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Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

Rule change?

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"Houston, we have a problem".

 

I agree.

 

I liked the way everything was defined and verified about 2 weeks ago and seem to make everything official here on the Wire.

 

 

..........Widder

Absolutely.

 

And, we are spinning our tires here until whoever made the language change explains why they made it and what was their intent in making the change.

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Absolutely.

 

And,

we are spinning our tires here until whoever made the language change explains why they made it and what was their intent in making the change.

 

BINGO!

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BINGO!

So....are you going to 'splain it, Lucy? Or are you suggesting that this is news to you as well?

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I expect if he could speak as the voice of the ROC and explain it he would have already done so. I can't imagine the ROC would make a change like that without planning in advance what they were going to say about it. The fact that it was unannounced is also interesting.

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More than one member of the ROC has stated that a double shooter could LEAGALY shuck their double, then close it to facilate restaging it vertically wich goes Directly against this

Please let me point out one very important thing... I DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE ROC.. I certainly support them, but since my retirement I now have regained the right to have a public opinion of my own. All ROC members must by the nature of things support the collective decision of the ROC. I do believe that there was a major screw up when the Question was posed, and this left the ROC and the WB with a MESS. JMO

 

Snakebite

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BK, sometimes the ROC is also in the dark.... I gots a feeling that there are some ugly moods rite now.....

 

is that a Bingo?

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"Houston, we have a problem".

 

I agree.

 

I liked the way everything was defined and verified about 2 weeks ago and seem to make everything official here on the Wire.

 

 

..........Widder

Yep, I thought everything was said and done, everyone understood it and vertical props were being built with glee. Not sure why we now have a new, new, new rule :wacko:

 

For Sale......Three new cactus vertical props, made from 3/4" birch plywood, primed but not painted :o:lol:

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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BK, sometimes the ROC is also in the dark.... I gots a feeling that there are some ugly moods rite now.....

 

is that a Bingo?

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So those folks that got shiny RO I and II 2014 pins will have to go back to class again??

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Just put your long guns back 'open & empty', tuck them in tightly, pat them lovenly, say good bye,,,,, then haul ass to the next shooting position!!!! There, no problem and you will not have to deal with this here rule and will not have to sweet being penalized.

 

We're all in this for just the 'fun' right? Braggin rights, the trophies and such are just over rated!! Why it is worth every penny of the hundreds/thousands of dollars it takes to attend an annual and above match just to see and talk to our once a year pards. That should be reward enough. Oh yes, and enjoy a banquet with all and enjoy seeing the costuming contest.

 

 

Don't sweat this rule change because it isn't earned very often.

 

You see a closed action call about as often as,,,, a pistol reload..... or a vertical stage,,, or a stage ending with a rifle.

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I agree with Stan.

 

Sure sounds like in the vast majority of cases, the (rule as rewritten) would require a minor safety penalty if the gun is not open when it is laying on the prop and the shooter goes for the next gun.

 

 

Seems like the rest of the paragraph is pretty useless and confusing.

 

So, yup, I'm confused.

 

Me too Marauder. I think the added verbiage does this. Most statements lose people if the idea isn't clearly conveyed in three to four clear, succinct sentences.

The use of the word discarded is poor in my opinion. It lends the mind to wander especially if the author is vague or can't clearly communicate their message.

Why can't they just say:

"It is the shooters responsibility to see that long arms are made safe and in such a way that actions remain open and clear of any live or discharged ammunition or components."

Don't add all this intentional, unintentional stuff. Adds too many gray areas then we get caught up in lawyer speak.

My kids will always tell me nothing it's not their fault, didn't mean too, so and so is mean, they forgot, their siblings did it, made them do it or lied about it. At which point I punish them all. I figure sooner or later the guilty will learn take responsibility for their mistakes in the future, even in unfortunate events, rather than have their siblings mad at them and no one to play with.

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BINGO!

That folks is a clue that this debacle came from higher up than the ROC. And since Misty was on the same page as the ROC, it ain't too awful difficult to guess where and how this all went down. In fact we don't have to guess cuz we was done told by Tex his ownself in his eeelectronic newspaper.

 

I kind of want to say "I told you so". I started a thread when I read this months CC asking if the editorial was an indication of an impending rule change or just the opinion of the editor. I had a hunch it was the former, but many folks said "don't worry that's just Tex's opinion" or "that's just Tex being Tex stirring the pot". I've come to the conclusion it ain't a pot he was stirrin but rather a cesspool. We all know what comes to the top when you git to stirrin in the cesspool.

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Yep, I thought everything was said and done, everyone understood it and vertical props were being built with glee. Not sure why we now have a new, new, new rule :wacko:

 

For Sale......Three new cactus vertical props, made from 3/4" birch plywood, primed but not painted :o:lol:

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

 

 

Don't sweat this rule change because it isn't earned very often.

 

You see a closed action call about as often as,,,, a pistol reload..... or a vertical stage,,, or a stage ending with a rifle.

Some of us ignorant Match Directors have been writing matches with the new "rule" and the Wire definition of it for a few months now.

Some of us have been phasing vertical staging back in to our matches, and allowing SxS shooters to use the Wire definition.

Some of us have been working diligently to create memorable State Matches

(for instance - Eldorado 2014 was written with 1/4 of the stages utilizing vertical staging this year) - Stages that will be rewritten if the rules that apply to vertical staging are going to remain in a state of flux and uncertainty.

 

The reason that stages change is Match Directors can implement a change with a reasonable expectation that the change will work and be fair for all.

Vertical staging under the new rule and rule "definition" was one of those changes that leveled the playing field between SxS and 87/97 and made for the opportunity for more interesting stages.

Require the SxS to go back to the disadvantaged vertical staging requirements and I have to replace vertical stands with offset tables (again).

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Every time I stage my double barrel vertically using only one hand ...... The darn thing ACCIDENTALLY closes...... <Innocent look> :unsure:

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I tried to vertically stage my sxs closed the other day, muscle memory wouldn't let me,,,,,

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Every time I stage my double barrel vertically using only one hand ...... The darn thing ACCIDENTALLY closes...... <Innocent look> :unsure:

Shooter, please show clear....

 

Next shooter

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Some of us ignorant Match Directors have been writing matches with the new "rule" and the Wire definition of it for a few months now.

Some of us have been phasing vertical staging back in to our matches, and allowing SxS shooters to use the Wire definition.

Some of us have been working diligently to create memorable State Matches

(for instance - Eldorado 2014 was written with 1/4 of the stages utilizing vertical staging this year) - Stages that will be rewritten if the rules that apply to vertical staging are going to remain in a state of flux and uncertainty.

 

The reason that stages change is Match Directors can implement a change with a reasonable expectation that the change will work and be fair for all.

Vertical staging under the new rule and rule "definition" was one of those changes that leveled the playing field between SxS and 87/97 and made for the opportunity for more interesting stages.

Require the SxS to go back to the disadvantaged vertical staging requirements and I have to replace vertical stands with offset tables (again).

The voice of a well respected match director. This has substance and I hope this message is seen by the Wild Bunch. Creeker, I can sympathize with you. I built a new vertical prop at the request of our state match director. It worked well and match directors from two neighboring states either copied it or asked me to build one for them. The rule that was actually voted on by the TGs would have opened up many opportunities for more dynamic stage writing.

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Every time I stage my double barrel vertically using only one hand ...... The darn thing ACCIDENTALLY closes...... <Innocent look> :unsure:

I'm thinking I'll just say "oops" every time I restage a long gun. That way there is no chance anyone will think it was intentional if it closes.

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The voice of a well respected match director. This has substance and I hope this message is seen by the Wild Bunch. Creeker, I can sympathize with you. I built a new vertical prop at the request of our state match director. It worked well and match directors from two neighboring states either copied it or asked me to build one for them. The rule that was actually voted on by the TGs would have opened up many opportunities for more dynamic stage writing.

yep

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There won't be any vertical racks at HOW. Rule or not I don't use them, nor will I ever at a match. We do have wide berms and many options. I think this rule change is not a big surprise. Just more stuff to remember at the safety meetings. It's better than the original rule! Is the WB going to change the rule on wearing blue jeans?

 

Assassin

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I cannot find a problem with the rule. It still allows for accidental closing, which I thought was the original intent of the rule change. I must have missed something.

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Absolutely.

 

And, we are spinning our tires here until whoever made the language change explains why they made it and what was their intent in making the change.

I don't pretend to know anything, but you could always just bring it back to this month'ss CC answer these questions. The verbage used in the new, new rule and the editorial is exactly the same. It would appear as if all the answers and interpretations are therin as well.

 

Open and Empty.

The rule is all long guns must be discarded open and empty. That rule has not changed. In Cowboy Action, one has until the next firearm is discharged to correct the situation. However, weve all seen instance where a long gun is, indeed, opened and cleared only to accidentally close when it gets tossed back into a trough or on a table, or to have the lever slowly close when a rifle is restaged vertically. The Territorial Governors have voted to allow some forgiveness when this happens. In the case of an accidental closing, the shooter is allowed to proceed and is not called back. If the long gun turns out to be closed at the end of the stage, only the shooter may touch the firearm, and the firearm must be demonstrated on the line to, indeed, be clear. If the shooter makes no effort to open the action at the completion of that guns shooting string, it is appropriate for the RO to call the shooter back to open the action (as often happens with newer, inexperienced competitors). If the shooter opens and clears the long gun and then closes it before discarding it, the shooter should be called back to open the action. If the action is not open and empty when discarded, the shooter is wrong, and left unopened, earns the appropriate penalty. It makes a difference how the gun ends up closed at the end of the stage.

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I believe these were the exact words voted on by the TGs and passed by over an 80% margin. I see nothing in this wording that distinguishes from accidental closing from closing on purpose:

 

"If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, should there be a "no call" if in fact, the firearm is empty, or a penalty if a spent case or live round is ejected? If the gun closes, the shooter will be the ONLY one to touch the gun until it is shown clear or otherwise, at the end of the stage. "

 

 

 

 

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I like Misty Moonshine but you have to remember she is only the CEO of a corporation with a Board of Directors. The Board (WB) can override the CEO and, in fact, replace the CEO. It's done all the time, just ask Lee Iacoca.

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I like Misty Moonshine but you have to remember she is only the CEO of a corporation with a Board of Directors. The Board (WB) can override the CEO and, in fact, replace the CEO. It's done all the time, just ask Lee Iacoca.

Uhh...she's a WB member.

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<confusion mode still on>

 

Why would anyone take an extra step to intentionally close a gun that has been opened and emptied? It seems much more likely that they would just discard it without worrying what its condition (open or closed) is. So, once it's been opened and the empties ejected, do we care what happens? If there are still rounds (empty or live) in it, the shooter will be penalized.

 

<still feeling confused by this discussion>

:blush::ph34r::blush::ph34r: ..

 

In AZ certain clubs stage vertical with the butt of the gun on the ground. It's easier to close a double and bend down a little bit holding the top of the barrels (especially if you have bad knees/back or are really tall) then to reach all the way down to where the wrist of the gun is Remember not everyone is looking for the "fastest method". Some people are looking for the easiest/least PAINFUL way to do it. Also some people belive there gun is more stable in smaller vertical racks (think winter range at the fort) closed and staged like a rifle

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Please let me point out one very important thing... I DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE ROC.. I certainly support them, but since my retirement I now have regained the right to have a public opinion of my own. All ROC members must by the nature of things support the collective decision of the ROC. I do believe that there was a major screw up when the Question was posed, and this left the ROC and the WB with a MESS. JMO

 

Snakebite

I apologize if you thought I was implying I thought you where speaking for the ROC. It was not my intent. I was simply answering your question as to what the big deal is. For shooters to have something explained as leagel and practice it for months, then have a (possible) change contradicting that understanding this close to EOT is a major deal

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I apologize if you thought I was implying I thought you where speaking for the ROC. It was not my intent. I was simply answering your question as to what the big deal is. For shooters to have something explained as leagel and practice it for months, then have a (possible) change contradicting that understanding this close to EOT is a major deal

What have you been practicing? Closing your SG after clearing it?

 

Phantom

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Just put your long guns back 'open & empty', tuck them in tightly, pat them lovenly, say good bye,,,,, then haul ass to the next shooting position!!!! There, no problem and you will not have to deal with this here rule and will not have to sweet being penalized.

 

We're all in this for just the 'fun' right? Braggin rights, the trophies and such are just over rated!! Why it is worth every penny of the hundreds/thousands of dollars it takes to attend an annual and above match just to see and talk to our once a year pards. That should be reward enough. Oh yes, and enjoy a banquet with all and enjoy seeing the costuming contest.

 

 

Don't sweat this rule change because it isn't earned very often.

 

You see a closed action call about as often as,,,, a pistol reload..... or a vertical stage,,, or a stage ending with a rifle.

I see vertical staging at least 6 stages with vertical staging EVERY MONTH at multiple clubs The most important thing to rember is that just beachside it doesn't happen a lot in other areas.

 

Winter range uses VERTICAL STAGING

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What have you been practicing? Closing your SG after clearing it?

 

Phantom

For vertical staging ..... Yep. When I use a double and have to restage it with the butt on the ground (happens a lot in AZ) I close it. (Less bending over)

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I see vertical staging at least 6 stages with vertical staging EVERY MONTH at multiple clubs The most important thing to rember is that just beachside it doesn't happen a lot in other areas.

 

Winter range uses VERTICAL STAGING

There was one vertical rack at WR this year. Had to restage a rifle and pick up the SG from the rack. Therefore, no one closed there SXS to place it back on the rack. Have I ever told you how much I despise vertical staging? Vertical racks should just be called "sight breakers".

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There was one vertical rack at WR this year. Had to restage a rifle and pick up the SG from the rack. Therefore, no one closed there SXS to place it back on the rack. Have I ever told you how much I despise vertical staging? Vertical racks should just be called "sight breakers".

No broken sights if the rack is designed correctly.

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Only one post from Palewolf? Return to the "clarified" version of a couple of weeks ago and this all goes away. Removes any subjectivity from the call.

 

CR

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Did anybody besides me notice the date June 14, 2014 for the changes to the SHB and RO I

 

What's todays date?

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Did anybody besides me notice the date June 14, 2014 for the changes to the SHB and RO I

 

What's todays date?

 

JUNE 14 designates the MONTH & YEAR...not the day.

<_<

 

What month/year is THIS??

 

( I believe I can confidently post that answer as correct without debate )

 

:P

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