Captain Clark Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I already know of some of the downside on open tops, but can't seem to stop thinking they are kinda cool! I'm wanting to hear from open top shooters on what it takes to get them up to a reasonable level of competition. Yea, I know that practice is way up the list, my interest is more along what the pistols need themselves, caliber, bbl length, springs? I figure 38's are down the list cause they aren't good for Classic Cowboy. Heck, even advice on grip frame style will be appreciated! Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafe Conager SASS #56958 Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I have been using my opentops for about 5 years, my Richard masons are in .45 schofield I shoot full house black, of factory smokeless(not often) I also use 60 c&b for my main match guns, shoot them at Bordertown and Winter Range plus 2-3 other big events. I have pretty big hands so the Army grip works well but I also shoot my 51 navies all have original barrel length 8" for 60s and 7 1/2 for navies. Rafe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Like many of you, I have seens aweso e shooters with guns that most of us could not shoot worth a lick (like a Schofield), and I have seen some shooters that not helped at all with the slickest, highly tuned SAAs that money could buy. You either will or will not be competitive with a gun type. You either shoot for 100% competitive reasons, 100% fun reasons or somewhere in between. These are questions that only you can answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 You asked about grip frame styles. Are your hands big or small? Try to get your hands on some Navy and Army grips, see what you prefer. Once you know that... Regarding '71-'72 Opentops, the shorter barrels (4 3/4" and 5 1/2") are only available with Navy grips. Army grip is available only on 7 1/2" barrels. Obviously if you want to spend money you can buy parts and change out the gripframes and grips from one size to another, and barrel lengths as well. Available in .38 (which you don't want), .44 Spcl which will chamber the Spcl, Colt, and Russian. Or in .45 Colt, which can also chamber .45 S&W and .45 CS (if you have or can find that brass). Now, the 1860 Richards-Mason and Type II Richards all have Army grips. Those are available in 5 1/2" and 8", and the same calibers as the Opentops. The '51 R-M also comes in 4 3/4" barrel and has Navy grips, but that one is .38 only. Most folks would agree that 4 3/4" or 5 1/2" barrels will be more competitive that the longer barrels. I like shorter for gunfighter and longer for just stylin'. Sure, they need springs. These guns do not come with a coil hand spring like the SAA types. If you want the coil spring for reliability, the guns can be modified for that. Action jobs on these are best left to someone who has experience with setting them up. Pettifogger has a good set of instructions on setting them up and fixing some of the fitting that has been lacking from the Italians in recent years, like barrel to arbor fit. These guns have a shorter hammer stroke than a SAA. I seem to recall T-bone shot a pair for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Why not just go all the way and get percussion open tops? Percussion revolvers .36 caliber and larger are legal in EVERY SASS category. The factory new ones need some jackleg gunsmithing, but that's part of the fun, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Captain Clark, I've been shooting Open Tops as my primary comp guns for about 10 - 12 years. The Open Top as it comes out of the box is a KIT. A really good looking, well finished KIT. Out of the box they lack. And they lack a lot. The starting point with the Open Top is to check (it will be bad) the Barrel to Arbor fit. The Arbor will need to be dressed so the barrel will slide on and off without a fight. Then the hole in the barrel lug needs to be shimmed to correct the fit to the frame, or the end of the Arbor need attention so the barrel fits to the frame. Until the Barrel to Arbor fit is corrected you'll chase your tail trying to set them up. Then the bolt need to be fit to the cylinder notches and the bolt polished on the frame side. Next, adjust the timing. Tune or replace the Trigger/Bolt spring. I like the Pietta T/B spring. Next, polish the burrs and rough spots out of the frame and hammer channel. Fit the hand and re-profile the hand spring or modify for coil spring and plunger (preferred). Replace the Main Spring with after-market. Either from VTI or Lee's Gunsmithing. Fit the main spring so it doesn't scrape the underside of the hammer. Pick the size/type grips you like. I don't shoot Navy pattern grips well, so my Open Tops ALL have Army Pattern Grips. At this point, hopefully you have good barrel to cylinder gap, not too much end shake and good head space. Once all of this had been done, they balance and point better than a '51 Navy. However, they will NOT hold up well to a traditional style shooter running them hard, in any caliber but 38 and 44. The bolt notches in a 45 cylinder are too shallow and will peen out quickly. I don't personally think they should be chambered in 45 anyway, Chamber wall is too thin. My suggestion would be .38. Coffinmaker PS: Pettifogger did an excellent tutorial for prepping the Open Top and it is saved on "The Open Range" as a "Read Only" Be sure to review and print it off. You'll need it. PSS: J-Bar, I wouldn't be so crude to describe what is needed as "jackleg gunsmithing." Some skill is required to get it right. PSSS: While my preference leans to the .38, 44 Special/Colt/Russian set up rather well and would be quite acceptable for Classic Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 "PSS: J-Bar, I wouldn't be so crude to describe what is needed as "jackleg gunsmithing." Some skill is required to get it right." I've tuned 5 pairs of tops, making them reliable enough for competition. I am not a gunsmith, and I don't have fancy tools. "Jackleg" was intended to mean that even amateurs can do the job. Pettifogger is a godsend. His guidelines have been a terrific contribution to our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Once all of this had been done, they balance and point better than a '51 Navy. However, they will NOT hold up well to a traditional style shooter running them hard, in any caliber but 38 and 44. The bolt notches in a 45 cylinder are too shallow and will peen out quickly. I don't personally think they should be chambered in 45 anyway, Chamber wall is too thin. My suggestion would be .38. I love mine and pretty much agree with this. If you shoot duelist or gunfighter, great. I wouldn't recommend them for two-handed shooting tho. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I like my open-tops and shot them all last season in FCD, yes they do seem to need a little fitting and polishing from the factory,,, but what stock gun (excepting factory tuned) doesn't... I have two with Navy grips and one RM conversion in .38 with army grips ... I agree that they are best Not chambered in .45 Colt as with full load Blackpowder rounds they will shoot loose quickly ... But I really like the .44 colt/.44 spl. chambering and Navy Grips with 7 1/2 inch barrels this is the sweetest pointing gun out there IMHO... I keep a fitted Hand/spring and Bolt/trigger spring in my Kit... Last year I broke one of each spring . The Hand/spring is different between the Open-top and the RM conversion ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 CC.... that's some good info, thanks! I hadn't given the thinner cylinder walls any thought when chambered in 45! Guess 44 Spec may move up the list. I'm liking the navy grip as I tend to be familiar with it more than the Army. Where does the SAA grip shape fall closest too? J-Bar... I did the percussion thing all through high school, pistols, rifle etc. Guess I'm getting soft nowdays, loved my navies but thinking I'm going to stick with cartridges for now. Am considering using them in FC so at least I get to make some smoke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouchy Spike Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I've been shooting Uberti Open Tops for since 2007, 8" barrels, Navy grips, in 38 and 44 Spl, in Duelist category. They are natural pointers, well balanced, and with Trail Boss powder the 44 Spl are my favorites. Although marked 44 Colt, the 44s were chambered in 44 Spl. All had issues out of the box, so Alan Harton in Houston worked magic on them, including the replacement of front sights and a trip to the range to check the Point of Impact. Others have also had Alan work on their OTs, with similar rave reviews. Read a review here: http://www.gunblast.com/AlanHarton.htm You may also enjoy this website. STORM is all about Open Tops and Conversions: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?board=56.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 With respect to Open Top caliber choices, I know there are some who are adamant about staying away from the 45 Colt in these for lots of reasons; historical and design mechanics. But between the choice of .38 or .44 caliber, is it accurate to presume that given the "more fragile" nature of the Open Top design when compared to a SAA type, would the .38s last longer mechanically over the .44s simply due to less recoil battering of the gun? I know fast two handed shooting can prematurely stress and damage the gun, but is ammo also to be of concern with longevity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I relly like my 1860 44 cal 5 1/2 in bbls Pieettas (Colt copys) just a touch of smoothing and they are good enough , other shooters have called DIBS , on em if I should ever part with em easy to slick up with a bit of wor% , just recall polishing , AIN'T grinding , NO SPARKS ALLOWED Chickasaw Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Dodge Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I've been trying to get examples of every Colts reproductions from 1836 to the SAA and I have 1851 RMs, 1860 RMs, and 1871/2 OTs. I've only shot the OTs in a match though and not the whole match because I was having rifle trouble and switched from 44 colt back to 44-40 for the rest of the match. (did not want to mix my calibers in a nervous moment) I shoot double duelist. The thing I noticed immediately about the open top is the hammers. It's definitely a shorter stroke, but you have to reach further up then on an SAA. If you are used to shooting SAAs this is quite and adjustment to make. If you are used to the percussions guns though, this should not slow you down any. They sure are purty in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outrider, SASS #72622 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Stumpman can sure make them run! I shoot with him somewhere about every weekend and he always uses open tops. I don't have his website but I know he sells them ready to run. Sorry, just found the web site. Give him a call. He is a good guy. https://www.kandtguns.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 They are very good for duelist or gunfighter. However, if you are a two-handed shooter and slam the hammers back like a gorilla you'll be better served by a solid frame gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Yup...1860 Piettas that I converted to 45 but I shoot 45 Cowboy Specials with 160g bullets. Much less recoil and easy on the frames. I have thousands of rounds through these revolvers. They are my main match guns. No issues what so ever. I have medium size hands and those grips don't let mt pinky dangle like a set of 1873 Colts do. Love em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stumpman Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Love OT's!!! They are all I shoot gunfighter. I do all of the Pittifogger mods and put a bit of my own juice in them. I have many very happy customers. kandtguns.com check me out and give me a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 45's wear out OT's? Really? I shot my pair of 7.5" 45 colt OT's for 5 years before I gave them to my wife. I converted a set of 7.5" 44 specials to 44-40 and now shoot those. I put some hardened firing pins from the Smith Shop in the 45's as someone had damaged the originals, but the 44's are totally stock except for some wire bolt springs that I make myself. I only shoot FCD, maybe I am easy on guns? I love the pointability of them, haven't found the hammer reach to be a handicap. FWIW, I was 1st in Classic Cowboy at the California Blackpowder Shoot-out with my 44-40's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Springfield Slim, Good to know. That is heartening. Although it seems most consensus is these guns need to be worked out of the box (and maybe most Open Tops DO need work out of the box) it is certainly encouraging for a perspective Open Top shooter that it is perhaps possible to either get a good functioning pair or that they will still function well with no or minimal work. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 45's wear out OT's? Really? I shot my pair of 7.5" 45 colt OT's for 5 years before I gave them to my wife. I converted a set of 7.5" 44 specials to 44-40 and now shoot those. I put some hardened firing pins from the Smith Shop in the 45's as someone had damaged the originals, but the 44's are totally stock except for some wire bolt springs that I make myself. I only shoot FCD, maybe I am easy on guns? I love the pointability of them, haven't found the hammer reach to be a handicap. FWIW, I was 1st in Classic Cowboy at the California Blackpowder Shoot-out with my 44-40's. That's good to hear. Appreciate the info.... thinking 44 spec is what I may need to look for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rodgers Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Navy grips and 44russian. Just perfect for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I have 4 open tops that I shoot all the time. They're in 38 so I can't comment on the bigger bore ones. 2 are 51 RM's 5 1/2 inch, 1 72 7 inch and 1 60 Army 5 1/2 inch. The 60 Army is the steel frame and has a larger grip than the other 3 with Navy brass grip frames. I shoot Duelist and have had the hammers lowered on all of them (it's a legal mod) and find that the OT's have a more natural point to target than the 73 Colt SAA style. The front sight and the rear sight placement on the 51's and 60 seem to just fall onto the target. The rear sight is a V notch in the hammer. There's no hunting for the small rear sight groove the 73's have. I still have a 75 Remington and a GW2 that I used to shoot before trying the OT's. Now they sit in my safe and get taken out once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostVaquero Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I was looking at these for dualist/double dualist and like others they just scream a lot of cowboy to me. Sorry, everytime I see one I can't help but think of an old Clint Eastwood film. Someone mentioned coil springs? Who does this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tame Bill #30699 Life Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Los Vaquero, All six of my ’51 R-M Conversion revolvers have coil hammer and hand springs in addition to full Munden Option #2 Race Gun tuning. Contact Munden Enterprises and speak to Jeff Ault about his open top work. www.bob-munden.com Tame Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigC Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Never shot in a match but I've been shooting the stew out of my Open Top .44Colt for about 8yrs. I had it engraved and refinished back in 2013 and last season, I killed more varmints with it than deer with rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Never shot in a match but I've been shooting the stew out of my Open Top .44Colt for about 8yrs. I had it engraved and refinished back in 2013 and last season, I killed more varmints with it than deer with rifles. NICE revolver and Rig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chance Ramsay Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I have 45s & 38s and like then both ( open tops ) a lot lighter than my rugers and the point of aim is great shot them for the last 5 or 6 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigC Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Thanks! The rig is one of my own making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 It looks like the 5 1/2" open top market is shallow at this time. Had a 7 1/2" offer, but am trying to hold out! Guess I gotta keep looking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I have a set of .44 Spec. 72 Open Tops that started life as 7 1/2" ers that where cut down to 4 3/4" ers I would like a set of .38s if I could find them. Don't seem to find them for sale very often, and I'm not sure I'd like the ones with the rear site notch in the hammer instead of on top of the barrel like my 72s have.. Any preference from you guys!!! Gonna get these done up right by someone as I love the feel and look of all of the Open Top styles, as far as I'm concerned they are the most beautiful handguns made!!! The 2 examples on this thread are proof of that!! Very pleasing to the eye of any gun lover for sure!!! Spades H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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