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170* Rule


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23 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I agree with your analogies of personal sweeps that are within the 170* however, when the firearm is pointed at your hip as you holster at an angle, it violates the 170* as the muzzle is in fact pointed uprange past the 170* when it is being done before the muzzle enters the holster.  Just because you are in front of the firearm doesn't negate the fact it has broken the 170*.  

 

Correct my if I am wrong but at one time, gunfighters weren't allowed to pump their sixguns.  Has that changed?

If there was a rule about gun fighters pumping it predates me.  

 

In fact you can point a gun at yourself while holstering without breaking the 170. I wear my holsters at 2 and 10, they have a muzzle forward cant, so it is possible to have the muzzle of the gun up range of hips as I'm holstering down and forward (downrange).  Also when holstering the 170 isn't in affect, the 180 is.

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47 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I am not suggesting we need more rules but there are those who are having difficulty understanding what I am trying to say.  I was using the safety cone statement as a way to describe the need to be flexible at the LT/ULT when interpreting safety.  If we went by the book definition that the muzzle must be pointed in a safe direction, why do we have the 170* rule?  The rule simply gives specific parameters of what the ROC considers safe and leaves less to individual interpretation.

I am going to respectfully suggest an RO refresher course and bow out of this conversation. There is not much more I can say that the post by PaleWolf has not already addressed. 

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

If there was a rule about gun fighters pumping it predates me.  

This is the rule I was referring to.  "At no time is it acceptable for either revolver to be held in an unsafe position (e.g., one revolver behind the other)."  This is subjective of course but is in the ROII manual page 10 under categories.

In fact you can point a gun at yourself while holstering without breaking the 170. I wear my holsters at 2 and 10, they have a muzzle forward cant, so it is possible to have the muzzle of the gun up range of hips as I'm holstering down and forward (downrange).  Also when holstering the 170 isn't in affect, the 180 is.

Understood but my example is when the firearm is being returned to leather in an uprange movement towards the body with the muzzle breaking the 170* or if you prefer, the 180*.  If I can figure out how to make a screenshot, I will post a pic of what I am referring to.

 

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It's clear this topic has run its course so I will back away as my case has been stated and good information has been passed to all who chose to follow it.  I appreciate everyone's candor on the subject and have enjoyed the lively debate.

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On 5/1/2017 at 11:31 PM, Smokestack said:

 

 

The title says - 170* - 

 

To make the degrees symbol simply hold down the ALT button while pressing 0176...... 170°

 

^_^

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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29 minutes ago, Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274 said:

 

The title says - 170* - 

 

To make the degrees symbol simply hold down the ALT button while pressing 0176...... 170°

 

^_^

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

I always wondered how to do that, thanks. :-)

 

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5 hours ago, Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274 said:

 

The title says - 170* - 

 

To make the degrees symbol simply hold down the ALT button while pressing 0176...... 170°

 

^_^

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

ALT and 176 on the number keypad. If you don't have a separate numbers keypad you may need NUMLOC to get graphics characters.

Graphics codes >>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_437

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20 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

ALT and 176 on the number keypad. If you don't have a separate numbers keypad you may need NUMLOC to get graphics characters.

Graphics codes >>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_437

 

Hmmmm

 

I do ALT+0176 = ° .... I do ALT+176 = ░

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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As usual, you are correct sir !:)

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On 5/9/2017 at 8:03 PM, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

The only way I see your logic when holstering a strong side firearm.  When holstering a crossdraw, when canting the weapon towards your hip breaks the 170* as in my example.  I have watched many shooters with Dun Lop's disease that are able to stay within the 170* cone.

Not necessarily.  Your statements don't allow for shooter's that "blade" themselves to the target, IOW, use the "Weaver' stance, etc.  Whether a shooter sweeps themselves or not, breaks the 170º or not, is often a function of what model firearm they're using, where on the belt their holster is located, their method of holstering along with the aforementioned stance.

 

Each and every case of a suspected violation of the 170º needs to be considered in the totality of the circumstances.  BTW, your aqua font color is hard to see. 

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18 hours ago, Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274 said:

 

Hmmmm

 

I do ALT+0176 = ° .... I do ALT+176 = ░

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Hmmm... on my confuser, it's ALT & 167, Alt + 0176 = °.  Yep... size matters! :o

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39 minutes ago, Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274 said:

 

?? - Ok... 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

º is a tad bigger than °, or maybe just a heavier line...  guess the humor in it was greater on my end.  ;)

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7 minutes ago, Griff said:

º is a tad bigger than °, or maybe just a heavier line...  guess the humor in it was greater on my end.  ;)

 

Oh - Ha! I got ya! :D

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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2 hours ago, Griff said:

Not necessarily.  Your statements don't allow for shooter's that "blade" themselves to the target, IOW, use the "Weaver' stance, etc.  Whether a shooter sweeps themselves or not, breaks the 170º or not, is often a function of what model firearm they're using, where on the belt their holster is located, their method of holstering along with the aforementioned stance.

 

Each and every case of a suspected violation of the 170º needs to be considered in the totality of the circumstances.  BTW, your aqua font color is hard to see. 

I understand that sweeping oneself has no penalty, equipment affects the method a shooter uses to function with it, and that body parts are within the 170º at times.  Body parts within the 170º doesn't not mean the shooter is sweeping themselves, it just means body parts are within the plane. 

 

Canting the hips or adjusting a shooter's stance towards the targets gets the crossdraw holster within the 170º plane and works perfectly when holstering with the strong hand as the weapon is drawn back to the shooters mid-section then thrust across the torso <180º to enter the holster.  That's not always the case with a support hand holstering technique.

 

Picture this:  The shooter standing parallel to the firing line fires his/her support firearm with his/her strong hand, reaches over the top of the firearm to grasp the top strap to holster,  turns the firearm vertical (no more than 180º), brings the revolver back to his/her torso, then thrusts it down (still with the muzzle staying @ 180º/170º or more downrange) into the holster, no harm to foul as the shooter is staying within the rules.  Even if the shooter's holster is not angled to be within the 170º plane, as long as the revolver's horizontal plane remains within the 170º downrange as the muzzle enters the holster, the holstering action is within the rules irregardless of the angle needed to finish the return to leather.

 

This is where I believe the 170º rule gets broken.  As the shooter grasps the firearm and turns it vertical, if he/she does not bring it back to his/her torso first, the natural tenancy is to point the firearm towards the holster >180º uprange as it is brought back and down in the process of returning the firearm to leather.  It's simply how our joints want to work and makes the transition smooth.  The only time I really notice this is when the shooter begins the transition as soon as the last round goes downrange.  If they made the transition much closer to their chest, the geometry changes and helps keep the firearm within the 170º plane.

 

All that needs to happen is the shooter needs to be cognizant of the 170º plane and to train the muscle memory response to keep the firearm vertical.  I'm sure many shooters don't even realize they are doing it.  If they can't/won't respond to "schooling", unfortunately the penalty needs to be assessed, plain and simple.  

 

We as TO's need to pay more attention to shooter's on stage actions and make the  tough calls.  There can be no allowance for complacency on the firing line.

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We will call sweeping your self, in fact I was called on it myself. I had to tighten and brace the holster and learned to lift my left arm while doing the cross-draw dance.

Here in Canada, we have to be extra careful because of the firearm unfriendly nature of the people who are charged to enforce the government's rules about range operation, including the ones an inspector will make up on the spot, (which will be enforced)

I recall a CAS shooter, using a cross-draw dance, consistently sweeping themselves with a loaded firearm, because they were holding their holster when drawing. A video of the incident also revealed he was cocking at the same time. We felt it was a sure-fire accident waiting to happen, And around here, that would mean the shut-down of the entire range while a long, long investigation was carried out, affecting not just CAS, but all the other disciplines using the facilities: IPSC; rifle; Military etc. 

We have had inspectors with-hold annual approval because of too many cases or shotgun plastic wads on the range, impacts on the range floor, extra height to be added to berms previously approved and so on.

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On 5/10/2017 at 10:57 AM, Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274 said:

 

The title says - 170* - 

 

To make the degrees symbol simply hold down the ALT button while pressing 0176...... 170°

 

^_^

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

Or press option 0 on a Mac. 

Or press and hold 0 on an iPhone/iPad.

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