Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

You make the call - staged or dropped ammo


Hollifer A. Dollar

Recommended Posts

This happened at our match Saturday & the discussion continues.

 

Stage description reads "With shotgun, engage 4 knockdowns until down". Shooter retrieves shotgun with right hand, pulls 2 shells with left hand, but got them in an odd way. She placed them (not dropped, thrown or otherwise out of her control) on the staging table, then picked them up again after getting a better grip on them. One of the posse officers (scorekeeper) yells "NO NO NO don't pick them up!". She keeps the muzzle downrange, looks over at him & says "huh?" The RO says "you are good, go ahead", she loads them in the gun, shoots the first 2 knockdowns, then pulls 2 more & finishes the other 2. What is the call?

 

The scorekeeper hollered "NO NO NO" because he thought they would be dead rounds & has both seen & been called for the MSV & misses in past matches. The RO & spotter (me) both said "she STAGED them, she didn't drop them, so she was OK". I did some research today & found Item 24 in Appendix A of the RO1 manual, that says "Rounds safely 'placed' onto a prop from their original loading area are not considered “dropped” rounds as long as recovering those rounds does not create loss of muzzle control”. The rounds were never out of her control & muzzle direction was maintained safely.

 

An experienced RO on the other posse said the scorekeeper would have been correct if the stage directions said "loading from the body" because those staged shells didn't come from the body. The way that I interpret the rule, that is covered, because the body is the original loading area.

 

For what it's worth, the RO called no penalty for staging the ammo & offered a reshoot for the interference, which she declined.

 

Holler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

 

An experienced RO on the other posse said the scorekeeper would have been correct if the stage directions said "loading from the body" because those staged shells didn't come from the body. The way that I interpret the rule, that is covered, because the body is the original loading area.

...

Hi Hollifer,

 

As Dawg wrote, no call and reshoot if desired.

 

That "experienced RO" is not correct. The coming from the body refers to how they are carried to the line. The event you describe has exact rules covering the situation. See the "dropped shell" rule.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Backing up the Dawg and others: another+. The (active) RO knew what to do and did it correctly.

 

BTW, scorekeeper should not even be advising the shooter what to do. Unless it is a severe safety issue that no one else is acting on, the scorekeeper is not in a position to provide direction to the shooter.

 

Good luck, GJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No Call but No Reshoot..........the scorekeeper is not a spotter and has NO voice in the matter and is not considered improper coaching. Scorekeeper should apologize to the shooter for slowing them down

 

Picking up the placed shells was just fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Backing up the Dawg and others: another+. The (active) RO knew what to do and did it correctly.

 

BTW, scorekeeper should not even be advising the shooter what to do. Unless it is a severe safety issue that no one else is acting on, the scorekeeper is not in a position to provide direction to the shooter.

 

Good luck, GJ

The scorekeeper was trying to prevent the shooter getting an MSV & misses. The road to hell is paved with good intentions in that case.

 

Holler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A good question has been brought up. When is a shooter entitled to a reshoot for interference. When the TO does it? When the spotters do it? When the scorekeeper does it? When a posse member does it? A spectator?

 

Fillmore

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No Call but No Reshoot..........the scorekeeper is not a spotter and has NO voice in the matter and is not considered improper coaching. Scorekeeper should apologize to the shooter for slowing them down

 

Picking up the placed shells was just fine.

The scorekeeper is a recognized range officer.......reshoot is available.....

 

RO1 page 7

 

All match positions described below are Range Officers.

 

listed on page 9

 

7. Score Keeper

 

 

Page 22 concerning reshoots.......

 

At all SASS annual club, state, Regional, National, and World Championship matches, no reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes down range as determined by the Chief Range Officer and the Match Director, except for:

• Prop or match equipment failure

• A Range Officer impeding the progress of the shooter

• Timer failure or unrecorded time

 

Score Keeper = Ranger Officer = re-shoot if they interfere with the shooter :)

 

Stan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi again,

 

This is to those of you who would not offer a reshoot based on the "peanut gallery" (anyone other than the TO) yelling at the shooter.

 

Are you sure that a hard of hearing, you know the folks you have to tap on the shoulder at the beep, would know who is yelling at them? If you would give one of them a break, I think it is best to give that same break to all. My husband keeps telling me I am deaf... Anyway, my point is that a shooter, in deep concentration, would have a difficult time differentiating voices or where they came from while shooting.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will whoever isn't "Hard of hearing" with their ear plugs firmly in place please raise your hand if you can hear me?

 

This is a grey area that upsets me....so whut? Well, I''ll tell you: The shooter HOPEFULLY has their back to the gallery; earplugs jammed in their head and hears NO NO NO... or MOVE MOVE MOVE from WHO? The spotters? The scorekeeper? The TO? WHO?

 

And the rule is that it's not improper coaching if 8 cowboys in the gallery are yelling their heads off. That's B********T.... it's up to the PM to instruct all except the RANGE/LINE OFFICERS to keep the intentions to themselves. If they don't then they put the shooter in jeopardy.

 

Reshoot.... No call.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No call. Offer reshoot.

 

But.

 

Also might want to talk to the shooter about KEEP GOING.

Don't stop THINKING you are going to get a reshoot.

Because that reshoot won't always come when you think it should.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No reshoot for the peanut gallery, Yes reshoot for ANY RANGE Officer interference. An sometimes as a RO you have to instruct the posse to leave the coaching up to the RO.

BT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I seem to recall a conversation about whether or not a person could receive a reshoot if the person "interfering" was not an RO, aka the Peanut Gallery. IIRC (heavy on the IIRC), it was decided that if the Peanut Gallery was doing the "interfering," there was no reshoot. The logic being that if you allowed the Peanut Gallery to "interfere," a buddy could, after witnessing their pard have a trainwreck, "interfere" and get them a reshoot.

 

Now, am I on board with that logic? I don't like it. My personal opinion is if you have someone intentionally interfering, then call a spade a spade. That's cheating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I seem to recall a conversation about whether or not a person could receive a reshoot if the person "interfering" was not an RO, aka the Peanut Gallery. IIRC (heavy on the IIRC), it was decided that if the Peanut Gallery was doing the "interfering," there was no reshoot. The logic being that if you allowed the Peanut Gallery to "interfere," a buddy could, after witnessing their pard have a trainwreck, "interfere" and get them a reshoot.

 

Now, am I on board with that logic? I don't like it. My personal opinion is if you have someone intentionally interfering, then call a spade a spade. That's cheating.

 

 

I can also see that point.

And not all places would give a reshoot for this. Some will, some may not.

 

That is why I would say to talk with the shooter about FINISHING the stage and keep going unless

the RO tells you to STOP.

 

Try and teach yourself to keep going with as little time lost as possible. Worry about reshoot AFTER you got a time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Buck, I agree and I saw something like this happen once----The shooter had a good and CLEAN match going on and on Stage 9 had a miss, the RO (his buddy) told him he had left a round in his rifle (he had not) when the shooter put the rifle down the second time the RO stepped right in front of him blocking his way to the next shooting position---He was given a reshoot and Guess what?? NO MISS! Couldn't prove it was intentional of course but it was pretty obvious to anyone on the posse.

I DO have a question though---I have always been told by those with more experience than me, that the rulebook says PROPER COACHING is not grounds for a reshoot--and NEITHER IS IMPROPER COACHING.(I find no reference to IMPROPER COACHING). That it is ultimately the shooters responsibility to know and shoot the stage properly. My though is that if the TO tells you to do something and it is WRONG then that penalty should be on the TO and the shooter should get a reshoot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stan and others

 

I see your point........so if a shooter receives or thinks they received improper coaching from anybody they are entitled to a reshoot?

NO......improper coaching from a RANGE OFFICER only......If you are not aware of who the recognized RANGE OFFICERS are then a quick review of the RO1 is suggested.....

 

Stan who is pretty sure Wyatt is egging me on with an ulterior motive :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Buck, I agree and I saw something like this happen once----The shooter had a good and CLEAN match going on and on Stage 9 had a miss, the RO (his buddy) told him he had left a round in his rifle (he had not) when the shooter put the rifle down the second time the RO stepped right in front of him blocking his way to the next shooting position---He was given a reshoot and Guess what?? NO MISS! Couldn't prove it was intentional of course but it was pretty obvious to anyone on the posse.

I DO have a question though---I have always been told by those with more experience than me, that the rulebook says PROPER COACHING is not grounds for a reshoot--and NEITHER IS IMPROPER COACHING.(I find no reference to IMPROPER COACHING). That it is ultimately the shooters responsibility to know and shoot the stage properly. My though is that if the TO tells you to do something and it is WRONG then that penalty should be on the TO and the shooter should get a reshoot.

He should actually be OFFERED a re-shoot. The shooter does not have to take the offer.

You are correct. PROPER coaching is not grounds for a re-shoot. There is no reference to IMPROPER COACHING. (If there is any logic left in this world) If proper coaching not being grounds for a re-shoot, then is would stand to reason that Improper coaching would be grounds for a re-shoot.

An extreme example of this would be if a shooter were required to shoot 2 shotgun from one location and then move to another location for more shotgun targets.... The shooter shoots his first two shots and then loads a third round in the gun and closes it while the TO is telling him to move. If the shooter follows the TO's coaching while that gun is loaded, the shooter earns a Stage DQ (And no reshoot should be offered).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He should actually be OFFERED a re-shoot. The shooter does not have to take the offer.

You are correct. PROPER coaching is not grounds for a re-shoot. There is no reference to IMPROPER COACHING. (If there is any logic left in this world) If proper coaching not being grounds for a re-shoot, then is would stand to reason that Improper coaching would be grounds for a re-shoot.

An extreme example of this would be if a shooter were required to shoot 2 shotgun from one location and then move to another location for more shotgun targets.... The shooter shoots his first two shots and then loads a third round in the gun and closes it while the TO is telling him to move. If the shooter follows the TO's coaching while that gun is loaded, the shooter earns a Stage DQ (And no reshoot should be offered).

As has been discused numerous times, the unsafe act committed, even by following the orders of the TO, are still unsafe and on the head of the offender.

The shooter MUST know and follow the safety rules. I would not expect to be offered a restart/reshoot if I, in following the TO's coaching, committed this error, nor would I take it if offered and explain the TO did not tell me to break the rule, regarding moving with the shotgun closed on a live round, the TO coached me to move to the proper position, the rule breaking I did all by myself.

 

To answer the OP,no call and reshoot/restart offered, the Score Keeper is a SASS listed Range Officer and the NO, NO, NO was NOT Proper Coaching or No Coaching At All.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is why I would say to talk with the shooter about FINISHING the stage and keep going unless

the RO tells you to STOP.

 

Which brings us back to Brother King's comment about not always being able to tell exactly who is telling you to stop. I'm not at all saying I disagree with you, just pointing out that it's not an exact science so, more often than not, I'd offer a reshoot in a situation like the OP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spotters, score keepers and peanut gallery should call out only in an emergency situation. In the OP, the shooter never lost control of the ammo and was perfectly legal. ONLY the RO should give instructions except in an emergency situation. Like in a situation that would call for a CEASE FIRE, or one of where there was immediate danger.

 

Lafitte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I seem to recall a conversation about whether or not a person could receive a reshoot if the person "interfering" was not an RO, aka the Peanut Gallery. IIRC (heavy on the IIRC), it was decided that if the Peanut Gallery was doing the "interfering," there was no reshoot. The logic being that if you allowed the Peanut Gallery to "interfere," a buddy could, after witnessing their pard have a trainwreck, "interfere" and get them a reshoot.

 

Now, am I on board with that logic? I don't like it. My personal opinion is if you have someone intentionally interfering, then call a spade a spade. That's cheating.

 

 

I have witnessed an RO interfer with his buddy shooter after the Peanut Gallery hollered about a safety issue that could be corrected before next gun at a State or above match. Peanut Gallery was right, RO wasn't. Reshoot taken by buddy, much better score. couldn't prove it was intenional or cheating, but good buddies shouldn't RO for their good buddies, at big matches,,,, or spot either.... just like spouses shouldn't RO/Score for family members.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NO......improper coaching from a RANGE OFFICER only......If you are not aware of who the recognized RANGE OFFICERS are then a quick review of the RO1 is suggested.....

 

Stan who is pretty sure Wyatt is egging me on with an ulterior motive :)

 

Hmmmmmm.........Me!

 

Just didn't want you to leave out

 

9. Loading/Unloading Table Officers

 

They may have something to say improper..........some have been known to offer their two cents

 

They are part of the "firing line" right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As has been discused numerous times, the unsafe act committed, even by following the orders of the TO, are still unsafe and on the head of the offender.

 

Just for my clarification; in the OP's description, what unsafe act was committed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can also see that point.

And not all places would give a reshoot for this. Some will, some may not.

 

That is why I would say to talk with the shooter about FINISHING the stage and keep going unless

the RO tells you to STOP.

 

Try and teach yourself to keep going with as little time lost as possible. Worry about reshoot AFTER you got a time.

 

Al

 

To me, it doesn't matter who says or yells stop......you stop and stand still. Stop and cease fire is the ultimate command to immediately stop whatever you are doing with a firearm. While shooting, the shooter''s attention is (or should be) completely dedicated to the task at hand......he has no idea who yelled stop or why. It could be a condition out of sight of the shooter. If anyone says or yells stop......stop. It's only a game, a game played with real bullets and possible serious results. In the case of someone yelling stop, regardless of who it is, I think it should be a reshoot.

 

I realize that this was not the original question, just wanted to clarifiy the word STOP or CEASE FIRE.

 

Now back to the original thread.

 

CS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just for my clarification; in the OP's description, what unsafe act was committed?

No unsafe act in the OP, I was red lining the quote from AoH regarding the unsafe movement after the TO said to move.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He should actually be OFFERED a re-shoot. The shooter does not have to take the offer.

You are correct. PROPER coaching is not grounds for a re-shoot. There is no reference to IMPROPER COACHING. (If there is any logic left in this world) If proper coaching not being grounds for a re-shoot, then is would stand to reason that Improper coaching would be grounds for a re-shoot.

An extreme example of this would be if a shooter were required to shoot 2 shotgun from one location and then move to another location for more shotgun targets.... The shooter shoots his first two shots and then loads a third round in the gun and closes it while the TO is telling him to move. If the shooter follows the TO's coaching while that gun is loaded, the shooter earns a Stage DQ (And no reshoot should be offered).

 

I had almost exactly this situation happen to me, grabbed the shotgun, shoved in 2 shells, closed it & the RO says "You got to MOVE" so I did...SDQ'd myself on the spot. Yes it was improper coaching, but it was my responsibility to make the move to the correct postion safely. I dumped the shells, grabbed my rifle & went to the unloading table.

 

Holler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.