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Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

Rule change?

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Just noticed the Rule book updated as of June.

 

It looks like there was a perceived rule change:

 

It was...

 

Long guns will have their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at the conclusion

of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is

not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired.

If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters

hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence and made

safe and then restaged. If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied,

the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter.

Appropriate penalties will be applied if it was not clear. No one other than the competitor

may handle the gun in question.

 

Now it is

Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at

the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if

the firearm is not discarded open and empty. This condition may be corrected prior to the

next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it

leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of

sequence and made safe and then restaged. If the action of a long gun closes after being

discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear

to the TO or a spotter. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it was not clear. No one other

than the competitor may handle the gun in question.

Subtle but big change there...

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We did about 147 pages on this a few weeks ago. Just kidding, but, we have seriously been there, done that. I'm sure you'll be able to do a search and find it.

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Looks like Tex's editorial was more than just his opinion. Someone higher up than the TGs has changed the wording and implications of the rule. Good Lord what is going on in New Mexico?

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Looks like Tex's editorial was more than just his opinion. Someone higher up than the TGs has changed the wording and implications of the rule. Good Lord what is going on in New Mexico?

I think a lot of us are wondering that!

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So this prohibits a double shooter from say closing his double after ejecting his empties for vertical staging. Now the TO gets to decide if gun closed accidently or on purpose. I guess Tex does own SASS and personally gets to make the rules with his editorials. No more EOTs for us.

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If that is verbatim, then the long gun must be open when "discarded"? How in heaven's name will it become other than open after it is discarded unless someone touches it? Seems to exclude the shooter causing it to be closed. I'll wait with interest for our fearless guru to fill in the blanks.

 

Language that covers the clarification so far would read something like " If the long gun is found to be closed at the completion of the stage, it must be opened by the shooter. Empty is a no call, any condition other than empty qualifies the shooter for the appropriate penalty."

 

CR

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strange, but right after the convention, Tex's way is the way a TG explained it to me, accidently closing was ok, not purposeful tho.... I guess before a lot of heat is generated, the exact wording in the minutes should be checked.

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Just noticed the Rule book updated as of June.

It looks like there was a perceived rule change:

It was...

Quote

Long guns will have their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at the conclusion
of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is
not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired.
If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters
hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence and made
safe and then restaged. If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied,
the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter.
Appropriate penalties will be applied if it was not clear. No one other than the competitor
may handle the gun in question.



Now it is

Quote

Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at
the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if
the firearm is not discarded open and empty. This condition may be corrected prior to the
next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it
leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of
sequence and made safe and then restaged. If the action of a long gun closes after being
discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear
to the TO or a spotter. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it was not clear. No one other
than the competitor may handle the gun in question.

Subtle but big change there...

Hmmm :huh: Looks like they threw in a couple of "discarded" instead of "cleared" and "opened and emptied" I ain't sure, but I don't see how this changes the new rule in any way. If I "discard' my double into a vertical staging prop and it closes I still just have to show the TO or spotter at the end.

 

Now on the other hand, if they have changed those two words to mean something else then they should just go ahead and make it very clear that this is what it now implies :wacko: If that's a fact then they should just do away with it and go back to the way it was :o .....................Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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So this prohibits a double shooter from say closing his double after ejecting his empties for vertical staging. Now the TO gets to decide if gun closed accidently or on purpose. I guess Tex does own SASS and personally gets to make the rules with his editorials. No more EOTs for us.

 

I think a lot of us are wondering that!

Seems a bit harsh to quit EOT because a gun must be OPEN and EMPTY before re-staging since that's been the rule FOREVER.

 

I'm with RJ here as it seems to me that Tex (mouth piece of the WB) continues to add ballast just as Misty keeps working overtime to get the SASS balloon to launch.

 

What the hell would be wrong with those on the WB board just letting her do her friggin' job?

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Seems a bit harsh to quit EOT because a gun must be OPEN and EMPTY before re-staging since that's been the rule FOREVER.

 

I'm with RJ here as it seems to me that Tex (mouth piece of the WB) continues to add ballast just as Misty keeps working overtime to get the SASS balloon to launch.

 

What the hell would be wrong with those on the WB board just letting her do her friggin' job?

Maybe cause they still own it, lock, stock & barrel!

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I'm with RJ here as it seems to me that Tex (mouth piece of the WB) continues to add ballast just as Misty keeps working overtime to get the SASS balloon to launch.

 

What the hell would be wrong with those on the WB board just letting her do her friggin' job?

Exactly!!!

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If that is verbatim, then the long gun must be open when "discarded"? How in heaven's name will it become other than open after it is discarded unless someone touches it? Seems to exclude the shooter causing it to be closed. I'll wait with interest for our fearless guru to fill in the blanks.

 

Language that covers the clarification so far would read something like " If the long gun is found to be closed at the completion of the stage, it must be opened by the shooter. Empty is a no call, any condition other than empty qualifies the shooter for the appropriate penalty."

 

CR

Howdy Rick, I agree....how else am I gonna be discarding it except open and empty :wacko: . If it closes there are several examples of the call, if it's empty it's a No Call. Anything else and we're back to mind reading intent again :blink: .

I'm glad the WBAS decided to not even think about changing their rule. Good Luck :)

 

Examples:

A Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and nothing is ejected and the chamber is empty — NO CALL.

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Misty attempted to address this issue back in May. Unfortunately the rule she quoted and the "new" rule aren't the same. The word "discarded" was not in the rule she discussed. At several matches under the "old" rule if you shucked the empties out of a double and closed the action to, for example, facilitate restaging it vertically, it was a no-call. Now it appears that will be a penalty. Hopefully, this will be addressed at the EOT posse marshal meeting so everyone is on the same page.

 

See post 129. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222647&page=4

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strange, but right after the convention, Tex's way is the way a TG explained it to me, accidently closing was ok, not purposeful tho.... I guess before a lot of heat is generated, the exact wording in the minutes should be checked.

 

 

+1

Think that was the intent all along even when voted on. They just needed to get the wording right to match it.

 

Making a mountain out of a mole hill.

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So....did the shooter INTENTIONALLY close the action on the SXS when he slammed it the wrong way into the staging prop?

 

Not if I'm running the timer.

 

GUN IS CLEAR? Next shooter.

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Well, I thought I had this new (old) rule understood, especially after Misty clarified a couple weeks back that the interpretation shared on the Wire by PWB was the correct interpretations.

 

NOW, will somebody please tell us AGAIN what IS the intent of the New New rule interpretation.

 

 

..........Widder

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Define 'discard'?

 

We can probably say the start of the process of discarding/getting rid of/abonding of long gun is after the last shot of the string and you are starting to make long gun safe (restage). So when is the conclusion of the process of discarding the long gun? When your hand(s) no longer have contact with long gun or no longer have control of firearm? I would think so. 'If' that is the case, then the long guns action must be open and empty through the process, or at least at the conclusion of the process of discarding, which means the action must be open and clear after yer fingers are no longer in contact.

 

Just a thought

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My question is below and I'm not trying to be an ass......

 

When is the firearm discarded?

 

Shooter is running up to a table with an OPEN and EMPTY rifle. As he or she is putting it on the table the lever closes. They are still holding the rifle for a split second with the lever closed....are they discarding it open and empty still when they let go of the gun?

 

Shooter is restaging a shotgun vertically OPEN and EMPTY. The action closes BEFORE they let go of the gun. If they don't change the condition of the gun....Did they discard it open and empty?

 

Shooter is restaging a rifle vertically OPEN and EMPTY. He or she sets the gun down with some force and the lever closes while they still are holding barrel. If they let go of the gun did they discard it open and empty?

 

Personally......about the only way for this rule to change anything is when a gun is dropped onto a table or prop. In just about every other instance the shooter is still in contact with the gun. They would be in the process of DISCARDING the gun. Only when they have released the gun would it then be DISCARDED.

 

Stan

 

PS. A good man/woman can only turn the other cheek so many times upon being slapped in the face. A good leader should be understanding of this especially when the tangible compensation offered for the effort given is 0

 

PSS....My unending gratitude and support goes out to the active ROC members.

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So....did the shooter INTENTIONALLY close the action on the SXS when he slammed it the wrong way into the staging prop?

 

Not if I'm running the timer.

 

GUN IS CLEAR? Next shooter.

BK,

 

that would be great if all posses and RO/TO did/called the same thing. Just image you being called back to fix the SG that closed by ???action and your competion/buddy got the break and blazed on for the victory and white ribbon that cost both of you $$$ to compete for. LOL.

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I agree with Stan.

 

Sure sounds like in the vast majority of cases, the (rule as rewritten) would require a minor safety penalty if the gun is not open when it is laying on the prop and the shooter goes for the next gun.

 

A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not discarded open and empty.

 

 

Seems like the rest of the paragraph is pretty useless and confusing.

 

So, yup, I'm confused.

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So....did the shooter INTENTIONALLY close the action on the SXS when he slammed it the wrong way into the staging prop?

 

Not if I'm running the timer.

 

GUN IS CLEAR? Next shooter.

Ta Daaaa!!! :D

 

BK,

 

that would be great if all posses and RO/TO did/called the same thing. Just image you being called back to fix the SG that closed by ???action and your competion/buddy got the break and blazed on for the victory

Ta Daaaa!!! :D .....Wait a minute :huh: , I can't Ta Da both of those, it's gotta be one or the other :wacko:

I like "Gun Is Clear? Next Shooter" Ta Daaa!! ;)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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<confusion mode on>

Why would someone intentionally close a long gun's action? They wouldn't!

 

One opens the action at the end of the string to ensure that no rounds remain, which would earn a MSV or SDQ if closed and an empty or live round remains.

 

If a long gun closes after being opened (it doesn't matter if it is on purpose or an accident) there will be a penalty if a round remains in the gun. There should be no penalty if the gun is empty.

 

I really am confused by why we are having this discussion. :ph34r:

 

<confusion mode still pending an explanation>

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Ta Daaaa!!! :D

 

Ta Daaaa!!! :D .....Wait a minute :huh: , I can't Ta Da both of those, it's gotta be one or the other :wacko:

I like "Gun Is Clear? Next Shooter" Ta Daaa!! ;)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

You would like the Ta Da if the call went your way and would be bummed if you had to go back and fix the long gun, and knowing you were good to go, and really bummed if you knew it, (and it will happen), that the other shooter(s) got the Ta Da.

 

There is only so much 'you are the bug and they are the windshield' & if you don't like it, whip out $50 for protesting procedures thingy one can digest.

 

Just saying

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Allie.....there are plenty of double shooters that would intentionally close the action of their shotgun when restaging vertically if they were allowed to do so.

 

We are discussing this again because the wording was CHANGED from what was posted on here by the ROC and by Misty Moonshine. The subsequent changes to wording (adding "discarded open and empty) has CHANGED how the rule can be interpreted.

 

Counter to what you just wrote...you can't close the shotgun on purpose and then restage it under this new wording....it wouldn't be open and empty upon being discarded.....right?

 

Stan

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<confusion mode on>

Why would someone intentionally close a long gun's action? They wouldn't!

 

One opens the action at the end of the string to ensure that no rounds remain, which would earn a MSV or SDQ if closed and an empty or live round remains.

 

If a long gun closes after being opened (it doesn't matter if it is on purpose or an accident) there will be a penalty if a round remains in the gun. There should be no penalty if the gun is empty.

 

I really am confused by why we are having this discussion. :ph34r:

 

<confusion mode still pending an explanation>

AM,

 

I have already witnessed some one intentionally closing the action then sitting gun down (after these new rulings were explained,,,,you might call it just another brain fart moment). Absolutely everything is possible with the more mature challenged shooters in todays game. I witness some real dozzes this weekend.

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<confusion mode on>

Why would someone intentionally close a long gun's action? They wouldn't!

 

One opens the action at the end of the string to ensure that no rounds remain, which would earn a MSV or SDQ if closed and an empty or live round remains.

 

If a long gun closes after being opened (it doesn't matter if it is on purpose or an accident) there will be a penalty if a round remains in the gun. There should be no penalty if the gun is empty.

 

I really am confused by why we are having this discussion. :ph34r:

 

<confusion mode still pending an explanation>

Because the rule just got changed in the rule book.

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Well, I thought I had this new (old) rule understood, especially after Misty clarified a couple weeks back that the interpretation shared on the Wire by PWB was the correct interpretations.

 

NOW, will somebody please tell us AGAIN what IS the intent of the New New rule interpretation.

 

 

..........Widder

Yep, I thought I understood it too. Now I need someone to clarify the clarification!

 

Laz

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this is how I see it, if upon restaging a long gun it hits something or such and closes no call, but if you do so on purpose, a msv...

 

like I said before, what was the wording when voted on?

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<confusion mode on>

Why would someone intentionally close a long gun's action? They wouldn't!

 

One opens the action at the end of the string to ensure that no rounds remain, which would earn a MSV or SDQ if closed and an empty or live round remains.

 

If a long gun closes after being opened (it doesn't matter if it is on purpose or an accident) there will be a penalty if a round remains in the gun. There should be no penalty if the gun is empty.

 

I really am confused by why we are having this discussion. :ph34r:

 

<confusion mode still pending an explanation>

There typically isn't reason to close a rifle or 97 intentionally. A closed double is easier to restage vertical or in a plywood horse with the U shaped cut outs.

 

I've been to 18 matches since this rule took effect and I've seen ZERO problems with the rule as written. I've even closed my double intentionally a couple of times when restaging on a narrow shelf along side the rifle. In my opinion this is safer as there is less chance of either gun falling.

 

Let's not forget this whole ordeal started because people were having trouble with the definition of open and closed actions. The closed gun being a no call was supposed to fix that.

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Say whatever you want, Blaster.... I'm just not going to get involved in trying to figure out what the shooter's intent was when the gun closed.

 

Allie.....there are plenty of double shooters that would intentionally close the action of their shotgun when restaging vertically if they were allowed to do so.

 

We are discussing this again because the wording was CHANGED from what was posted on here by the ROC and by Misty Moonshine. The subsequent changes to wording (adding "discarded open and empty) has CHANGED how the rule can be interpreted.

 

Counter to what you just wrote...you can't close the shotgun on purpose and then restage it under this new wording....it wouldn't be open and empty upon being discarded.....right?

 

Stan

So...the shooter holds the SXS by the fore-end and as he re-stages the action closes. INTENTIONAL or just a smart re-stage.... I know ...here come the SOG whackos....

 

FCS... XXX was wrong with Misty's clarification and reassurance to the ROC and TG less than 2 weeks ago? Seriously... those who stir the sh** should have to lick the spoon.

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this is how I see it, if upon restaging a long gun it hits something or such and closes no call, but if you do so on purpose, a msv...

 

like I said before, what was the wording when voted on?

 

Howdy CheyAnnie.

 

There lies the problem. We can't assume to know if the shooters intent was on purpose or accidental.

 

Misty's interpretation seem to clarify everything well. NOW, well...who knows.

 

p.s. - I'll call you tonight. Got a good time for me to call?

 

 

..........Widder

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Misty attempted to address this issue back in May. Unfortunately the rule she quoted and the "new" rule aren't the same. The word "discarded" was not in the rule she discussed. At several matches under the "old" rule if you shucked the empties out of a double and closed the action to, for example, facilitate restaging it vertically, it was a no-call. Now it appears that will be a penalty. Hopefully, this will be addressed at the EOT posse marshal meeting so everyone is on the same page.

 

See post 129. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222647&page=4

Howdy Larsen, I don't know why we should have to wait for EOT if they really have changed it again by adding two words. As far as I'm concerned this has already been throughly disscused twice, with clarification from PW and Misty. If there is a new rule, new rule, new rule, then they ought to just go ahead and say so. Good Luck at EOT :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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We did about 147 pages on this a few weeks ago. Just kidding, but, we have seriously been there, done that. I'm sure you'll be able to do a search and find it.

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