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Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

Rule change?

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Really, I don't want to run the timer if I have to decide the condition of the lever while the shooter is IN MOTION. Who can say if that lever was a little bit open before it hit the table or not? No one can reliably see or prove that. It's going to become an unwritten "no call" everywhere because no one is going to want the interpersonal conflict of trying to call that. If that's the intention of the new rule, then we need to scrap this and put the old rule back in pronto. At least with the old rule the call was made based on the gun's final resting place. Everyone could gather around and say "yep, that's closed. sorry."

 

And that's too bad, because I really liked the new rule as it related to those horse props where the guns can easily turn over or close. Wasn't so pleased with the closed gun when vertically staged thing... but that was the consequence of doing it like this. We need one or the other. Either we do the old rule, or take the new rule all the way so we don't have to play the "what was the shooter's intent" game.

 

Just my opinion here of course, but this is just custom made to start arguments on the line.

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Just my opinion here of course, but this is just custom made to start arguments on the line.

 

I agree,

 

....and the Wire.... ;)

 

 

..........Widder

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Look....We knew some rewrite/correction/clarification was coming...

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222647&p=2885054

The additional rewrites/corrections/clarifications have been submitted for publication.

Final review is currently under way among the ROC & WB.

There is no plan to open up the verbiage for discussion here on the Wire.


I guess I just didn't expect to see it reading this way.

http://sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.php

I'll reserve the other thing I was going to say for later....

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The issue is NOT answered.....again. The way it reads the long guns have to be open and empty or a penalty of a minor safety will assessed if somone other than the shooter did not close the action from the time the shooter set the gun down and he shot his next gun or finished the string. Quote: "A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not discarded open and empty." "If the action of a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter."....."after" being discarded....not "while" being discarded...so....if the gun somehow gets closed by outside forces and is clear and empty after shooter has set it down "open and empty"...."NO CALL!" If it closes "while" being discarded....OOPS!....10 Seconds.

 

I am in agreement that the wording needs work, but, what needs the most work is the mind set setting the rule. Tex might be saying someone should not be penalized for "accidently" closing a cleared and empty long gun when staging it, but, no can police that. Either go one way or the other - Long gun action closed - empty and cleared - "NO CALL" ---or Long gun action closed - empty and cleared - "MSV"....IMHO If we have to, just bring back the old rule.

 

 

KCD -

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We did about 147 pages on this a few weeks ago.

 

I bet this hits 148! :lol:

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Maybe the RO commitee will clarify the situation.

I thought they already have.

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The issue is NOT answered.....again. The way it reads the long guns have to be open and empty or a penalty of a minor safety will assessed if somone other than the shooter did not close the action from the time the shooter set the gun down and he shot his next gun or finished the string. Quote: "A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not discarded open and empty." "If the action of a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter."....."after" being discarded....not "while" being discarded...so....if the gun somehow gets closed by outside forces and is clear and empty after shooter has set it down "open and empty"...."NO CALL!" If it closes "while" being discarded....OOPS!....10 Seconds.

 

I am in agreement that the wording needs work, but, what needs the most work is the mind set setting the rule. Tex might be saying someone should not be penalized for "accidently" closing a cleared and empty long gun when staging it, but, no can police that. Either go one way or the other - Long gun action closed - empty and cleared - "NO CALL" ---or Long gun action closed - empty and cleared - "MSV"....IMHO If we have to, just bring back the old rule.

 

 

KCD -

The old rule created an issue with the definition of open and/or closed. That's how we got here.

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You know, I keep waiting for one of the powers that be to say "I'm going and taking my ball with me..."

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Yo PWB...it'd be good if'n you'd provide a little light on this here sitiation! I saw the light up until the rulebook was updated and now I'm in the dark again :ph34r:

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Target misses are by accident, shooting targets out of order is most always by accident, leaving an empty in your shot gun is by accident, breaking the 170 is by accident, and all these accidents come with a penalty. Why was it that the rule was changed at all to provide that if the gun's action closes by accident it should not have a penalty? It seems to me that leaving it the shooters responsibility to see that his action is open makes this whole problem go away. How can anyone determine the exact fraction of a second the action closed and what the shooters intent was at that exact fraction of a second? Will some shooters not now lay their guns down as carefully, not being worried about a penalty, that this may now create an unsafe event?

 

I know probably everyone commenting here knows more about this than I do, but I am very confused so I thought I would ask my questions.

 

Thanks,

 

CB

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Target misses are by accident, shooting targets out of order is most always by accident, leaving an empty in your shot gun is by accident, breaking the 170 is by accident, and all these accidents come with a penalty. Why was it that the rule was changed at all to provide that if the gun's action closes by accident it should not have a penalty? It seems to me that leaving it the shooters responsibility to see that his action is open makes this whole problem go away. How can anyone determine the exact fraction of a second the action closed and what the shooters intent was at that exact fraction of a second? Will some shooters not now lay their guns down as carefully, not being worried about a penalty, that this may now create an unsafe event?

 

I know probably everyone commenting here knows more about this than I do, but I am very confused so I thought I would ask my questions.

 

Thanks,

 

CB

Do a search and you will come up with LONG threads on this topic in May, 2014, and December 2013. These will help explain "why." However, we are long past that issue. The issue now is what does the modified "new" new rule mean and/or how is it going to be implemented.

 

Just type "action closed" into the search bar and you will find them.

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Ya gotta define "discard"

 

then you must apply that definition to what is currently published in the rule book(s).

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dis·card

verb

disˈkärd/

 

get rid of (someone or something) as no longer useful or desirable.

 

past tense: discarded; past participle: discarded

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dis·card

verb

disˈkärd/

 

get rid of (someone or something) as no longer useful or desirable.

 

past tense: discarded; past participle: discarded

Therefore after the last shot from gun...

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The way I see it.

 

If you KNOW that he closed it on purpose before he set it down. Call it.

 

If you even think it was close on accident when restaging. You don't.

 

 

There. Wasn't that easy.

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Therefore after the last shot from gun...

But the rule reads "after being discarded." The word tense and sentense structure indicates that the discard action has previously happened, not a state of being prior to or during the act of.

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The way I see it.

 

If you KNOW that he closed it on purpose before he set it down. Call it.

 

If you even think it was close on accident when restaging. You don't.

 

 

There. Wasn't that easy.

That's a great solution. Now in addition to figuring the intent of the shooter we are going to overlay the intent of the TO? That ain't the way rules should be written or interpreted.

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The way I see it.

 

If you KNOW that he closed it on purpose before he set it down. Call it.

 

If you even think it was close on accident when restaging. You don't.

 

 

There. Wasn't that easy.

Nope, not anymore than aiming at the wrong target and missing it, then they want to give you a P instead of a miss cause it was obvious you aimed at the wrong target. Can't mind read intent, the rule either has to allow for the action to close when restaging, or go back to the old rule. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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But the rule reads "after being discarded." The word tense and sentense structure indicates that the discard action has previously happened, not a state of being prior to or during the act of.

Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at

the conclusion of each shooting string.

 

Last shot - Rifle is discarded. It has been discarded well before I finally let go of it...

 

Yep...that's it.

 

Phantom

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Just think some are making it harder than it has to be.

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I never understood the rule to be any other way. I've always understood that long guns had to be discarded Open and Empty. It was my understanding that the TG vote added the caveat to not charge a shooter who's gun's action got closed accidentally, unless of course there was a round in it. I thought that was good thing.... I've had it happen to me where I put a rifle down in a window after opening the action only to find out too late that the lever hit the side of the window and closed the action. It cost me a 10 sec penalty... under the new rule I would not have been charged, I like that. Of course we are going to have guys who push everything to the max, and please don't give me that re-staging the SXS baloney... I've been re-staging them for a long time and it's just NOT a big deal. I'm sure that some T.O. won't call it for one reason or another, but it shouldn't be too difficult to see if the shooter put the gun down with the action open. Once that has been established, then the rest is just Elementary!

 

Snakebite

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Just think some are making it harder than it has to be.

 

No, that's not it. Folks just want to know how to enforce rules that are vague and unclear. Make the rules clear and concise and none of this would happen. Anytime a TO/RO has to decide "intent", it's subjective at best.

 

If PWB or anyone with the active ROC needs a jar of industrial strength Tum's.....I don't blame them......it ain't worth the pay.

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No, that's not it. Folks just want to know how to enforce rules that are vague and unclear. Make the rules clear and concise and none of this would happen. Anytime a TO/RO has to decide "intent", it's subjective at best.

 

If PWB or anyone with the active ROC needs a jar of industrial strength Tum's.....I don't blame them......it ain't worth the pay.

Boy isn't that the truth. Proves the old adage that "no good deed goes unpunished."

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Snakebite has it This diacarded talk sounds a lot like where is the ground That was at the convention for about 3 hours. That did' t make much sence either.

Chance

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The way I see it.

 

If you KNOW that he closed it on purpose before he set it down. Call it.

 

If you even think it was close on accident when restaging. You don't.

 

 

There. Wasn't that easy.

Soooo my winning or loosing a major match depends on what you "think" or "Know" ?????? Nope it's not that easy. Especially if your OPINION of the situation can cause a poor call for a shooter.

 

Unless you KNOW the shooters intent how do you justify the call??

 

Did they close there double before staging it vertical for the advantage of not leaning over, or was it a heat of the moment unintentional slip as they ran to the next position???? Do you 100% know for a fact?????? If not are you willing to call it ?????

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I never understood the rule to be any other way. I've always understood that long guns had to be discarded Open and Empty. It was my understanding that the TG vote added the caveat to not charge a shooter who's gun's action got closed accidentally, unless of course there was a round in it. I thought that was good thing.... I've had it happen to me where I put a rifle down in a window after opening the action only to find out too late that the lever hit the side of the window and closed the action. It cost me a 10 sec penalty... under the new rule I would not have been charged, I like that. Of course we are going to have guys who push everything to the max, and please don't give me that re-staging the SXS baloney... I've been re-staging them for a long time and it's just NOT a big deal. I'm sure that some T.O. won't call it for one reason or another, but it shouldn't be too difficult to see if the shooter put the gun down with the action open. Once that has been established, then the rest is just Elementary!

 

Snakebite

 

More than one member of the ROC has stated that a double shooter could LEAGALY shuck their double, then close it to facilate restaging it vertically wich goes Directly against this

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More than one member of the ROC has stated that a double shooter could LEAGALY shuck their double, then close it to facilate restaging it vertically wich goes Directly against this

<confusion mode still on>

 

Why would anyone take an extra step to intentionally close a gun that has been opened and emptied? It seems much more likely that they would just discard it without worrying what its condition (open or closed) is. So, once it's been opened and the empties ejected, do we care what happens? If there are still rounds (empty or live) in it, the shooter will be penalized.

 

<still feeling confused by this discussion>

:blush::ph34r::blush::ph34r: ..

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Call me a nut, but...

 

Why add that wording, only weeks before EOT, if everything/everyone was OK with the wording of the old, new rule and interpretation by the ROC?

 

It sure didn't make anything clearer except in strengthening the position that it must be open and empty after being discarded...much like what was stated in this month's CC.

 

PS. I still not a huge fan of the old, new rule or the new, new rule. However, I am shooting this weekend and would like to know the appropriate action to take if called upon to run a timer.

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<confusion mode still on>

 

Why would anyone take an extra step to intentionally close a gun that has been opened and emptied? It seems much more likely that they would just discard it without worrying what its condition (open or closed) is. So, once it's been opened and the empties ejected, do we care what happens? If there are still rounds (empty or live) in it, the shooter will be penalized.

 

<still feeling confused by this discussion>

:blush::ph34r::blush::ph34r: ..

Vertical restaging of a double barrel shotgun. An open double has a larger footprint than an 87 or 97 and more care has to be taken setting it on a shelf. Also, it often takes two hands to restage a double. You have to use both hands to make sure it stays open. Closing a double for vertical restaging was allowed at Winter Range on down range stages. The question is because of the added word in the "new" new rule, is this still allowed?

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Solution: Change rule back to as before. Gun closed = minor safety. Problem solved.

Change it back to a bad rule...that had issues too.

 

Not much of a suggested fix.

 

;)

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Solution: Change rule back to as before. Gun closed = minor safety. Problem solved.

 

Yeah, and then we can go back to arguing "open" and "closed". No thanks.

 

We had a rule. Then we had another rule which was clarified. Now we have, uh, a problem.

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Yeah, and then we can go back to arguing "open" and "closed". No thanks.

 

We had a rule. Then we had another rule which was clarified. Now we have, uh, a problem.

 

"Houston, we have a problem".

 

I agree.

 

I liked the way everything was defined and verified about 2 weeks ago and seem to make everything official here on the Wire.

 

 

..........Widder

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