other sites

I seem to have stirred the pot pretty good with this one unfortunately.  This is the best game going but we have rules to follow folks that are not hard to adhere to.  These rules weren't written by me but I abide by them as best I can.  We have become complacent hence have slipped in safety.  This isn't just about cross draws and holstering, this also includes all the times the shooters are carrying their long guns to the line with their muzzles pointed past the 170* uprange.  We as a whole need to get back to basics.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

+1

I get this all the time....... So and So is breaking the 170 when ______________________________

 

If YOU see it then CALL IT. If you THINK you saw then you didn't see it.

 

We can talk about the need to take action, but that's all it is, talk.  

 

Ace said it, if you see it call it. I know in the metro Atlanta area and southeastern State matches I go to the 170 is enforced. I've seen others make the call and I've made it a few times myself.  Matter of fact a couple of weeks ago I stopped a shooter from breaking the 170 vertically with his pistol.

Link to post
Share on other sites

At the Four Corners Regional a shooter restaged a shotgun on a prop that looked like it was 180 degrees from downrange.  I was a spotter and did not allow the shooter to retrieve the shotgun until the TO and other spotters examined the situation.  The consensus was it may have broken the 170 but with surveyors equipment we couldn't be sure, so no call.  However, the discussion served as a warning to the shooter he was getting careless about the 170 rule.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Lone Dog, SASS #20401 said:

...so long as the hammer is not cocked and the finger is off the trigger the shooter may draw and re-holster safely as folks have been doing it for over 150 years regardless of the 170...

↑ ↑ ↑  This should be the safety standard adopted.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I agree with ACE... I've had so many folks over the years tell me that "This" or "That" happened and no one did anything about it. I try to not look at things with a microscope. If it is a flagrant breaking of the rules and I see it, I call it.... I don't split hairs. If that approach doesn't please some of the folks, then they need to take on the job of being a T.O. and then they can make those close calls, until nobody will be on their posse. Rules is rules is rules.... we all need to enforce them, but there are few Absolutes in this game. Sometimes those in the Peanut Gallery see more than those on the field of play. JMO

 

Snakebite

Link to post
Share on other sites

im probably not one to talk as i use a cross draw - i shift to prevent and give up the time willingly to stay safe , i seldom see the blatant breaking of this rule , i dont have the laser geometry to be precise but i do have a concept of it , i think im in the court of calling what you see with the authority taking the decision , but if there is wanton disregard one has to step up to the potential safety issue , 

 

im going to add that in my case the SASS folks i shoot with are really safe folks , if ones just looking for penalties im not the guy to discuss it with , 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

  I am not afraid of an unloaded gun so why not take the 170* rule away from holstering?

 

By that logic, why not do away with the unloading table and all the safety rules which apply there and just let folks unload at their carts. The guns are empty already right? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 said:

There is a reason I shoot strong side.

If you watch closesly, there are as many if not more violations with double strong side shooters than there are with crossdraws. It is a technique problem, not a leather problem despite the slant that the rule book exhibits. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.