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BLACKFOOT SASS #11947

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A Ford made in Mexico is a Ford.

A Buick made in China is a Buick.

A John Deere made in Japan is a John Deere.

A Jeep made in China is a Jeep.

A BMW made in U.S.A. is a BMW.

 

Why isn't a Winchester made in Japan a Winchester?

 

Just asking

Blackfoot

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My Winchester is a Winchester (made by Miruko) it says Winchester on the barrel !!!

 

My Buick is made in Korea, engine and drive train made here, it's still a Buick!

 

My Colts are made in the USA, Yep...they're Colts!!!

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I think the problem some people have is that a Ford made in Mexico is still made by Ford, but in Mexico. The Winchesters made in Japan are not (technically) made by Winchester. It's not an issue of where they are made as much as it is who is making them. Not saying they aren't great rifles. Just trying to explain why some folks have a negative opinion of them.

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I believe it is a real Winchester.

 

The Winchester (and Browning) names are owned by FN (Fabrique Nationale) of Belgium. The 1873 is now made under license by Miroku in Japan for Winchester. So that would make it, in reality, a real Winchester.

 

Also, FN has ties to John Browning. It seems that John Browning's agreements with Winchester precluded him from having his rifles manufactured by any other company in the USA. However, it did NOT prevent him from having guns made elsewhere. Therefore the connection between John Browning and Fabrique National. That is why John Browning spent so much time at the end of his life in Belgium.

 

Last point, Winchester rifles and shotguns are make in a lot of different places. I don't hear anyone saying, "Oh, my Model xxx is not a real Winchester".

 

Happy Trails, Conejo.

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Apples grown in Florida are really Oranges!! :)

 

All the listed Automobile Manufacturers actually "Manufacture" something. :o

 

Winchester doesn't "Manufacture" anything. Hasn't for years. :ph34r:

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In reverse back in the 70's and early 80's Yamaha vertical pianos were made here in the USA!! First at the Everett factory in Indiana then in Thomaston,Georgia for a few years. Now all Yamahas are made in China except for their top of the line concert grand that's still made in Japan.

 

So was a USA made Yamaha still a Yamaha?? :blink:

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In reverse back in the 70's and early 80's Yamaha vertical pianos were made here in the USA!! First at the Everett factory in Indiana then in Thomaston,Georgia for a few years. Now all Yamahas are made in China except for their top of the line concert grand that's still made in Japan.

 

So was a USA made Yamaha still a Yamaha?? :blink:

 

^

Yeah... what he said.

 

Ya know... Miles Hye... I used to have some insurance from Mutual of Yamaha. Dang premiums got too high... had to drop it.

 

ts

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The new Jeep Renegade is 22% made in USA, 60% made in Italy and 18% in other (likely mostly electronics made in China).

If one believes that is the same as the CJ made mostly in the USA, then that is their opinion. It is not my opinion.

I have been to China and been forced to move jobs there making vehicle service lifts. I will not stand under a service lift made in China. The workmanship is poor, the materials are not on par with European or American materials and the design tolerances are wider than other sources.

Same reason that I will not own or shoot a Chinese cowboy gun.

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I agree that Winchester New Haven factory ceased manufacturing on March 31, 2006, but I believe that the FNH South Carolina factory has been producing Winchester guns since they were purchased by the group that owns all the different manufacturers and even though I have both Browning and Winchester levers made in Japan, they are Winchesters because the company is licensed to make them and sells them to Winchester who sells them to me. Some are made in US (S.Carolina) some not (Portugal - 1894's) and (Japan - most of the rest of the levers), all have my support.

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I believe it is a real Winchester.

 

The Winchester (and Browning) names are owned by FN (Fabrique Nationale) of Belgium. The 1873 is now made under license by Miroku in Japan for Winchester. So that would make it, in reality, a real Winchester.

 

Also, FN has ties to John Browning. It seems that John Browning's agreements with Winchester precluded him from having his rifles manufactured by any other company in the USA. However, it did NOT prevent him from having guns made elsewhere. Therefore the connection between John Browning and Fabrique National. That is why John Browning spent so much time at the end of his life in Belgium.

 

Last point, Winchester rifles and shotguns are make in a lot of different places. I don't hear anyone saying, "Oh, my Model xxx is not a real Winchester".

 

Happy Trails, Conejo.

Exactly, they are made "for" Winchester, not "by" Winchester. Therein lies the problem.

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Well then, let's call every gun we use with a short stroke or some other modification "not" the gun it is as there certainly were not modifications of any firearm in the 1800's! God I love how people "rain" on other peoples' parades around this wire! When an opinion negatively affects someone's post then it shouldn't be allowed, and I am not sure what makes a firearm expert to be able to determine whether a firearm is a Winchester, but since Winchester is legally liable for them and it says Winchester on the box and barrel, I say leave it alone and let the people who own them to have the right to call them a Winchester. You don't want one for whatever reason, so be it, but congratulate the person on their new gun and wish them a lot of hit targets!

 

Da#n, can't people just be happy for other people!

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Well then, let's call every gun we use with a short stroke or some other modification "not" the gun it is as there certainly were not modifications of any firearm in the 1800's! God I love how people "rain" on other peoples' parades around this wire! When an opinion negatively affects someone's post then it shouldn't be allowed, and I am not sure what makes a firearm expert to be able to determine whether a firearm is a Winchester, but since Winchester is legally liable for them and it says Winchester on the box and barrel, I say leave it alone and let the people who own them to have the right to call them a Winchester. You don't want one for whatever reason, so be it, but congratulate the person on their new gun and wish them a lot of hit targets!

 

Da#n, can't people just be happy for other people!

First of all, most of the firearms used in CAS are reproductions with varying degrees of authenticity. As long as you like your guns and they meet the rules who cares if they aren't 100% authentic?

 

Second, firearms were most certainly modified back in the 1800s, although short strokes and the like are more modern inventions. If you're trying to say that a Colt with action work is no longer a Colt, that argument won't hold water. That is a completely different argument from the issue being raised in this thread (i.e. who originally manufactured the firearm).

 

Lastly, I apologize if I hurt your feelings but I was simply answering the question raised in the original post and was not directing my comments towards anyone in particular. I respect your right to your opinion but suggesting that any potentially offensive opinion be banned from the wire is not a good idea in my opinion.

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Well then, let's call every gun we use with a short stroke or some other modification "not" the gun it is as there certainly were not modifications of any firearm in the 1800's! God I love how people "rain" on other peoples' parades around this wire! When an opinion negatively affects someone's post then it shouldn't be allowed, and I am not sure what makes a firearm expert to be able to determine whether a firearm is a Winchester, but since Winchester is legally liable for them and it says Winchester on the box and barrel, I say leave it alone and let the people who own them to have the right to call them a Winchester. You don't want one for whatever reason, so be it, but congratulate the person on their new gun and wish them a lot of hit targets!

 

Da#n, can't people just be happy for other people!

Not modifications of any firearms in the 1800's?? Hmm..let's see there were gunsmiths and they had tools!! I'm sure they "slicked up their guns". They didn't have short stroke kits etc. but they certainly had the knowledge and know how to file down mainsprings and tune up guns. Heck they even did that at the factories if requested. Remember the famous Bat Masterson ordered a Colt with light on the hammer and easy on the trigger and a higher front sight.

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Exactly, they are made "for" Winchester, not "by" Winchester. Therein lies the problem.

Why is "made for" a problem? A contract manufactured rifle with parts machined on well maintained CNC machines should be of higher quality and consistency than one with parts machined on very old machines. The only caveat is that the materials, heat treating, fit & finish are equal or equivalent.

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Come on Rye! A Winchester or a Colt back then was around $25, usually a month's salary., You bring up Bat Masterson who made a hell of a lot more than that, and how about Lucas McCain who had the big lever with the bolt that extended to a certain length would automatically fir his Winchester 92. But the average person didn't have money for a gunsmith to tear down and smooth out a gun, repair yes, smooth out, I doubt it. And there certainly weren't short stroke kits for 73's or pawl kits to allow your Colt cylinder to spin either way.

 

There were people who had a lot of special orders, engraving, and grip material for the Colts and barrel length and caliber for both Colts and Winchesters. I don't begrudge any current SASS shooter the modifications, not for me, as I think it takes away from the time I want to emulate, but that's me. It is also me that owns a Winchester made at an subcontractor's factory, and there is no reason to tell me I don't have a Winchester either.

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A regular conundrum. A Winchester ain't been made by "Winchester" for a VERY long time. Long before 2006! Let's call it 1981... when USRA bought the plant and made the rifles under license from Olin Corp... who'd bought Winchester in 1931.

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Come on Rye! A Winchester or a Colt back then was around $25, usually a month's salary., You bring up Bat Masterson who made a hell of a lot more than that, and how about Lucas McCain who had the big lever with the bolt that extended to a certain length would automatically fir his Winchester 92. But the average person didn't have money for a gunsmith to tear down and smooth out a gun, repair yes, smooth out, I doubt it. And there certainly weren't short stroke kits for 73's or pawl kits to allow your Colt cylinder to spin either way.

 

There were people who had a lot of special orders, engraving, and grip material for the Colts and barrel length and caliber for both Colts and Winchesters. I don't begrudge any current SASS shooter the modifications, not for me, as I think it takes away from the time I want to emulate, but that's me. It is also me that owns a Winchester made at an subcontractor's factory, and there is no reason to tell me I don't have a Winchester either.

Oh c'mon, they could have done a little "slicking up" themselves if they didn't have the cash to pay a gunsmith. There's plenty of shooters today who mess around with their guns both cowboy and modern! People weren't that much different than today! I've slicked up a few guns of my own and believe me I'm no gunsmith! BTW I never said there were short strokes or free spin pawls I said they had their guns "slicked up".

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I think the problem some people have is that a Ford made in Mexico is still made by Ford, but in Mexico. The Winchesters made in Japan are not (technically) made by Winchester. It's not an issue of where they are made as much as it is who is making them. Not saying they aren't great rifles. Just trying to explain why some folks have a negative opinion of them.

Amen .

Worded much better then I can say it !

 

If you like the Japan Copy ,

By all means,

Buy one and use it .

 

I like my Italian Copys .

 

But they all are Copys .

Just sayig .

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I believe it is a real Winchester.

 

The Winchester (and Browning) names are owned by FN (Fabrique Nationale) of Belgium. The 1873 is now made under license by Miroku in Japan for Winchester. So that would make it, in reality, a real Winchester.

 

Also, FN has ties to John Browning. It seems that John Browning's agreements with Winchester precluded him from having his rifles manufactured by any other company in the USA. However, it did NOT prevent him from having guns made elsewhere. Therefore the connection between John Browning and Fabrique National. That is why John Browning spent so much time at the end of his life in Belgium.

 

Last point, Winchester rifles and shotguns are make in a lot of different places. I don't hear anyone saying, "Oh, my Model xxx is not a real Winchester".

 

Happy Trails, Conejo.

The Winchester name is NOT owned by FN... It is owned by the OLIN Corporation... FN does own Browning and USRA, (who'd they'd bailed out in the early '90s and subsequently took over in the late '90s IIRC). But FN only uses the Winchester name under license from the Olin Corp. JMB's agreements with Winchester were for the outright purchase of his patents. Winchester had made it clear that they weren't interested in any designs for pistols. He'd already peddled pistol patents to FN. His agreements with FN included a royalty on each gun produced... When he took Winchester the patent on the 1899 patent for an autoloading shotgun he asked for that. Bennett refused. Browning then took the patent to Remington, but, (IIRC) the then President of Remington died and no one wanted to enter into an new agreement... He then contacted FN, & they snapped up the Auto 5.

 

You can convince yourself it's a Yugo... or any other thing... but, in actual fact, it's simply a close copy of the Winchester 1873 rifle, produced in a foreign country, by a foreign firm. It is not, a "Winchester", as those were built in a "Winchester" owned factory, by "Winchester" employees.

 

An argument could be mounted that my foreign produced close copy of the Winchester 1873 is closer to being a "real" Winchester as it uses the same internal and shaped, if not sized, internal parts as the original design. But that argument ultimately fails also... for the same reason.

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