WTC

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

Howdy

What say 'ye !

Shooter goes round the world chasing that 5th pistol shot to go off..doesn't happen.

Proceeds to reload one..TO says stop, shooter keeps going & finishes stage.

There's a heated discussion..shooter says every right to reload, TO says you didn't follow my instructions.

Not my situation but a friends, to me yes you can reload 'BUT the TO is in control.

TO says you can't be sure that the one that didn't go bang could still be live & end up under the hammer at the ULT.

[Grizzly Dave]

Yes, yes you can, if the round you reload fires you wouldn't cock it again so it will be down on a spent round.

 

That said, when the TO says stop, you need to stop. Explain your case and ask for a reshoot for TO interference. Sounds like that wouldn't have happened, but...

[Three Foot Johnson]

I'm thinking an unfired round is a miss, regardless, and a shooter cannot load a 6th round to make up a miss. The rationale being, how does the shooter know the round wasn't a squib and a bullet is now lodged in the barrel.

[Captain Bill Burt]

RO1 page 25

 

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION

Willful failure to comply with a "cease fire" or "Stop" command given by, and

while under the positive control of, the CRO/TO

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

RO1 page 25

 

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION

Willful failure to comply with a "cease fire" or "Stop" command given by, and

while under the positive control of, the CRO/TO

 

RO1 page 25

 

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION

Willful failure to comply with a "cease fire" or "Stop" command given by, and

while under the positive control of, the CRO/TO

Yep that's my thinkin' Capt..Just want to be sure !

[Blackwater 53393]

TO gave a STOP command. That overrules everything else. After the stop is performed, you can then hash out the problem, but the STOP means just that.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I'm thinking an unfired round is a miss, regardless, and a shooter cannot load a 6th round to make up a miss. The rationale being, how does the shooter know the round wasn't a squib and a bullet is now lodged in the barrel.

Shooter's option to reload/replace "dud" round to negate the 5-second penalty.

 

RO1 page 25

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION

Willful failure to comply with a "cease fire" or "Stop" command given by, and

while under the positive control of, the CRO/TO

TO gave a STOP command. That overrules everything else. After the stop is performed, you can then hash out the problem, but the STOP means just that.

+++

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

Thanks PWB...

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Nice to see ya back PaleWolf..

 

Rance.

Thinkin' I was Thinkin' post #6 also..

[Widder, SASS #59054]

WELCOME BACK PWB !

 

STOP means exactly this......... S T O P !

 

I'm glad my good friend Capt Bill Burt posted his info because... I forgot about that penalty if/when we neglect to adhere to those TO commands.

 

 

..........Widder

[Captain Bill Burt]

Thanks Widder!!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

so, if the RO says stop in this instance,, that wud be a reshoot,,, wud it not be better to forcefully say, put it down,,,repeatedly...

 

I had a shooter with a squib in rifle nearly refuse to put it down,,,he got so mad he grabbed his guns and went to unloading table,, which should have been mdq in my book as he was cussing and conforting the whole time,, and yes it was a squib,, we gave him a dnf,, for the stage,,150 sec...

[Goody, SASS #26190]

The shooter should not question the call until the situation is safe. The "Stop" or "Cease Fire" command may not have anything to do with the shooters situation. Perhaps a person or animal has wandered down range, you never know. They key is to follow the direct command, then sort out why. As Cheyenne says, if the command is in error you will be offered a re-shoot.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Howdy

What say 'ye !

Shooter goes round the world chasing that 5th pistol shot to go off..doesn't happen.

Proceeds to reload one..TO says stop, shooter keeps going & finishes stage.

There's a heated discussion..shooter says every right to reload, TO says you didn't follow my instructions.

Not my situation but a friends, to me yes you can reload 'BUT the TO is in control.

TO says you can't be sure that the one that didn't go bang could still be live & end up under the hammer at the ULT.

Smart shooter loads one in the empty hole and fires it and leaves the hammer down on that last fired round. Perfectly safe back in holster. Happens a lot for shooters that want a clean match. Shooter never should have been stopped by TO.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

Smart shooter loads one in the empty hole and fires it and leaves the hammer down on that last fired round. Perfectly safe back in holster. Happens a lot for shooters that want a clean match. Shooter never should have been stopped by TO.

Yep here 'ya & agree.. however with the TO saying 'STOP changed the situation, a re-shoot would have always happened.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Yep here 'ya & agree.. however with the TO saying 'STOP changed the situation, a re-shoot would have always happened.

I agree. Based on the OP there wasn't a good reason to stop the shooter, however once the TO says stop the shooter has to stop, regardless of whether he thinks there's a good reason or not.

 

It sounds like in this case if the shooter had stopped he would have been better off than if the TO had said nothing. He would have (should have) gotten a reshoot and hopefully wouldn't have ended up working around trying to get ignition on that fifth shot.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

so, if the RO says stop in this instance,, that wud be a reshoot,,, wud it not be better to forcefully say, put it down,,,repeatedly...

 

I had a shooter with a squib in rifle nearly refuse to put it down,,,he got so mad he grabbed his guns and went to unloading table,, which should have been mdq in my book as he was cussing and conforting the whole time,, and yes it was a squib,, we gave him a dnf,, for the stage,,150 sec...

That would be a MATCH DQ.

PERIOD

 

"..any competitor or Range Official who uses foul language or becomes belligerent or threatening in any manner will be disqualified from the event, and, at the Match Directors discretion, may be required to leave the range."

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

That would be a MATCH DQ.

PERIOD

 

"..any competitor or Range Official who uses foul language or becomes belligerent or threatening in any manner will be disqualified from the event, and, at the Match Directors discretion, may be required to leave the range."

If that part were enforced, I don't think anyone would ever finish a match. Except perhaps those that shot clean. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, or said, "oh S@%&" after a miss.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

If that part were enforced, I don't think anyone would ever finish a match. Except perhaps those that shot clean. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, or said, "oh S@%&" after a miss.

I was mainly referring to the "belligerent attitude" section:

 

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION

...

Belligerent attitude / Unsportsman-like conduct.

 

RO1 p.26

[Hoss]

I'm thinking an unfired round is a miss, regardless, and a shooter cannot load a 6th round to make up a miss. The rationale being, how does the shooter know the round wasn't a squib and a bullet is now lodged in the barrel.

Shooter can replace a "dud" round. If it's a squib, could put it in other pistol. Problem is, after going around a couple of times, shooter does not know where dud round is, so would need to declare malfunction and ground that pistol. If shooter is sure there is no squib, he can reload the round in the 6th hole and shoot it, then reholster. While he may not know where the live round us, he knows where it ain't, which us under the hammer of the round he just reloaded and shot.

 

In the OP, the TO telling shooter to stop is the controlling thing. Shooter should have stopped, then been awarded a re-shoot (any safety penalties would carry forward)

[Dubious Don #56333]

Actually.....it would have been nicer if the TO had KNOWN the rules and not stopped the shooter from loading another round in the first place.....

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

Our Posse's policy is no reload for a misfire.

The firearm is handed off to a spotter or another observer and carried, muzzle up to the safety area to resolve the issue.

Reshoots are not unknown, but most just take a miss and move on.

Rationale: Early on, we had a bullet lodged between the cylinder and the barrel, preventing the cylinder from turning. If the primer or powder had a bit more oomph, the bullet would have lodged in the barrel. No-one, (three spotters and a TO as well as a scorekeeper) had heard a "pop" to tell us it was a squib.

[40Chev]

Shooter can replace a "dud" round. If it's a squib, could put it in other pistol. Problem is, after going around a couple of times, shooter does not know where dud round is, so would need to declare malfunction and ground that pistol. If shooter is sure there is no squib, he can reload the round in the 6th hole and shoot it, then reholster. While he may not know where the live round us, he knows where it ain't, which us under the hammer of the round he just reloaded and shot.

 

In the OP, the TO telling shooter to stop is the controlling thing. Shooter should have stopped, then been awarded a re-shoot (any safety penalties would carry forward)

Shooter can replace a "dud" round. If it's a squib, could put it in other pistol.

 

I think I disagree with that one. If it's a squib it went off, it's a miss along with all the other rounds in that pistol if it wasn't the last one. He can't reload the other pistol and make it up. It would be the same as a blooper that did exit the barrel but didn't get to the target, he can't reload and make that one up.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Our Posse's policy is no reload for a misfire.

The firearm is handed off to a spotter or another observer and carried, muzzle up to the safety area to resolve the issue.

Reshoots are not unknown, but most just take a miss and move on.

Rationale: Early on, we had a bullet lodged between the cylinder and the barrel, preventing the cylinder from turning. If the primer or powder had a bit more oomph, the bullet would have lodged in the barrel. No-one, (three spotters and a TO as well as a scorekeeper) had heard a "pop" to tell us it was a squib.

This rule makes no sense. Why can't a shooter just ground that gun and pull the other and load it with one in empty hole assuming it was a pistol misfire. Even the example makes no sense. If there was a bullet keeping the cylinder from turning, how could shooter reload another and keep shooting?

[Marauder SASS #13056]

It is a good question, but already answered.

 

See post #7.

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=257702#entry3348866

 

The round did not go downrange. You may reload for a dud if you so choose.

[Jess Money]

How many of us would not have stopped when the TO said "STOP" ? I will definitely stop!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Our Posse's policy is no reload for a misfire.

The firearm is handed off to a spotter or another observer and carried, muzzle up to the safety area to resolve the issue.

Reshoots are not unknown, but most just take a miss and move on.

Rationale: Early on, we had a bullet lodged between the cylinder and the barrel, preventing the cylinder from turning. If the primer or powder had a bit more oomph, the bullet would have lodged in the barrel. No-one, (three spotters and a TO as well as a scorekeeper) had heard a "pop" to tell us it was a squib.

 

So-You don't follow SASS rules then. Why?

 

Shooter can replace a "dud" round. If it's a squib, could put it in other pistol.

 

I think I disagree with that one. If it's a squib it went off, it's a miss along with all the other rounds in that pistol if it wasn't the last one. He can't reload the other pistol and make it up. It would be the same as a blooper that did exit the barrel but didn't get to the target, he can't reload and make that one up.

 

It didn't leave the gun, that's why it's called a 'squib'.

 

OLG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Sometimes the TO can't tell the difference on that shot - did a dud or a squib just happen? He's got about 0.5 seconds to yell "squib - ground gun" before the shooter fires again. Give the TO a benefit of the doubt on this situation. The worst that happens - when the revolver is inspected, you find the TO made a mistaken call of Squib, the barrel was actually clear, and the shooter gets a reshoot.

 

Otherwise, the TO is going to just shut up and not say a thing, leaving all squib determinations to the shooter himself. A less-than-experienced shooter, combined with a less-than-experienced TO, will lead to rounds fired behind real squibs in the barrel. Don't be too hasty to try to convince us all that we have to have PERFECT TOs that can tell every time within half a second the difference between a squib, a dud, a cap-only-ignition, etc. 90% of the TOs cannnot get to that level of perfection! In the interest of safety, don't moan about the occasional "Squib - ground gun" call, even if some turn out to be the incorrect call.

 

But directly to this case, the TO needs to learn not to call "STOP" - he must call "SQUIB - Ground Gun" instead. TO interferred in this case - reshoot.

 

Good luck , GJ

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

This rule makes no sense. Why can't a shooter just ground that gun and pull the other and load it with one in empty hole assuming it was a pistol misfire. Even the example makes no sense. If there was a bullet keeping the cylinder from turning, how could shooter reload another and keep shooting?

Yep, and grounding is the prefered method if there is a sturdy prop, instead of handing off.

[40Chev]

How many of us would not have stopped when the TO said "STOP" ? I will definitely stop!

I've done it. Heat of the moment, adrenaline pumping, last stage of the match, pistols were last, had a fail to fire in the first pistol, turned to the TO, told him I was going to reload as I was clean. In all fairness, don't think he told me to stop what he said was "You can't do that". I figured I could according to the rules and did so.

After much posse discussion I was given a safety for the stage. Went to the match director for his opinion, he agreed with me. After I cooled off I let it go rather than make an issue of it and went back to the match director and said "Let it go".

 

Hind sight - yeah I was wrong, should have stopped - gone to the match director and requested his opinion and taken his decision.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Shooter can replace a "dud" round. If it's a squib, could put it in other pistol.

 

I think I disagree with that one. If it's a squib it went off, it's a miss along with all the other rounds in that pistol if it wasn't the last one. He can't reload the other pistol and make it up.

 

YES...he can & may do so.

 

It would be the same as a blooper that did exit the barrel but didn't get to the target, he can't reload and make that one up.

 

That is NOT the same thing as a bullet that failed to clear the muzzle.

 

[40Chev]

 

So-You don't follow SASS rules then. Why?

 

 

It didn't leave the gun, that's why it's called a 'squib'.

 

OLG

So are you saying that in case of a pistol squib - you are allowed to reload the second pistol and continue?

Sorry - now I see PWB s answer.

So, pistol squib on the first pistol round. Shooter could shoot the second pistol for five shots, reload it with five and fire those five?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

So are you saying that in case of a pistol squib - you are allowed to reload the second pistol and continue?

Sorry - now I see PWB s answer.

So, pistol squib on the first pistol round. Shooter could shoot the second pistol for five shots, reload it with five and fire those five?

YES, that is allowed.

[Hoss]

So are you saying that in case of a pistol squib - you are allowed to reload the second pistol and continue?

Sorry - now I see PWB s answer.

So, pistol squib on the first pistol round. Shooter could shoot the second pistol for five shots, reload it with five and fire those five?

yes. assuming he has an extra round. Could unload the 4 "good" rounds from 1st gun and put in second gun I think. They were carried to the line in an approved manner. This would take a lot of time, but if the shooter wanted to keep a clean match he could do it.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

See also this example from 2005

 

 

https://www.badmanbullets.com/oowss.com/Question%20of%20the%20month%20archive%20dec05.htm