Should the policy of 'not' ending stage with rifle be removed?

[Blastmaster]

With todays high tech timers, it isn't all that difficult to pick up rifle reports and thus, the rifle could be used as the last firearm for a stage. That would open up a whole bunch of different firearm sequences and gun transitions.

 

Of course, stage writers and clubs could custom the stage scenerios to better fit the timer pickup vs noise from other berms. If there is a noisy berm beside yours, then don't write the stage to end on rifle.

[gunrunner joe #17093]

Need to put more powder in the loads [ to meat power factor]

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

That would only work if you could rely on TO' a to be on the ball all the time. A match with a dozen shooters, yeah easy to monitor, 200 plus shooters not so much. And yes I've written and shot plenty of stages ending with rifle and don't believe it's worth the chance of not catching the shots.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Need to put more powder in the loads [ to meat power factor]

We have children shooting .22s. This is not a solution in my local.

[Rye Miles #13621]

More powder and we could eliminate the "don't end with rifle" thing. C'mon nancys, up the charge a bit, it'll only hurt for a little while!

[Kid Rich]

With todays high tech timers, it isn't all that difficult to pick up rifle reports and thus, the rifle could be used as the last firearm for a stage. That would open up a whole bunch of different firearm sequences and gun transitions.

 

Of course, stage writers and clubs could custom the stage scenerios to better fit the timer pickup vs noise from other berms. If there is a noisy berm beside yours, then don't write the stage to end on rifle.

You are not going to know the berm (shooters) next to you is noisy until its happening. Need to up the powder charge. kR

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

That would only work if you could rely on TO' a to be on the ball all the time. A match with a dozen shooters, yeah easy to monitor, 200 plus shooters not so much. And yes I've written and shot plenty of stages ending with rifle and don't believe it's worth the chance of not catching the shots.

 

 

+1

 

AO

 

PS Have seen Wildbunch Stages end with rifle and Timer did not pick up shots where they are meeting PF for WB it's more about TO.

[Blastmaster]

That would only work if you could rely on TO' a to be on the ball all the time. A match with a dozen shooters, yeah easy to monitor, 200 plus shooters not so much. And yes I've written and shot plenty of stages ending with rifle and don't believe it's worth the chance of not catching the shots.

We are suppose to rely on TO's to safely guide shooter through the stage, know the rules, enforce the rules fairly, watch for double dribble, procedurals, shoot and move rapidly, movement with cocked guns, breaking the 170 and a whole host of others.

 

Yer right, it takes a very talented TO to do all that and it ain't all going to get done like it should. You do the best with what you have.

 

The folks writing the stages should know their range and which bays are more suitable to not picking up sound from side bays.

 

Kids shooting 22's? could be problematic.

 

Doesn't have to be all the time.

 

Just a suggestion and a new topic for discussion and it wouldn't bother me to much if the idea is shot down.

[Wrangler Rich SASS #42157]

We have children shooting .22s. This is not a solution in my local.

Not a problem picking up 22's. It's the mouse pharts that don't pickup.

[Partner]

Have had as many wimp pistol loads present the same problem. Isn't it common procedure to require a re-shoot if the timer "fails" ?

Wouldn't you have to do the same thing if the loads are not loud enough for the timer to pick up? Might be incentive to make more noise.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

The problem is the TO might not even know if timer picked up final shot / shots from rifle and so shooter gets a really good score, and it can go unnoticed sometimes. or shooter has to reshoot stage. not worth it in most cases.

 

AO

 

Would be nice to add another variation to stage ending / gun order but not worth the hassle.

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

I don't like the idea. Many fixed stage fronts don't allow for the TO to get as close as needed with the timer and as Deuce said just not worth the risk. Plus the cost of new "high tech" timers is a burden many clubs don't need or want. I also have noted that not all high power round's get picked up on the rifles either!

[Anvil Al #59168]

That would only work if you could rely on TO' a to be on the ball all the time. A match with a dozen shooters, yeah easy to monitor, 200 plus shooters not so much. And yes I've written and shot plenty of stages ending with rifle and don't believe it's worth the chance of not catching the shots.

 

 

 

 

+1

 

AO

 

PS Have seen Wildbunch Stages end with rifle and Timer did not pick up shots where they are meeting PF for WB it's more about TO.

 

 

Another +1

 

To many times you see TO's that don't get the timer in the correct position to pick up those last shots.

AND

Are not quickly looking down at the timer to make sure those shots are being picked up.

 

Sometimes from just not paying attention, to not knowing better, to sadly.

Holding the timers on the last few shots in a bad position that may or may not

pick up shots for the buddy's. (and yes. Have seen it happen)

Add the rifle last? Makes it easier for all of the above to not get the correct time.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Not a problem picking up 22's. It's the mouse pharts that don't pickup.

To quote a good wire friend, HORSEFEATHERS.

 

I've very frequently seen all of these cause rifle shots to not be recorded:

* .22 standard velocity and "quiet" ammo

* stage fronts that make it tough to get the timer a direct line toward the muzzle

* .38s, .44s, .45s all of them - really not a lot of difference when we allow a PF of 60

* noise from next bay

 

Remember that the rules only declare "the last gun should not be the rifle" as a strong stage-design suggestion - it already is allowed to shoot rifle as the last gun on a stage. Read the darn rules! Just better make sure you have EVERY SINGLE T.O. watching the last shot fired on the clock, to make sure the LAST shot was recorded. Then, run rifle last if you want!

 

So, the practice of not having rifle last is really pretty simple - doing that helps protect the integrity of all shooters' scores from the lazy, inattentive or poorly trained TOs, and inexperienced stage designers, amongst us all!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

 

 

 

 

To many times you see TO's that don't get the timer in the correct position to pick up those last shots.

AND

Are not quickly looking down at the timer to make sure those shots are being picked up.

 

...

So true. However, when the shooter picks up the last gun, I look at the timer to make sure it is advancing. One time, I kept moving it around to get it in position. I did not get a single rifle shot to record. The shooter had to be told he had to reshoot. I gave the timer to someone taller with longer arms. He was able to get the last shot.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

To quote a good wire friend, HORSEFEATHERS.

 

I've very frequently seen all of these cause rifle shots to not be recorded:

* .22 standard velocity and "quiet" ammo

* stage fronts that make it tough to get the timer a direct line toward the muzzle

* .38s, .44s, .45s all of them - really not a lot of difference when we allow a PF of 60

* noise from next bay

 

Remember that the rules only declare "the last gun should not be the rifle" as a strong stage-design suggestion - it already is allowed to shoot rifle as the last gun on a stage. Read the darn rules! Just better make sure you have EVERY SINGLE T.O. watching the last shot fired on the clock, to make sure the LAST shot was recorded. Then, run rifle last if you want!

 

So, the practice of not having rifle last is really pretty simple - doing that helps protect the integrity of all shooters' scores from the lazy, inattentive or poorly trained TOs, and inexperienced stage designers, amongst us all!

 

Good luck, GJ

Well said, but I take exception to the poorly trained TO comment. I have time shooter's with such quiet loads that it becomes near impossible to position the timer if a window is involved. I agree with your conclusion, it's just good policy to not shoot the rifle last.

 

CR

[Curly Red Ryder]

More powder and we could eliminate the "don't end with rifle" thing. C'mon nancys, up the charge a bit, it'll only hurt for a little while!

More powder in Buckaroos .22LR? They had to shoot "standard loads" not high velocity!

[Rye Miles #13621]

More powder in Buckaroos .22LR? They had to shoot "standard loads" not high velocity!

Good point, I stand corrected.

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

NO!

[Anvil Al #59168]

Well said, but I take exception to the poorly trained TO comment. I have time shooter's with such quiet loads that it becomes near impossible to position the timer if a window is involved. I agree with your conclusion, it's just good policy to not shoot the rifle last.

 

CR

 

 

I find that with window.

And when you get a shooter that REALLY likes to lean way out there. (like there gun won't shoot

the other 2 foot)

It can make it hard.

 

Even with a pistol and a small window.

 

Hope stage writers take that into account when writing stages.

 

Please don't even end with the pistol if you are going to have them shooting out of

a small window at the end.

Save that ending with pistol for stages that are better suited for it.

 

Just my opinion.

[Mustang Gregg]

 

My opinion is to leave it as it is now.

 

Mustang Gregg,

TG for ENGC & HPR

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

In 20+ years in this sport, I have never had an occasion where I didn't have the timer pick up the last shot from any gun. Oh wait, my mistake. When we used stop watches, they wouldn't pick up the last round.

 

Fillmore

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

I don't believe it's a policy, it's a recommendation.

We shoot rifle as the last gun all the time. TO position is important. We also found that if you shoot thru storefronts the light rifle loads are hard to pick up. TO needs to get the timer as close to the opening as possible without interfering with the shooter.

Ike

[Four Bucks #36386 Life]

Just a side note, before I have to read another "wimp load" comment...a Marlin rifle has a notoriously quiet report compared to some other rifles, even with real man loads. Besides, you CAN end a stage with a rifle...just not recommended.

 

Curious...do all the "more powder" guys drive a muscle car with a blown 454 because it's loud, fast and manly or do you drive a smaller sedan because it's efficient, comfortable and reliable? Kinda the same thing. Folks use different equipment because they can, not to please others. In my other life, I build and hunt with traditional archery equipment. I don't spend my time deriding others who use modern compound bows to accomplish the same task because I consider us brethren and on the same team.

 

Sorry if I hijacked the original theme of this thread. See y'all at Winter Range.

 

Four Bucks

[Anvil Al #59168]

In 20+ years in this sport, I have never had an occasion where I didn't have the timer pick up the last shot from any gun. Oh wait, my mistake. When we used stop watches, they wouldn't pick up the last round.

 

Fillmore

 

 

So are you saying you don't think it ever happens???

 

Because I have seen it.

 

And mostly because the TO was not paying attention and holding it in

a position to pick it up.

 

As when the shooter was done. There was NO WAY that time was correct.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Well said, but I take exception to the poorly trained TO comment. I have time shooter's with such quiet loads that it becomes near impossible to position the timer if a window is involved. I agree with your conclusion, it's just good policy to not shoot the rifle last.

 

CR

 

Well, I know that we have some poorly trained TOs - I bump into one almost every match. I sure did not say that most or all of our TOs are poorly trained - the majority are great. I also fight with prop windows to get a good last shot recorded.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Assassin]

Cigar in mouth, eyes on targets, counting with one hand, timer in the other. It's not a problem with the timer it's the TO. Hold the timer where it picks up the shot, watch the timer and shooter, let the spotters do their job. When a TO starts to lose focus it's time to hand off the timer. I agree with Blastmaster, it's time to rethink the no rifle last recommendation. If there's a table at the last position lay the timer down on the table before the shooter gets there, it'll pick up the shots.

 

As for only being concerned with picking up the last shot, what if the last gun malfunctions and the TO did not get the other shots on the timer. The TO needs to get ALL the shots on the timer not just the last!

[Duncan Disorderly]

I've seen way too many where the timer doesn't pick up all the rifle shots, or sometimes ANY rifle shots.

A good number of stages have the rifle poking thru a doorway, window or slot in the wall - no way to get the timer to hear the rifle shots.

[Dutch Coroner]

The problem is the TO might not even know if timer picked up final shot / shots from rifle and so shooter gets a really good score, and it can go unnoticed sometimes. or shooter has to reshoot stage. not worth it in most cases.

 

AO

 

Would be nice to add another variation to stage ending / gun order but not worth the hassle.

TO should be looking at the timer to make sure it picks up the last shot. I was reminded of that at EOT last year about 15 minutes before Lassiter showed up on our stage to fix something and while he was there, he asked me if I was looking at the timer to pick up the last shot. Apparently they had a few issues with that?

 

Couple of years ago at a monthly, we had a stage that ended with the rifle and one of the usual 25 sec+ shooters ended up with a 14 second stage. Pretty clear all the shots weren't picked up, but they let it stand. We joked about it with him, called him Deuce for a while, but it was a really good example of why this is problematic. FWIW, the MD was on our posse and he made the call to let it stand.

 

Dutch

[Bugler]

Never had a problem when shooting Black Powder....timer reads it loud and clear....

Bugler

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Shoshone Slim is not know for being the fastest gunfighter in the west, but he turned in an 11 second stage at Midwest Classic one year. Seems the timer started over after three minutes - they let it stand for bragging rights. Made zero difference in overall or category placement. Pretty sure the timer picked up all the shots.

 

CR

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

 

 

So are you saying you don't think it ever happens???

 

Because I have seen it.

 

And mostly because the TO was not paying attention and holding it in

a position to pick it up.

 

As when the shooter was done. There was NO WAY that time was correct.

I'm not saying that at all. I said I, as a TO, I have never had it happen. Why? Because I glance at the timer before the last round is fired to make sure it's moving. It's not hard to do and should be taught to every potential TO . (I'm not that much taller than Allie ).

 

Fillmore

[Sixgun Seamus]

We will occasionally have a rifle last in a stage. (mostly a shooters choice) Our timers will pick up the shots if the TO is doing his job. The only problem we ever had was a Buckaroo shooting a .22. It was a shooters choice so he just had to shoot something else last. When I TO, I was taught to watch the timer on the last couple shots to see that they record. I've not had a problem yet. Our timers also show number of shots for a verification.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Ask Judge Roy Bean (SASS #1) why we use a SHOTGUN in Cowboy Action Shooting.

 

[Blastmaster]

Folks,

 

Stage writers or knowledgeable club members should know which shooting bays at their range would be suitable for rifle last because there would/should be no problems in getting the timer close enough w/o interference. In other words, don't put rifle last if there is a tight window, or open bays to the left/right or????.. A perfect situation I can think of at one range is an enclose (sides,roof, back,,,,with open front) building that has lots of room inside for shooter to shoot/move along with TO. The gun reports are LOUD. BP shooters knock your fillings out. TO's play the friendly game of "Do you want to time now?, I am tired' and guess what? The next shooter is a Full House BP shooter that will jar your teeth out plus smoke you out. Now that would be a prime place. There are others. So don't get hung up with thinking all stages are ment to be.

 

Now, as far as TO's not paying attention to the last few shots to verify if the timer is advancing,, well that happens alot. Is it a good opportunity to fudge the score for a friend too? Yes. I frequently see the TO lagging well behind the shooter and relying on the SG blast to trip the timer from a few feet away and behind the shooter.

 

Finally, the report from a pistol that is held out at arms length is about if not equal to the same as the rifle, except the rifle muzzle may be 18inch further out than the muzzle of the extended pistol.

 

Oh well, I understand the reluctance and it has some merit but again it is workable if you want it to be.

 

As a side note, just for grins and giggles, next time you are TOing, see how well (or not) you can pick up rifle shots on the timer. If not, what was the circumstances of the situation.