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Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

Rule change?

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Honestly, if I were a match director I would elect to over-ride the new rule, roll things back to before it as until clarification is received things are too confusing to be fairly and consistently applied.

AMEN

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Honestly, if I were a match director I would elect to over-ride the new rule, roll things back to before it as until clarification is received things are too confusing to be fairly and consistently applied.

That's some by-GAAAAAAWWWWWD genius right there.

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What's the call

1) Shooter is placing open and empty rifle on table, lever closes THEN shooter releases the rifle.

2) Shooter releases open and empty rifle mid air, lever closes when rifle hits table.

3)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 10 rounds and they shot 9.

4)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 9 rounds and they loaded 10.

5)Shooter places open rifle with spent cartridge on carrier on table.

6)Shooter places open and empty rifle in scabbard, releases rifle then rifle slides into scabbard and action closes.

7)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, action closes then shooter releases gun.

8)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, releases gun then the action closes.

9)Shooter places open and empty rifle on table. While retrieving shotgun shooter its the lever of the rifle and closes the action.

 

Is this correct?

1) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

2) NO CALL

3) MSV MSV MISS (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun) (unfired round)

4) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun)

5) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (spent cartridge left in long gun)

6) NO CALL

7) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

8) NO CALL

9) NO CALL

 

 

Stan

 

I've been a long-time lurker here, but this seems like a good place to weigh in. I agree with the above as the rule is currently written, but you are being penalized twice for the same thing - a round (empty or live) on the carrier of an open rifle causes 2 MSVs. Shouldn't be that way IMHO.

 

Regards

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:):) If you just used the simple rule we have in Wild Bunch this would have ended 6 pages ago. :):):)

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As I understand what is written.....

1 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty

2 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty. The long gun was under the shooters control as how it was discarded.

3 - MSV for the round on the carrier and a Miss for the unfired round (assuming they shot the other 9 in the correct order)

4 - MSV for the round on the carrier.

5 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty.

6 - This may or may not be a NO CALL depending on range rules for this prop.

7 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty

8 - May or may not be a minor safety depending on how hard the shooter placed the gun on the ground.

9 - No call. The long gun was discarded open and empty.

 

Two minor safeties may be earned if the action is CLOSED and an empty is in the chamber.

 

All the above assumes everything fits the definition of OPEN ACTION/ CLOSED ACTION as listed in the RO-I Glossary of terms.

 

Howdy ACE.

 

In the other Thread about "Rule Change - Open & Empty", ya might want to read post #20 by Misty.

 

She answers a previous question on that thread which appears to me a NO CALL on item #2 above.

 

To me, if the action is open when it LEAVES the shooters hand and then closes upon contact with something (even the staging table) and then it closes, its a No Call. AND, it doesn't seem to matter if the shooter dropped it, threw it down or whatever. As long as the action was open when it left the shooters hand.

 

Atleast that is how I'm reading her reply.

 

 

..........Widder

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Howdy ACE.

 

In the other Thread about "Rule Change - Open & Empty", ya might want to read post #20 by Misty.

 

I read the post. Her answer assume the rifle was placed open and empty. In the above answer the rifle was RELEASED IN MID AIR not discarded properly in my humble opinion. Remembering that a CLOSED ACTION mean that it is FULLY CLOSED and capable of firing a round. Many good shooters drop their rifles when they are done with them and the lever never closes.

 

She answers a previous question on that thread which appears to me a NO CALL on item #2 above.

 

To me, if the action is open when it LEAVES the shooters hand and then closes upon contact with something (even the staging table) and then it closes, its a No Call. AND, it doesn't seem to matter if the shooter dropped it, threw it down or whatever. As long as the action was open when it left the shooters hand.

 

Atleast that is how I'm reading her reply.

 

 

..........Widder

And thank you for your very respectful way of questioning my answer.

I am sure if I am incorrect, and we can just drop guns on the tables/props without consequences if the action closes, it will open up another door that we don't want to step through.

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:):) If you just used the simple rule we have in Wild Bunch this would have ended 6 pages ago. :):):)

DING DING DING....we have a winner!

 

 

And thank you for your very respectful way of questioning my answer.

I read the post. Her answer assume the rifle was placed open and empty. In the above answer the rifle was REALEASED IN MID AIR not discarded properly in my humble opinion.

We now have a "NOT DISCARDED PROPERLY" metric to apply? Is that in the rule? Further, on re-reading it clearly does not say that it was "RELEASED IN MID AIR".....

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DING DING DING....we have a winner!

 

 

We now have a "NOT DISCARDED PROPERLY" metric to apply? Is that in the rule? Further, on re-reading it clearly does not say that it was "RELEASED IN MID AIR".....

2) Shooter releases open and empty rifle mid air, lever closes when rifle hits table.

 

You can release you rifle MID AIR if you wish and no penalty will be earned. However if it bounces and falls off the table/prop will will in fact earn a penalty.

The same applies to this act causing the lever/action to close. At least you have an opportunity to correct/remove this penalty before you shoot your next gun.

 

I am sure in the future definition of the word DISCARDED that both our considerations will be taken into account.

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What rule do Wild Bunch matches use for open or closed long guns at the end of a string of fire?

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Honestly, if I were a match director I would elect to over-ride the new rule, roll things back to before it as until clarification is received things are too confusing to be fairly and consistently applied.

then you would not be following current SASS rules at a supposed SASS match. If that is the case, you would be a match director at a local gravel pit- sand lot match. Nothin wrong with that if that is what you want to do and what the match is advertised as.

 

Perhaps you want to be MD for next years State Match.

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Fellow SASS Members:

 

Over the past month, several issues have highlighted the difference between "intent" and what is actually "legal" under SASS competition rules. Vague, unclear rules can only lead to unhappy competitors- and so we (The Wild Bunch & The RO Committee) all have a goal to make our rules as accurate and "air-tight" as possible.

 

The Wild Bunch's understanding is the Territorial Governors voted to give "some forgiveness" in the case a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty. The Handbook and RO documents published after the Summit in January reflect this understanding . and (dare I say) intent.

 

Finding a closed long gun action at the end of a stage is a rare event; an exception, really. How the long gun came to be closed IS important. The rare, accidental closing is a safety issue the TGs were willing to condone, however, the practice of intentionally closing a long gun and setting it down is not a practice the Wild Bunch Board of Directors are willing to condone. The rule for discarding a long gun has long been "open and empty," and must remain as such.

 

It is my sincere hope that we can all "put this to bed" and move forward as a positive, collective representation of SASS. The final text/rule is reflected in the most recent version of the handbooks and RO documents.

 

Thank you all for your patience and understanding.

 

On behalf of The Wild Bunch & the SASS RO Committee,

 

Misty Moonshine

Misty,

 

I respect your efforts to put a happy face on the SASS ruling, but does no one there recognize the potential for subjective rulings here? Who determines the shooter's intent? My belief is that the old rule was better than this, mostly because closed is closed and the reason doesn't matter. Your earlier "clarification" made perfect sense and removed the onus from a TO or RO. We will survive this, but I think the stated safety concern is not real. The action MUST be opened to extract the last fired round. Closing the action is another move, and only worth the effort if stability is a concern.

 

I know it's a done deal for now, but one I hope is reconsidered.

 

CR

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2) Shooter releases open and empty rifle mid air, lever closes when rifle hits table.

 

You can release you rifle MID AIR if you wish and no penalty will be earned. However if it bounces and falls off the table/prop will will in fact earn a penalty.

I saw a guy intentionally drop his open∅ 97 from waist height onto the deck of a gallow and claimed it was legal so long as barrel was still pointed downrange. I think it bounced a couple of times. I say he dropped the gun and a MS be awarded. Been a long time ago and I don't remember what the calll was. If you shoot long enough in SASS you will see some weird stuff.

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2) Shooter releases open and empty rifle mid air, lever closes when rifle hits table.

 

You can release you rifle MID AIR if you wish and no penalty will be earned. However if it bounces and falls off the table/prop will will in fact earn a penalty.

The same applies to this act causing the lever/action to close.

 

I am sure in the future definition of the word DISCARDED that both our considerations will be taken into account.

You DID NOT get that from the OP.

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I saw a guy intentionally drop his open∅ 97 from waist height onto the deck of a gallow and claimed it was legal so long as barrel was still pointed downrange. I think it bounced a couple of times. I say he dropped the gun and a MS be awarded. Been a long time ago and I don't remember what the calll was. If you shoot long enough in SASS you will see some weird stuff.

If he dropped the gun it wasn't a MSV...it's a SDQ. But as long as that sucker lands on the re-staging prop with the barrel pointed downrange it's a NO CALL no matter how many times it bounced.

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Brother King

 

A copy of the original post in full for you edification.

It is post #180 on page 6 if you would care to refer back to that yourself.

I have highlighted in red the question you claim I did not get from the original post.

Please pay particular attention to the words RELEASES OPEN AND EMPTY RIFLE MID AIR

 

 

What's the call

1) Shooter is placing open and empty rifle on table, lever closes THEN shooter releases the rifle.

2) Shooter releases open and empty rifle mid air, lever closes when rifle hits table.

3)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 10 rounds and they shot 9.

4)Shooter places open rifle with live round on carrier on table. Stage called for 9 rounds and they loaded 10.

5)Shooter places open rifle with spent cartridge on carrier on table.

6)Shooter places open and empty rifle in scabbard, releases rifle then rifle slides into scabbard and action closes.

7)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, action closes then shooter releases gun.

8)Shooter places open and empty rifle on ground for vertical staging, releases gun then the action closes.

9)Shooter places open and empty rifle on table. While retrieving shotgun shooter its the lever of the rifle and closes the action.

 

Is this correct?

1) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

2) NO CALL

3) MSV MSV MISS (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun) (unfired round)

4) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (live cartridge left on carrier of long gun)

5) MSV MSV (failure to discard open and EMPTY) (spent cartridge left in long gun)

6) NO CALL

7) MSV (failure to discard OPEN and empty)

8) NO CALL

9) NO CALL

 

 

Stan

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then you would not be following current SASS rules at a supposed SASS match. If that is the case, you would be a match director at a local gravel pit- sand lot match. Nothin wrong with that if that is what you want to do and what the match is advertised as.

 

Perhaps you want to be MD for next years State Match.

 

I understand that, and no, I have no current aspirations of being MD for the state or any other match. But MDs have always had some discretion even while under the umbrella of an official SASS sanctioned match. Fro example plant then poke.

 

My point was this, were I a MD for a match in the near future, I would want the rules applied fairly and consistently for all shooters on all possies. Given the current confusion by folks much more experienced and learned than I am, I personally don't see that happening. For the same action shooters on different possies could get penalized with multiple MSVs, or just one, or none at all.

 

Lastly - going into a match, especially a major match with a new rule that has yet to be fully clarified given all of the variables involved is just folly in my mind.

 

DISCLAIMER - these are my opinions and mine alone and in no way reflect the opinions or policies of any club or match that I am involved with.

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A of H... I apologize... I had this one confused with the other thread. However, I disagree. If it left the shooter's hand empty, didn't fall off the prop and the action was open when it left then it's a NO CALL .....IMNSHO

 

Otherwise we'll all be arguing about the definition of 'mid-air'....is that 1"? 2"? thrown like a rag? Define it or you can't call it... which is why we now have 7 pages.

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:):) If you just used the simple rule we have in Wild Bunch this would have ended 6 pages ago. :):):)

Yep, this has gone to far :wacko:

What rule do Wild Bunch matches use for open or closed long guns at the end of a string of fire?

Howdy GC, in Wild Bunch it's the way it was last year.............WBAS said they were not even gonna think about changing to this new rule . While the original intent may have been a noble attempt to cover when a long gun action closes once in a blue moon, I do not think it is enforceable as is. TO Bill and TO Bob are not gonna enforce it the same way. :angry: IMHO they should just admit it's not workable the way they planned it and go back to the way it has always been......."open and empty"....period ;) Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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A of H... I apologize... I had this one confused with the other thread. However, I disagree. If it left the shooter's hand empty, didn't fall off the prop and the action was open when it left then it's a NO CALL .....IMNSHO

 

Otherwise we'll all be arguing about the definition of 'mid-air'....is that 1"? 2"? thrown like a rag? Define it or you can't call it... which is why we now have 7 pages.

Apology accepted sir.

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As I understand what is written.....

1 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty

2 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty. The long gun was under the shooters control as how it was discarded. This is one of my questions...when is the gun discarded?

3 - MSV for the round on the carrier and a Miss for the unfired round (assuming they shot the other 9 in the correct order) + MSV for not discarding open and empty

4 - MSV for the round on the carrier. + MSV for not discarding open and empty

5 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty. + MSV for spent cartridge left in gun

6 - This may or may not be a NO CALL depending on range rules for this prop. This is purely about SASS rules right now

7 - MSV for failure to discard open and empty

8 - May or may not be a minor safety depending on how hard the shooter placed the gun on the ground. I don't see a reference to that in the rules....this goes back to when is the gun discarded

9 - No call. The long gun was discarded open and empty.

 

Two minor safeties may be earned if the action is CLOSED and an empty is in the chamber. Two Minor Safeties will ALWAYS be earned if there is an empty in the gun....Regardless of the condition of the acton......

 

All the above assumes everything fits the definition of OPEN ACTION/ CLOSED ACTION as listed in the RO-I Glossary of terms.

There are two Minor Safeties available

1 - Leaving empty or live rounds in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was
loaded.
2 - Failure to discard long guns “opena dn empty” (and not corrected before using the next
firearm).
Stan

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ummmmmm I was asking if my thinking was correct......

 

Is it?

 

Stan - who isn't sure until a certain Wolf with minimal opacity responds.

 

and if it is then Allie you are short a MSV

Actually.... He kind of has responded...

 

Go back to post 168 on this thread:

 

 

 

READ the MSV list on page 24 of the RO1 (the as yet uncorrected typo).

 

IF the shooter fails to "discard" the long gun "open AND empty" (i.e. "at the end of the shooting string"), there WILL BE at least one EMPTY round remaining (the brass/hull from the last shot fired)...that certainly looks like TWO MSVs from here...

 

+ any unfired rounds (SDQ if in the chamber) if inadvertently "overloaded" at the LT...

+ MISS(ES) if any unfired round(s) are in the gun because of miscount on the number actually loaded vs those used to engage & hit targets.

 

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I know that......but......When is a gun discarded?

 

Stan

 

I don't discard mine, I re-stage them, discarding to me means I don't want them any more and I'm throwing them away. :D

 

Valid question Stan.

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someone wake me when this is settled......

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Proposed (by me) definition of DISCARDED

 

A firearm will be considered DISCARDED when it is re-staged at the designated position and all motion of that firearm has ceased and the shooters hands are no longer in contact with the firearm.

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I understand that, and no, I have no current aspirations of being MD for the state or any other match. But MDs have always had some discretion even while under the umbrella of an official SASS sanctioned match. Fro example plant then poke.

 

My point was this, were I a MD for a match in the near future, I would want the rules applied fairly and consistently for all shooters on all possies. Given the current confusion by folks much more experienced and learned than I am, I personally don't see that happening. For the same action shooters on different possies could get penalized with multiple MSVs, or just one, or none at all.

 

Lastly - going into a match, especially a major match with a new rule that has yet to be fully clarified given all of the variables involved is just folly in my mind.

 

DISCLAIMER - these are my opinions and mine alone and in no way reflect the opinions or policies of any club or match that I am involved with.

GD,

 

I don't see how people can be confused now. Put the darn long gun down, or restage if that sounds better to you,,,,,, 'open-action AND empty chamber/barrel(s) /magazine/carrier'.

 

Don't even think about adding gost words (intent, accidental, prop did it,Wild Bunch Action Shooting does it, Tex said) to the written rules and try to sell it.

 

Have a good day,

 

PS to All,,,,If this little exercise confuses so many and there are many more that don't read the Wire but probably equally confusable, then we, as a sport have to be very dilligent with any and all (minor/major) safety issues and correct the potential safety concern on the spot and not after the stage is complete. Better to be over causious and give a reshoot than to be quiet. I witnessed two shooters in recent times run past the barrel of their restaged long guns after the posse was given very clear and direct directions to point the long gun into the berm before going down range to next shooting postion.

 

Just saying,

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Proposed (by me) definition of DISCARDED

 

A firearm will be considered DISCARDED when it is re-staged at the designated position and all motion of that firearm has ceased and the shooters hands are no longer in contact with the firearm.

ok.....we're close......I have seen guns move after the shooter properly restaged the gun and it was from the design of the restaging prop and the way the gun was placed in it. Horse prop....shooter places rifle in it and the lever is horizontal. The gun spins after the shooter lets go so the lever in pointing down.

 

So I would suggest not including all motion of the firearm has ceased.

 

A firearm will be considered DISCARDED when it is re-staged at the designated position and the shooters hands are no longer in contact with the firearm.

 

Stan

 

Minimally Opaque Canis Lupus Diminutive of Brun.....where art thou?

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ok.....we're close......I have seen guns move after the shooter properly restaged the gun and it was from the design of the restaging prop and the way the gun was placed in it. Horse prop....shooter places rifle in it and the lever is horizontal. The gun spins after the shooter lets go so the lever in pointing down.

 

So I would suggest not including all motion of the firearm has ceased.

 

A firearm will be considered DISCARDED when it is re-staged at the designated position and the shooters hands are no longer in contact with the firearm.

 

Stan

 

Minimally Opaque Canis Lupus Diminutive of Brun.....where art thou?

The problem with removing the cessation of motion is that a shooter could simply release the gun above the table/prop and claim that the table/prop caused the action to close. (After all they aren't touching it and it is at the designated position). If we can close that loophole I think we have a winner.

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Do we then have to worry about the definition of open and closed? As I recall the rule voted on by the TGs was to make that debate a thing of the past.

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Uh oh! Are we now having to provide a definition similar to what the definition "is" is.

 

I suggest that the ROC, which includes members of the WB, be given time to consider the controversy over the new wording before we comment further.

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Or....the simplest of rules....

WBAS page 11

• Safe conditions of shotgun during a course of fire are as follows:

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– Empty of live ammunition, action open

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

• Safe for movement shotgun in hand only

– Action open, round on carrier.

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed.

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Brother King...

 

Remember in WBAS that there is no penalty for leaving an empty case/hull in an open long gun either

 

Folks may not infer that from the rules you quoted.

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Uh oh! Are we now having to provide a definition similar to what the definition "is" is.

 

I suggest that the ROC, which includes members of the WB, be given time to consider the controversy over the new wording before we comment further.

We have tried that. It did not work.

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