Pocket modification

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Thanks Grizz and CC.

 

Wow, I ask simple question and all of a sudden I'm a gamer/cheater. I really don't appreciate those comments and I'm not going to say what I want lest I get banned from here. Next time I'll just send a PM to Mr. PWB.

 

For the record I have already shot matches pulling shot shells out of my unmodified vest pockets. Both of the vests I own have pockets that will hold 4 shot shells. The pockets are shallow enough that the shells do stick out a bit. The problem is when you grab 2 the remaining 2 tend to fall over. I am not trying to bend the rules, I just want to know if I can put something in there to keep the shells upright. If I can't then fine, I'll still use the vest pocket which IS legal; I'll just grab 4 at a time. If anything I am hurting myself.

I read all the comments in reverse to see the negative comments. With all due respect Tyrel, they were pretty easy on you. Wait til Anvil Al is in a bad mood.

 

My name is Fillmore and I'm a gamer.

[Flying W Ramrod]

Where could a person find these inserts?

Once the ROC puts this to rest, I'll send you the link.

Regards

[Sedalia Dave]

Thanks Grizz and CC.

Wow, I ask simple question and all of a sudden I'm a gamer/cheater. I really don't appreciate those comments and I'm not going to say what I want lest I get banned from here. Next time I'll just send a PM to Mr. PWB.

For the record I have already shot matches pulling shot shells out of my unmodified vest pockets. Both of the vests I own have pockets that will hold 4 shot shells. The pockets are shallow enough that the shells do stick out a bit. The problem is when you grab 2 the remaining 2 tend to fall over. I am not trying to bend the rules, I just want to know if I can put something in there to keep the shells upright. If I can't then fine, I'll still use the vest pocket which IS legal; I'll just grab 4 at a time. If anything I am hurting myself.

My post was not meant to imply that you are now or ever will be a gamer. Not sure how that got implied but that WAS NOT my intention. If I offended you I am sorry.

 

My post was meant to point out that while loose shells in a pocket provide no shooting advantage, I can envision a time when someone will figure out a way to gain a competitive advantage by fashioning special pockets on a shirt or vest in non-traditional locations just to allow SG shells to be pulled and loaded quicker. Bandoleers are allowed but they cannot be tied down however change the rules and allow them to be tied down and soon folks will figure out that a tied down bandoleer can be faster for shotgun loading than any belt.

 

Again I NEVER meant to offend you or put into question your character. Sorry it came across that way.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Maybe this is another rule that needs to go away!! It's not like using a pouch with loops wud be a competitive advantage over a ammo belt of any kind!!!!

 

that would serve two purposes, one something for the TGs to vote on, and 2 make the rule books smaller

[Yul Lose]

At the Western Regional in August there was a vendor that was selling vests with the pockets being able to hold SG shells in an upright position. I didn't see anyone using them but thought that that was an interesting idea.

[Tyrel Cody]

My post was not meant to imply that you are now or ever will be a gamer. Not sure how that got implied but that WAS NOT my intention. If I offended you I am sorry.

 

My post was meant to point out that while loose shells in a pocket provide no shooting advantage, I can envision a time when someone will figure out a way to gain a competitive advantage by fashioning special pockets on a shirt or vest in non-traditional locations just to allow SG shells to be pulled and loaded quicker. Bandoleers are allowed but they cannot be tied down however change the rules and allow them to be tied down and soon folks will figure out that a tied down bandoleer can be faster for shotgun loading than any belt.

 

Again I NEVER meant to offend you or put into question your character. Sorry it came across that way.

It's fine and I see your point. I guess just seeing words like "gamer" and "spirit" of the game"(I know you didn't say this one)tossed around in one of my threads bothers me and a few of my friends No apology needed, but I do appreciate it.

[Most Wanted]

My post was not meant to imply that you are now or ever will be a gamer. Not sure how that got implied but that WAS NOT my intention. If I offended you I am sorry.

 

My post was meant to point out that while loose shells in a pocket provide no shooting advantage, I can envision a time when someone will figure out a way to gain a competitive advantage by fashioning special pockets on a shirt or vest in non-traditional locations just to allow SG shells to be pulled and loaded quicker. Bandoleers are allowed but they cannot be tied down however change the rules and allow them to be tied down and soon folks will figure out that a tied down bandoleer can be faster for shotgun loading than any belt.

 

Again I NEVER meant to offend you or put into question your character. Sorry it came across that way.

 

Probably the best hammered SxS shooter in the country ( won EOT speed hammered SxS ) uses a bandoleer . If you ever see Dutch Coroner shoot you would want one and realize that you don't need to tie them down . It will always come down to how much work the shooter puts in .

[Waimea]

I knew Tyrel was a gamer from the first time I met him on the wire.

 

Using pockets for SG shells... FOR SHAME!

 

Next thing you know he'll be stuffin' them up his sleeve!

 

Run him outta town on a rail -- I say.

 

Oh what...gotta go my wife says I need to take my meds now.

 

 

 

Waimea

 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

It's fine and I see your point. I guess just seeing words like "gamer" and "spirit" of the game"(I know you didn't say this one)tossed around in one of my threads bothers me and a few of my friends No apology needed, but I do appreciate it.

I was the one that used spirit of the game and it wasn't meant implying you were a "gamer" but that some of the suggestions were. What I meant was that if someone fashioned up some crazy contraption that turned a pocket into something else, then the spirit of the game isn't there. If someone was using it as a pocket, we then the spirit is there right? I too wear a vest and have stuffed the pockets full of shells before I had a belt. If that had been some kind of advantage, I certainly wouldn't have bought a belt. I think I dropped more shells than I fired at one point. I think the whole concept of spirit of the game is one of those things where you know it when you see it. I apologize if I in anyway conveyed that you personally violated this.

[Tyrel Cody]

Thanks for clarifying, it's all good. Maybe some of us are a bit touchy when some words get thrown around. By the way I think what you describe is gaming/cheating. Spirit of the Game is when a shooter disregards stage instructions to gain a competitive advantage, e.g. refusing to try and lasso a horse or not carrying a bag of gold across the stage.

[Grizzly Dave]

Thanks for clarifying, it's all good. Maybe some of us are a bit touchy when some words get thrown around. By the way I think what you describe is gaming/cheating. Spirit of the Game is when a shooter disregards stage instructions to gain a competitive advantage, e.g. refusing to try and lasso a horse or not carrying a bag of gold across the stage.

 

Two sides of the same coin Tyrel, the bad side, is the penalty you describe, the good side is playing by the rules and being the embodiment of the mythical cowboy way.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I love it when folks think being a "Gamer" is a bad thing...

 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Like Grizz said, ol' Tyrel is a fairly new shooter and was only asking a question. If you ask first it ain't bein' gamey!

Tain't nothing wrong with being gamey, cause we do use a timer

Thanks for clarifying, it's all good. Maybe some of us are a bit touchy when some words get thrown around. By the way I think what you describe is gaming/cheating. Spirit of the Game is when a shooter disregards stage instructions to gain a competitive advantage, e.g. refusing to try and lasso a horse or not carrying a bag of gold across the stage.

Ta Daaaa!!

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Since the rules do not clarify the pocket issue, wondering why spirit of the game comes into play. What stage instruction is the shooter disobeying?

[Grizzly Dave]

 

SPIRIT OF THE GAME

As the game of Cowboy Action Shooting™ has evolved, our members have developed and

adopted an attitude towards their participation we call “The Spirit of the Game.” Competing in

The Spirit of the Game means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not

look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting

procedure. Some folks would call The Spirit of the Game nothing more than good

sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not

your game.

A “spirit of the game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards

the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage (i.e., taking the penalty would

result in a lower score or faster time than following the instructions) and is not assessed simply

because a competitor “makes a mistake.” In such a case, in addition to any penalties for misses,

a 30-second failure to engage/Spirit of the Game penalty is assessed. Shooting ammunition that

does not meet the power factor or minimum velocity is also a “spirit of the game” infraction.

Two “spirit of the game” penalties within a match will result in a Match Disqualification.

[Gawd Awful]

I love it when folks think being a "Gamer" is a bad thing...

 

+1.

 

It is after all a game right? So finding the best way to play the game is, by definition, part of the game

[Grizzly Dave]

context makes a difference.

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

 

Probably the best hammered SxS shooter in the country ( won EOT speed hammered SxS ) uses a bandoleer . If you ever see Dutch Coroner shoot you would want one and realize that you don't need to tie them down . It will always come down to how much work the shooter puts in .

+1

I was a BM at the Mason Dixon regional and I got to watch him. Amazingly FAST!!!

 

Nawlins

[Michigan Slim]

I sometimes use pockets as my shell slide only holds 6. Kinda sucks when your shoving a shell into the left barrel and a lighter and couple a smokes inta the right one!

[Blastmaster]

Both Gamer & Good Ol Boy have different meanings, depending on how and whom it is used upon.

[Two Spurs]

I love it when folks think being a "Gamer" is a bad thing...

 

 

This never ceases to amaze me either. Having the desire to improve yourself and do well is looked down on? Sounds like something that might get twisted by a certain political party...

[Ramblin Gambler]

Tyrel, not sure exactly what you are planning to do with the elastic, but you can also fix your problem by just putting some stitches down the center of the pocket to divide it in 2. Don't ask me how you do that and make it look good though, cause I have no idear.

 

I always thought the pouch rule was strange. Does anyone know the history or reasoning behind it?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Tyrel, not sure exactly what you are planning to do with the elastic, but you can also fix your problem by just putting some stitches down the center of the pocket to divide it in 2. Don't ask me how you do that and make it look good though, cause I have no idear.

 

I always thought the pouch rule was strange. Does anyone know the history or reasoning behind it?

 

Yes...I can give you first-hand info on that one.

 

That was the ONLY way the WB would approve the use of "pouches" for carrying ammo for stage reloads.

 

Prior to that, one of the WB (SASS #1) attended a match at which some of the shooters were using nylon/canvas "trap buckets" from which to load shotgun ammo.

That lead to an immediate outright BAN on pouches of ANY kind ... pockets, ammo belts, slides and (unsecured) bandoliers were the ONLY approved method for carrying ammo on the person.

(fwiw - it was also ruled by the WB that a "tied-down" bandolier was a SUSPENDER...& NOT LEGAL).

 

Some of us were using "period" ammo/cap belt pouches to carry ammo to the LT (and empty brass from the ULT).

After a few months of harassing the WB about the ban on a period method of carrying ammo, the Judge assigned a few of us to write up regulations that would be acceptable, but that would continue to OUTLAW the "trap buckets".

The result is the current rule and restrictions regarding the use of POUCHES.

It allows the type that we had already been using, as well as saddlebags, fowlers bags, and other methods that meet the criteria.

 

At the time the allowance was granted, the Territorial Governors served in an advisory capacity ONLY to the Wild Bunch.

The annual TG meeting was held at End of Trail (pre Summit days).

[Snakebite]

 

Yes...I can give you first-hand info on that one.

 

That was the ONLY way the WB would approve the use of "pouches" for carrying ammo for stage reloads.

 

Prior to that, one of the WB (SASS #1) attended a match at which some of the shooters were using nylon/canvas "trap buckets" from which to load shotgun ammo.

That lead to an immediate outright BAN on pouches of ANY kind ... pockets, ammo belts, slides and (unsecured) bandoliers were the ONLY approved method for carrying ammo on the person.

(fwiw - it was also ruled by the WB that a "tied-down" bandolier was a SUSPENDER...& NOT LEGAL).

 

Some of us were using "period" ammo/cap belt pouches to carry ammo to the LT (and empty brass from the ULT).

After a few months of harassing the WB about the ban on a period method of carrying ammo, the Judge assigned a few of us to write up regulations that would be acceptable, but that would continue to OUTLAW the "trap buckets".

The result is the current rule and restrictions regarding the use of POUCHES.

It allows the type that we had already been using, as well as saddlebags, fowlers bags, and other methods that meet the criteria.

 

At the time the allowance was granted, the Territorial Governors served in an advisory capacity ONLY to the Wild Bunch.

The annual TG meeting was held at End of Trail (pre Summit days).

Yep.... that's the way it was. As for the pockets... it seems like carrying ammo in your pocket kinda turns it into a ammo pouch... one made of cloth and affixed to your clothing... but the fact is, the rules do not address pockets to any degree. The next fact is......................... who gives a flying $%#@.... it's a slow way to retrieve shells, and I certainly see no advantage to it.

 

Snakebite

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Yep.... that's the way it was. As for the pockets... it seems like carrying ammo in your pocket kinda turns it into a ammo pouch... one made of cloth and affixed to your clothing... but the fact is, the rules do not address pockets to any degree. The next fact is......................... who gives a flying $%#@.... it's a slow way to retrieve shells, and I certainly see no advantage to it.

 

Snakebite

Exactly!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Still dunt see the purpose of keeping the rule about pouches either!!! throw it out and this isn't a concern!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Still dunt see the purpose of keeping the rule about pouches either!!! throw it out and this isn't a concern!

 

Pouches are a separate issue. Changing THAT rule would require a 2/3 vote of the TGs at the Summit (the next one, not the one upcoming).

 

I'm not going to pursue that issue due to the WB's original position (see post #58),

 

Even though the "pouch rule" precludes the use of "period" wooden block inserts in a pouch (one example being a percussion cap pouch converted for cartridge use).

 

FWIW - The ROC comments are beginning to come in on the POCKET issue.

 

One thing to keep in mind regarding equipment modifications...it is BEST to have any innovative ideas (inserts or specialty vests)

PRE-APPROVED by the ROC or WB well before putting such items out on the open market.

Saves the embarrassment of recall or PO'd customers in case of failure to approve for competition.

 

That last statement might give y'all an idea of which way the wind seems to be blowing on this issue, mainly due to concerns that NO REGULATION at all will open the door to "unintended consequences".

[Anvil Al #59168]

+1

 

On the unintended consequences

 

Kind of why I hope they say no.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I hope all my competitors wud use pockets for their ammo!! even with dividers or what ever!!!!!

[Anvil Al #59168]

I hope all my competitors wud use pockets for their ammo!! even with dividers or what ever!!!!!

 

 

That's how I fee right now.

 

But think about someone making a shallow pocket on there shirt. Wide enough to hold 4 shells

with the little holders holding them up and higher that the edge of there shirt.

 

I can see someone doing that. Not that I think it would be faster.

But just hate to see it go that far.

And we all know someone will.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

It appears that there are already some "specialty" items out there (pocket inserts and custom-made vests).

 

IF those are deemed "not approved" for carrying ammo for stage reloads, the applicable penalty would be the "P + Miss(es)" for "Use of illegally acquired ammunition".

[Snakebite]

I hope all my competitors wud use pockets for their ammo!! even with dividers or what ever!!!!!

Howdy Cheyenne..... just wondering.... would a pocket sewn up on the right breast of a shirt or vest, with these inserts make it an advantage for loading a 97? Would the Belly button rule apply?

 

Just throwing some chaff into the issue.

 

Snakebite

[Wyatt]

I'm putting my design for a loading vest on hold......for now 😉

[Grizzly Dave]

inside existing pockets I don't see an issue.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Howdy Cheyenne..... just wondering.... would a pocket sewn up on the right breast of a shirt or vest, with these inserts make it an advantage for loading a 97? Would the Belly button rule apply?

 

Just throwing some chaff into the issue.

 

Snakebite

It doesn't apply to bandoleers,,,,, or wut ever that's called,,,, reach in a pocket to grab shells an advantage????