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BLACKFOOT SASS #11947

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There's really no amount of senantics or justification that can change the fact that it says Winchester in the barrel. Thus it is in fact a Winchester period

If that's your story, stick to it... no one likes a quitter. (Said with my best tongue in cheek humor possible). :D:P:D;) It's just like that age old question of, "...when is a Winchester 94 not?" Answer: When's a Winchester 94AE. "Winchester" never made a model 94AE... USRA and now Miroku do... Just as you say... no amount of semantics or justification can change the fact that they're NOT made by "WINCHESTER" and therefore can't be a WINCHESTER. Yes, it's a "Winchester" mdl 1873, or close copy thereof... if one wants to be accurate, but it ain't one.

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Then I'm guessing Winchester is going to be suing somebody for putting their name on my barrel.

Winchester ain't going to be suing anyone... they don't make ANY guns anymore. And, yes, Olin Corp., who owns the Winchester name, licensed FN to produce those guns with the Winchester name on them... just as they do with all the other so-named firearms in current production... But, that distinction no more makes that 1873 a "Winchester" than mine.

 

And, having the name on the barrel, makes one feel just a little closer to the heritage that comes with the name. My 1885 and 1886 certainly ain't Winchesters... I happen to think they're nicer than those produced back in the day... but, they're certainly just a tad different.

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The Winchester name is NOT owned by FN... It is owned by the OLIN Corporation... FN does own Browning and USRA, (who'd they'd bailed out in the early '90s and subsequently took over in the late '90s IIRC). But FN only uses the Winchester name under license from the Olin Corp. JMB's agreements with Winchester were for the outright purchase of his patents. Winchester had made it clear that they weren't interested in any designs for pistols. He'd already peddled pistol patents to FN. His agreements with FN included a royalty on each gun produced... When he took Winchester the patent on the 1899 patent for an autoloading shotgun he asked for that. Bennett refused. Browning then took the patent to Remington, but, (IIRC) the then President of Remington died and no one wanted to enter into an new agreement... He then contacted FN, & they snapped up the Auto 5.

 

You can convince yourself it's a Yugo... or any other thing... but, in actual fact, it's simply a close copy of the Winchester 1873 rifle, produced in a foreign country, by a foreign firm. It is not, a "Winchester", as those were built in a "Winchester" owned factory, by "Winchester" employees.

 

An argument could be mounted that my foreign produced close copy of the Winchester 1873 is closer to being a "real" Winchester as it uses the same internal and shaped, if not sized, internal parts as the original design. But that argument ultimately fails also... for the same reason.

 

 

Well... Griff... there ya went and done it. Let's face it... yore just an ornery ol' coot that I happen to really like readin' his posts alot. hehehehe

 

However, you have not said or done anything to convince me, otherwise. I do like readin' yore contra-posts, alot.

 

But you fail to see that autos made in foreign country's... under their strict, socialistic labor and factory laws and tax systems... really belong to Ford, Chevy, etc.... who just happens to share in the profits from owning the "name" and the "design". Those country's benefit mucho... and the major auto manufactures benefit, indirectly. That's it.

 

Ta Da!!! There is no difference.

 

Winchesters... are... Winchesters. And besides... Miroku makes dang, fine products better than Winchester actually did... before they ended their U.S. production. (e.g.... the pre-64 Model 70's... vs. the later corner-cuttin' versions)

 

Why do you think Winchester ended their U.S. production... 'cause they was great?

 

From Mexico... to S. Korea... those countries own the car factories. Don't kid yoreself. If you think different... think 'bout the Beretta factory in Brazille... before it was "nationalized"... and became Taurus. Overnight.

 

ts

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Buick has a plant in China, it's still a Buick!

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Buick has a plant in China, it's still a Buick!

Yeah, and they use parts that aren't made by GM. It's more of an assembly plant, most of the parts aren't GM. They are made all over China by non GM manufacturers and non GM employees.

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Well... Griff... there ya went and done it. Let's face it... yore just an ornery ol' coot that I happen to really like readin' his posts alot. hehehehe

 

However, you have not said or done anything to convince me, otherwise. I do like readin' yore contra-posts, alot.

 

But you fail to see that autos made in foreign country's... under their strict, socialistic labor and factory laws and tax systems... really belong to Ford, Chevy, etc.... who just happens to share in the profits from owning the "name" and the "design". Those country's benefit mucho... and the major auto manufactures benefit, indirectly. That's it.

 

Ta Da!!! There is no difference.

 

Winchesters... are... Winchesters. And besides... Miroku makes dang, fine products better than Winchester actually did... before they ended their U.S. production. (e.g.... the pre-64 Model 70's... vs. the later corner-cuttin' versions)

 

Why do you think Winchester ended their U.S. production... 'cause they was great?

 

From Mexico... to S. Korea... those countries own the car factories. Don't kid yoreself. If you think different... think 'bout the Beretta factory in Brazille... before it was "nationalized"... and became Taurus. Overnight.

 

ts

Tenn, finally someone who gets it! But, as to the car analogy, who sez they are? I do have a true life Chevy... a 210 sedan made in '55. The '05 p/u, not so much... engine & trans from Canada, electronics and wiring from Mexico & China, but... at least it was assembled in TEXAS! A previous p/u was one of the last ones off the assembly line in CA... but even it had some parts from other places. I mean really, except for the badges, you can't tell the difference between a Buick, Chevy or Caddy... Ford or Lincoln (okay, maybe not so much), or Mercury...

 

... so you're sayin' my Italian copy of the Winchester 1873 is a Winchester also?

So I reckon my Begian made Browning semi-auto rifle is not really a Browning. I'll just start callling it an FN.

Brownings have always been made in various places, but... wouldn't you love to have one of the original 600 1885s that were actually built by the Browning Bros. before Winchester bought the patent? The original Auto 5 shotguns made by FN were named the Browning Auto 5, even tho' they were made in Belgium.

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Yeah, and they use parts that aren't made by GM. It's more of an assembly plant, most of the parts aren't GM. They are made all over China by non GM manufacturers and non GM employees.

I have a Buick Encore made in Korea, it has a Chevy Cruze engine and transmission.

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JMB's agreements with Winchester were for the outright purchase of his patents. Winchester had made it clear that they weren't interested in any designs for pistols. He'd already peddled pistol patents to FN. His agreements with FN included a royalty on each gun produced... When he took Winchester the patent on the 1899 patent for an autoloading shotgun he asked for that. Bennett refused. Browning then took the patent to Remington, but, (IIRC) the then President of Remington died and no one wanted to enter into an new agreement... He then contacted FN, & they snapped up the Auto 5.

 

Howdy

 

The story of John M Browning's relationship with Winchester is fascinating.

 

For almost 20 years, Browning would make a yearly trek from Ogden Utah to New Haven Connecticut by train, bringing his prototypes with him. Browning was an inventor and liked nothing better than to be in the shop working on something new. He did not want to be bothered with the details of patent lawyers or of manufacturing. His dealings with Winchester were solely through Winchester Vice President T.G. Bennett. Browning did enjoy making a bit of a production out of his demonstration of his prototypes to Bennett. After his demonstration, they would agree on a price and Browning would take his prototypes back to Utah. The agreements were simple. Winchester bought the rights to the patents outright. I do not believe Winchester paid him any royalties.

 

Winchester was so impressed with Browning as an inventor that they bought everything he designed, whether they produced it or not, for almost 20 years, just to keep it out of the hands of their competitors. I'm working from memory here, Winchester bought something like 44 patents from Browning, but only actually manufactured about 10 of them.

 

When Browning brought his prototype of his Automatic shotgun to New Haven, things got a little bit dicey. Bennett asked for him to leave the patent model there, so their manufacturing engineers could go over it. Browning agreed, and negotiations over the shotgun stretched out for a couple of years. Finally Browning lost his patience and jumped on a train to New Haven and had a meeting with Bennett that lasted about five minutes. Browning demanded a high price (which was probably ridiculously low) in addition to royalties and Bennett refused. Browning walked into the drafting room, picked up his prototype and walked out the door. That was the end of the Browning/Winchester relationship.

 

Browning then took his shotgun to Remington in Ilion New York. While Browning was in the waiting room to see the president of the company, the president had a heart attack and dropped dead.

 

At that point Browning decided to take his shotgun to Fabrique Nationale in Belgium, because they had already produced some of his automatic pistol designs. Browning went to Europe for the first time to supervise production of his shotgun in Belgium.

 

 

*****************

 

 

Regarding whether a Winchester produced in Japan is really a Winchester, I have to say yes. Companies have bought and sold the rights to produce products for many, many years. Although we may not like the fact that a Winchester has not been produced in Connecticut for a long time, all the papers are legal, and the corporation that owns the Winchester trademark today has every right to stamp the Winchester name on the guns and the boxes, no matter where they are made.

 

Now let's not get into the Henry story.

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Howdy

 

The story of John M Browning's relationship with Winchester is fascinating.

 

For almost 20 years, Browning would make a yearly trek from Ogden Utah to New Haven Connecticut by train, bringing his prototypes with him. Browning was an inventor and liked nothing better than to be in the shop working on something new. He did not want to be bothered with the details of patent lawyers or of manufacturing. His dealings with Winchester were solely through Winchester Vice President T.G. Bennett. Browning did enjoy making a bit of a production out of his demonstration of his prototypes to Bennett. After his demonstration, they would agree on a price and Browning would take his prototypes with him back to Utah. The agreements were simple. Winchester bought the rights to the patents outright. I do not believe Winchester paid him any royalties.

 

Winchester was so impressed with Browning as an inventor that they bought everything he designed, whether they produced it or not, just to keep it out of the hands of their competitors. In the almost 20 years of their relationship, I'm working from memory here, Winchester bought something like 44 patents from Browning, but only actually manufactured about 10 of them.

 

When Browning brought his prototype of this Automatic shotgun to New Haven, things got a little bit dicey. Bennett asked for him to leave the patent model there, so their manufacturing engineers could go over it. Browning agreed, and negotiations over the shotgun stretched out for a couple of years. Finally Browning lost his patience and jumped on a train to New Haven and had a meeting that lasted about five minutes with Bennett. Browning demanded a high price (which was probably ridiculously low) in addition to royalties and Bennett refused. Browning walked into the drafting room, picked up his prototype and walked out the door. That was the end of the Browning/Winchester relationship.

 

Browning then took his shotgun to Remington in Ilion New York. While Browning was in the waiting room to see the president of the company, the president had a heart attack and dropped dead.

 

At that point Browning decided to take his shotgun to Fabrique Nationale in Belgium, because they had already produced some of his automatic pistol designs. Browning went to Europe for the first time to supervise production of his shotgun in Belgium.

 

 

*****************

 

 

Regarding whether a Winchester produced in Japan is really a Winchester, I have to say yes. Companies have bought and sold the rights to produce products for many, many years. Although we may not like the fact that a Winchester has not been produced in Connecticut for a long time, all the papers are legal, and the corporation that owns the Winchester trademark today has every right to stamp the Winchester name on the guns and the boxes, no matter where they are made.

 

Now let's not get into the Henry story.

When one of the most respected and knowledgeable sass members speaks, I listen. That explanation seems good enough for me and should be the end of it, but I'm sure it'll go on for another 6 pages before folks get bored and jump onto another topic. Thanks for posting the Browning story. I'm fascinated by stuff like this and your knowledge.
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Well then I guess I can agree to disagree with you. I am going to be happy with my M73, and I guess M66, and then 1886 and possibly 1895, all manufactured by Moriku unless I can get an earlier manufactured one. I know I will go to http://www.winchesterguns.com to check out customer assistance and even to get documentation (owners manuals) on weapons no longer produced if I need them. I will be happy in my knowledge, or per some of you, ignorance that I am ordering Winchester firearms. I believe that this firm has the right to call their weapons that otherwise someone would have sued them to cease. I invite the rest of you happy owners of Moriku manufactured Browning and Winchester firearms to join me in enjoying our weapons and leave the rest of these party poopers to their opinion, as that is all that it appears to me to be and they are entitled to it. But it is not going to rain on my parade!

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Is the Colt Junior a Colt? In fact, are modern Colts, Colts? The company has been sold and reorganized several times. Are the some of the Browning semi-auto pistols that were made by Sig a few years ago Brownings?

 

colt-junior-1-3071_zpsfwdtlcjm.jpg

 

Are Wlnchester primers Winchester? Are Winchester powders Winchester? Is Wilnchester brass Winchester? None of them are "made" by "Winchester."

 

We live in a modern age with outsourcing, mergers, buyouts, licensing, etc. If the current licensee is selling Winchesters, they are Winchesters. Sheesh. Next shooter let's move on.

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When one of the most respected and knowledgeable sass members speaks, I listen. That explanation seems good enough for me and should be the end of it, but I'm sure it'll go on for another 6 pages before folks get bored and jump onto another topic. Thanks for posting the Browning story. I'm fascinated by stuff like this and your knowledge.

Hmmm... states the same basic facts as I did, but concludes with an opinion you like. Ergo his facts are "good", and mine are "bad"? :P:D FWIW, I seldom disagree with Driftwood's facts, and rarely his conclusions. And, truly, no matter my rhetoric to the contrary, I'm ambivalent on this issue; I have 2 Miroku guns, an 1885 & an 1886. Both carry the "Browning" name. The 1885 is a no brainer no? Designed AND initially produced by the Browning Bros. IMO, its a "Browning". My 1886 although, a truer copy of the original production Winchester & made in the same plant as the current production 1886, it carries the Browning name. Can one consider it a Winchester?

 

FN had purchased the worldwide rights to produce JMB's self-loading shotgun, producing them initially in Belgium as the "Browning Auto-5". When it became apparent that the European produced gun couldn't compete economically in the US, JMB got FN to release the American rights to Remington, who produced the gun as the mdo M-11 from 1906-1947, Should they be called "Auto 5"s also?

 

In truth, it shouldn't matter, as long as the parties discussing the item are aware of what's being discussed. The ONLY time it becomes important, is when discussing value, replacement parts and how to repair.

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Hey guys, I am not from PETA , but if you think the subject a dead horse, don't read it or look into it. As it obviously wasn't for us that contributed. It was a clash of opinions, we are all entitled to them, and I believe we all went away from the discussion a little more knowledgeable than we started. Besides it looks more like a brown Spuds McKenzie breed dog wearing a saddle than a horse?

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Hmmm... states the same basic facts as I did, but concludes with an opinion you like. Ergo his facts are "good", and mine are "bad"? :P:D FWIW, I seldom disagree with Driftwood's facts, and rarely his conclusions. And, truly, no matter my rhetoric to the contrary, I'm ambivalent on this issue; I have 2 Miroku guns, an 1885 & an 1886. Both carry the "Browning" name. The 1885 is a no brainer no? Designed AND initially produced by the Browning Bros. IMO, its a "Browning". My 1886 although, a truer copy of the original production Winchester & made in the same plant as the current production 1886, it carries the Browning name. Can one consider it a Winchester?

 

FN had purchased the worldwide rights to produce JMB's self-loading shotgun, producing them initially in Belgium as the "Browning Auto-5". When it became apparent that the European produced gun couldn't compete economically in the US, JMB got FN to release the American rights to Remington, who produced the gun as the mdo M-11 from 1906-1947, Should they be called "Auto 5"s also?

 

In truth, it shouldn't matter, as long as the parties discussing the item are aware of what's being discussed. The ONLY time it becomes important, is when discussing value, replacement parts and how to repair.

Not at all. It's not that his opinion is more to my liking than yours. It's just that his is right and yours is wrong. That's all haha. For what it's worth, I don't always agree with Driftwood Johnson. Just 99.99% of the time.

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