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Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

Rule change?

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Reads to me like... If a gun is not discarded open AND empty, you get a MSV. It does not read or. So your first and third lines should read 2 MSV.

 

I hope I am wrong, and I have been before. But AND is a big bit different than OR.

 

RO1 pg 24 MSV penalty

Pocket RO card reads the same

 

BTW (for direct comparison)

Here's how the MSV was written in the 2012 RO1 "Penalty Overview" prior to the 2013 TG Summit:

• Not leaving a long gun action open at the end of the shooting string or before the next firearm is fired.
This is the agenda item "as passed" by the TGs (according to posted Summit results):
1) If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, should there be a "no call" if in fact, the firearm is empty, or a penalty if a spent case or live round is ejected? If the gun closes, the shooter will be the ONLY one to touch the gun until it is shown clear or otherwise, at the end of the stage.
For 80.08% Against 19.11% Abstain 0.81% PASS

 

This is the current (typo corrected) recently revised verbiage re: the MSV in the RO1 "Penalty Overview":

 

• Failure to discard long guns “open and empty” (and not corrected before using the next firearm).

 

 

 

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I have such a headache right now :wacko::blink::angry:

 

How long will it take before the typical RO will get this call right on the weekends

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Fellow SASS Members:

 

Over the past month, several issues have highlighted the difference between "intent" and what is actually "legal" under SASS competition rules. Vague, unclear rules can only lead to unhappy competitors- and so we (The Wild Bunch & The RO Committee) all have a goal to make our rules as accurate and "air-tight" as possible.

 

The Wild Bunch's understanding is the Territorial Governors voted to give "some forgiveness" in the case a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty. The Handbook and RO documents published after the Summit in January reflect this understanding . and (dare I say) intent.

 

Finding a closed long gun action at the end of a stage is a rare event; an exception, really. How the long gun came to be closed IS important. The rare, accidental closing is a safety issue the TGs were willing to condone, however, the practice of intentionally closing a long gun and setting it down is not a practice the Wild Bunch Board of Directors are willing to condone. The rule for discarding a long gun has long been "open and empty," and must remain as such.

 

It is my sincere hope that we can all "put this to bed" and move forward as a positive, collective representation of SASS. The final text/rule is reflected in the most recent version of the handbooks and RO documents.

 

Thank you all for your patience and understanding.

 

On behalf of The Wild Bunch & the SASS RO Committee,

 

Misty Moonshine

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Got it.

 

So SxS guys/gals, no closing your action for restaging...that's about the only issue as I see it. Well...97 folks have to be careful too as they could put the 97 down vertically holding the forestock and have the action close...but whatever.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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What's the call

1) Shooter is placing open and empty rifle on table, lever closes THEN shooter releases the rifle.

2) Shooter releases open and empty rifle mid air, lever closes when rifle hits table.

3)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 10 rounds and they shot 9.

4)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 9 rounds and they loaded 10.

5)Shooter places open rifle with spent cartridge on carrier on table.

6)Shooter places open and empty rifle in scabbard, releases rifle then rifle slides into scabbard and action closes.

7)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, action closes then shooter releases gun.

8)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, releases gun then the action closes.

9)Shooter places open and empty rifle on table. While retrieving shotgun shooter its the lever of the rifle and closes the action.

 

Is this correct?

1) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

2) NO CALL

3) MSV MSV MISS (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun) (unfired round)

4) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun)

5) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (spent cartridge left in long gun)

6) NO CALL

7) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

8) NO CALL

9) NO CALL

 

 

Stan

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That's the way I read it Stan.

 

Interesting that if I intentionally close a long gun (say a double) for safer vertical restaging I get an MSV, but if I let go of it before it's fully settled and it closes I'm good. Which is less safe I wonder...

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I guess the people this rule change helps the most are the people who throw their long guns down. Now they can just be sure to let go of it well before it touches the prop, and as long as the muzzle is still in a safe direction, whatever else happens is a no call.

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That's the way I read it Stan.

 

Interesting that if I intentionally close a long gun (say a double) for safer vertical restaging I get an MSV, but if I let go of it before it's fully settled and it closes I'm good. Which is less safe I wonder...

My post was in bad taste.

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Stan, the only thing that I would add is that we have now got to find a new phrase, because the "trifecta" is no longer the "big one" in this instance:

 

Stage set with 10 rifle plates.

 

Instructions state for shooter to, starting on either end, sweep across the 10 plates in order.

 

Shooter gets confused, skips target 9, hits with the 9th round on the 10th plate and places open rifle with live round on carrier on table, draws pistol and goes to town with it.

 

Shooter now will have earned: MSV MSV MISS P (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun) (unfired round) (Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description)

 

 

 

Can we stick with horse racing and go with Superfecta?

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Stan, the only thing that I would add is that we have now got to find a new phrase, because the "trifecta" is no longer the "big one" in this instance:

 

Stage set with 10 rifle plates.

 

Instructions state for shooter to, starting on either end, sweep across the 10 plates in order.

 

Shooter gets confused, skips target 9, P hits with the 9th round on the 10th plate and places open rifle with live round on carrier on table, Miss, MSV draws pistol and goes to town with it.

 

Shooter now will have earned: MSV MSV MISS P (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun) (unfired round) (Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description)

 

 

 

Can we stick with horse racing and go with Superfecta?

The red is what come up with.

 

P for skipping target 9. Miss for not firing 10. MSV for live round in the open carrier. :ph34r:

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I was hoping that there was an easy way out of this being so close to EOT. I was hoping that with a wave of her mouse Misty's note would once again quench that aroused court of advisers.

 

Alas, this has become so complicated that even printing out the very thoughtful and complex SFRS's post (see #180 egads!) makes me shudder to even consider the idea of whipping that sucker out as a flow chart on a closed action call....which BTW are always nasty.

 

"Closed ain't open" seems so simple now, doesn't it?

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No offense meant to you Misty. I apologize for painting with too broad of a brush.

Hi Folks,

 

I don't want to beat you (not just SAH, I mean everyone) up too much. How about thinking that Misty is watching before you insult the WB or anyone for that matter? Or, better yet, how you would feel, if a comment was directed at you or your loved ones. Remember potential new members may be reading and we love nothing more than having our beloved sport grow.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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The red is what come up with.

 

P for skipping target 9. Miss for not firing 10. MSV for live round in the open carrier. :ph34r:

 

Allie, you are missing the new MSV for not discarding open and empty. See PWB post at reply 176.

 

This is the current (typo corrected) recently revised verbiage re: the MSV in the RO1 "Penalty Overview":

 

• Failure to discard long guns “open and empty” (and not corrected before using the next firearm).

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ummmmmm I was asking if my thinking was correct......

 

Is it?

 

Stan - who isn't sure until a certain Wolf with minimal opacity responds.

 

and if it is then Allie you are short a MSV

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ummmmmm I was asking if my thinking was correct......

 

Is it?

 

Stan - who isn't sure until a certain Wolf with minimal opacity responds.

:lol::lol::lol: W2MO....sounds like a molecule from elements on the periodic table

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Stan, the only thing that I would add is that we have now got to find a new phrase, because the "trifecta" is no longer the "big one" in this instance:

 

Stage set with 10 rifle plates.

 

Instructions state for shooter to, starting on either end, sweep across the 10 plates in order.

 

Shooter gets confused, skips target 9, hits with the 9th round on the 10th plate and places open rifle with live round on carrier on table, draws pistol and goes to town with it.

 

Shooter now will have earned: MSV MSV MISS P (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun) (unfired round) (Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description)

 

 

 

Can we stick with horse racing and go with Superfecta?

The Grand Slam Award is when you earned everything you have listed PLUS get the 'bonus'

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OOPs I wasn't done. Or, maybe I should be... :unsure:

 

The new rule only affects a gun that accidentally closes after being set down O&E. In Jack's example, the gun was open and never closed. So, I see one MSV. It would only earn 2 MSVs if it was subsequently closed on an empty.

 

No? :ph34r:

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Got it.

 

So SxS guys/gals, no closing your action for restaging...that's about the only issue as I see it. Well...97 folks have to be careful too as they could put the 97 down vertically holding the forestock and have the action close...but whatever.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

Don't just blame the sxs guys, some rifle shooters were levering 11 times on a 10 stage then setting it down closed so they wouldn't have to worry about it.

Bottom line, the Intent, as I saw it, was if the action closed AFTER discarding open and empty, then penalties might incur. You still had to discard open and empty.

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OOPs I wasn't done. Or, maybe I should be... :unsure:

 

The new rule only affects a gun that accidentally closes after being set down O&E. In Jack's example, the gun was open and never closed. So, I see one MSV. It would only earn 2 MSVs if it was subsequently closed on an empty.

 

No? :ph34r:

Minor Safety #1 - Failure to discard the rifle Open and Empty

Minor Safety #2 - Empty cartridge left if a long gun

 

Stan

 

PS.....Who's on First?

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King, I just tried to think thru a flow chart for this...but I had to stop as I was getting dizzy and sick to my stomach.

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PS The second MSV is only if the action closes on that empty.

 

<run for cover mode on>

 

I know. Confusing, right.

 

Look at the current, June 2014 RO1 book. Flip to the 10 Second Penalties or the pocket RO Card.

 

A shooter is assessed a MSV for not discarding a long gun "open and empty".

 

when a rifle is put down with a round in the carrier, it was not discarded "open and empty".

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I'm teaching an RO1 class Saturday and am prepared to field all questions regarding closed actions, both accidentally and intentionally. Immediately following I'll be teaching Mind Reading 101. No further comments necessary as I know what you're thinking. :P;):D

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Shhhhhhhhhh......be vewy vewy vewy quiet....hehehehehehe.... the WB and ROC are jamming cyberspace with finger pointing... and can't be disturbed right now. :ph34r:

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until a certain Wolf with minimal opacity responds.

 

 

 

This. Is. Awesome. :D

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Let me see if I understand this correctly.

 

And trust me, I'm not trying to be a smart a$$.

 

If I try to SAFELY lay my EMPTY rifle down and the lever closes BEFORE I remove my hand, I must open it before my next firearm is fired. OR get a MS penalty.

 

BUT, if I haphazardly throw it (empty, of course) on the table and the lever closes from hitting the table, its a No Call.

 

SAFE placement, lever closes...........MS

Throw it down, lever closes................No Call.

 

Am I missing something on this?

 

 

..........Widder

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This. Is. Awesome. :D

 

No body ever accused JawBone of having Recticranial Inversion.

 

:lol:

 

 

..........Widder

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What's the call

1) Shooter is placing open and empty rifle on table, lever closes THEN shooter releases the rifle.

2) Shooter releases open and empty rifle mid air, lever closes when rifle hits table.

3)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 10 rounds and they shot 9.

4)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 9 rounds and they loaded 10.

5)Shooter places open rifle with spent cartridge on carrier on table.

6)Shooter places open and empty rifle in scabbard, releases rifle then rifle slides into scabbard and action closes.

7)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, action closes then shooter releases gun.

8)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, releases gun then the action closes.

9)Shooter places open and empty rifle on table. While retrieving shotgun shooter its the lever of the rifle and closes the action.

 

Is this correct?

1) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

2) NO CALL

3) MSV MSV MISS (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun) (unfired round)

4) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun)

5) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (spent cartridge left in long gun)

6) NO CALL

7) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

8) NO CALL

9) NO CALL

 

 

Stan

As I understand what is written.....

1 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty

2 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty. The long gun was under the shooters control as how it was discarded.

3 - MSV for the round on the carrier and a Miss for the unfired round (assuming they shot the other 9 in the correct order)

4 - MSV for the round on the carrier.

5 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty.

6 - This may or may not be a NO CALL depending on range rules for this prop.

7 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty

8 - May or may not be a minor safety depending on how hard the shooter placed the gun on the ground.

9 - No call. The long gun was discarded open and empty.

 

Two minor safeties may be earned if the action is CLOSED and an empty is in the chamber.

 

All the above assumes everything fits the definition of OPEN ACTION/ CLOSED ACTION as listed in the RO-I Glossary of terms.

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Honestly, if I were a match director I would elect to over-ride the new rule, roll things back to before it as until clarification is received things are too confusing to be fairly and consistently applied.

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