Shooter disagrees with their recorded time...

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

This event actually happened - but this question is NOT directed at or about any shooter or timer.

It is simply a question to learn from others that have experienced this same situation.

 

A shooter completes the stage.

The TO (for whatever reason) neglects to show the shooter their time OR call it out loud.

They show the time to the scorekeeper and it is recorded for the shooter.

 

The shooter clears their guns - returns them to their cart, refills their shotgun belt, gets a drink of water - blah, blah, blah, etc.

After a while, they proceed to the scorekeeper to view and sign off on their recorded score.

The score is (in their opinion) not accurate.

What do you do?

 

And are the options different if the number is just a little off from expected or a whole lot off of expected?

 

i.e. Fair to Middlin' Mike generally shoots 30 second flat stages and the time recorded is a 35?

or

Lightning Bolt Barry who generally shoots 15 second flat stages and his time is recorded as a 35?

Both shooters question the accuracy of their recorded score - What do you do?

 

OR does it fall on the shooter to verify their time on the timer and require their TO to call it out for all to hear and if THEY fail to request this - they live with whatever the result is?

 

The shooter could be wrong about their expectations of the stage - the timer could have bumped against something or picked up a shot from somewhere else between the shooter and the scorekeeper.

I am not looking to assign blame or criticize ANYONE.

Simply to determine the best course of action if this were to ever happen again.

 

 

[Anvil Al #59168]

Would have to talk with the TO that was on the timer first thing.

 

Good post.

 

Look forward to seeing what some of the answers will be.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

imho, TO didn't do his job of calling out time and didn't show it to shooter. reshoot. next time show the shooter his time and call it out for all to hear!

 

btw, I distain it when a TO turns his back on me after a stage and goes to the scorekeeper without calling out the time! I holler till they turn around and give me my time.

 

pb

[Cypress Sun]

At a big match, it is always best to show the the shooter the timer reading after the last shot. Doesn't always happen though. It really doesn't matter if it is a 5 second difference or a 15 second difference. Did the shooter sign the score sheet? If so, the shooter has the time recorded. If the shooter did not or refused to sign the score sheet, then a protest involving the match director could be involved.

 

The best preventative action is to show the shooter the time recorded and immediately announce the time to the scorekeeper. Many times the TO will poll the spotters before announcing the time. During this delay, many things can happen to affect the device used to record the time and alter the real time. As soon as the shooter has shot the last round, read the time off and show the shooter the time. Avoids all questions.......at least in that respect.

 

Good thread Creeker.

 

CS

 

Edit, First line should read, at any match.

[Tom Bullweed]

Most shooters are interested in their times as a matter of competition or a measure of self-improvement. They should not head to the unload table until they get their time. A small, but equally enthusiastic, group of shooters are just having fun and shrug their shoulders at any mention of their time. The TO should assume that every shooters is in the first group.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Would have to talk with the TO that was on the timer first thing.

 

Good post.

 

Look forward to seeing what some of the answers will be.

Yeah, me too. If I was the PM I would ask the TO if he had any reason to question the timer's reliability and I would ask the scorekeeper whether they were shown the time or merely told the time. I would also remind the TO that he is supposed to call the time out clear and loud.

[Captain Bill Burt]

imho, TO didn't do his job of calling out time and didn't show it to shooter. reshoot. next time show the shooter his time and call it out for all to hear!

 

btw, I distain it when a TO turns his back on me after a stage and goes to the scorekeeper without calling out the time! I holler till they turn around and give me my time.

 

pb

I feel the same way, I want to know the time, even though I'll probably have forgotten it by the time I get to my cart.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I fully understand that the shooter "Should" see his time or request his time at the line.

I fully understand that the TO "Should" show the timer to the shooter and call the time out for everyone to hear.

 

But...

If these things did not happen AND the shooter is in disagreement with the time recorded (and being in disagreement, does not sign the scorebook) - what do we do THEN?

[Dutch Coroner]

I am very careful to announce the time, loudly,and show the time to the score keeper after every shooter. I would not want this to happen to me.

 

I agree with the others that the TO is not doing a complete job if they don't announce the time.

 

I'm with Purdy Boy, reshoot with a different TO and make sure the original TO has learned their lesson. Especially, since this is not a monthly (we don't sign off on monthly scores around here).

[Captain Bill Burt]

You've given us a tough nut to crack Creeker (these are the most fun IMHO). The TO had an obligation, which he failed to live up to and the shooter had a right which he failed to exercise. As a TO, if I had any doubt about the validity of the time I would offer a reshoot. As a PM it would depend on my confidence in the TO and what the scorekeeper said about the promptness of communication and whether they were shown the timer. I look forward to hearing what PWB says!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

The TO had an obligation, which he failed to live up to and the shooter had a right which he failed to exercise.

 

AND if we offer a reshoot for these "failures"

 

How do we prevent "some" from abusing the system?

i.e.

"Oh lucky me, the TO forgot to show me the timer or call my time out and I KNOW I had 4 misses. Now I just have to question my time and I'll get another run at that stage"

 

Once again - while the situation in the OP did happen - both the shooter and timer in that circumstance are cowboys above reproach.

and this question DOES NOT reflect upon them.

I just want to be better prepared for the next time.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

RO1 Manual page8

Timer Operator Subsection J.

 

J) Once the stage begins, the Timer Operator stays within arm’s length of the competitor
until the stage is finished. The Timer Operator then immediately announces the stage
time to the shooter. Only after revolvers are holstered and long guns are action
opened, muzzles pointed in a safe direction, and the shooter is heading towards the
unloading table does the Timer Operator, declare “Range is Clear” and conveys the
time to the Score Keeper in a loud, clear voice.

I don't see the word SHOULD.

So the TO in the OP apparently failed to do so TWICE.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I think we are opening the door to abuse in this case. I think that is one reason why it is important for the TO to call out the time, AND for the shooter to verify it before they leave the stage. One option would be to state that in this scenario misses carry forward, or that if the shooter fails to ask for his time before leaving the stage he can't challenge it. I think that anyone who takes TOing seriously wouldn't make this mistake twice.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Since the TO 'failed' in his duties.

Why wouldn't a re-shoot be offered?

LG

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

AND if we offer a reshoot for these "failures"

 

How do we prevent "some" from abusing the system?

i.e.

"Oh lucky me, the TO forgot to show me the timer or call my time out and I KNOW I had 4 misses. Now I just have to question my time and I'll get another run at that stage"

 

Once again - while this situation in the OP did happen - both the shooter and timer are cowboys above reproach.

I just want to be better prepared for the next time.

Well Creeker, I understand the issue with possible abuse, but I would say 99.9% would never do that, at least the people I have met, thats pretty much the same issue I heard when the idea came up for getting rid of the penalty for empty brass. I just don't think people would abuse it.

 

KK

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

RO1 Manual page8

Timer Operator Subsection J.

 

J) Once the stage begins, the Timer Operator stays within arm’s length of the competitor

until the stage is finished. The Timer Operator then immediately announces the stage

time to the shooter. Only after revolvers are holstered and long guns are action

opened, muzzles pointed in a safe direction, and the shooter is heading towards the

unloading table does the Timer Operator, declare “Range is Clear” and conveys the

time to the Score Keeper in a loud, clear voice.

 

I don't see the word SHOULD.

So the TO in the OP apparently failed to do so TWICE.

As soon as tha time records I say it two different ways (30.56 IE thirty fifty six and Three zero point five six, plus show it to tha scorekeeper) If tha shooter hangs roun I'll show it to him, I agree wid tha rule book. I hate a secret. It cast doubt.

 

 

RRR

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I had to learn the hard way. I was timing a Cowboy. After the shooting string, I turned around without looking and the timer hit the clipboard of the score keeper. It added a bunch of time to the stage. We started pushing buttons but were not able to figure out the correct time. That Cowboy got my apologies and a reshoot. I learned to call out the time as soon as the shooting is done. Usually several times to make sure the score keeper gets it right. Then I poll the spotters. If the shooter wants to see the timer, I'll be glad to show it to them but I don't normally get the request. If the scorekeeper is someone new at it, I'll walk over and make sure they write down the correct time next to the correct name.

 

I think it has to be handled on a case by case basis. The benefit of the doubt needs to go to the shooter if there's cause to question.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Well Creeker, I understand the issue with possible abuse, but I would say 99.9% would never do that, at least the people I have met, thats pretty much the same issue I heard when the idea came up for getting rid of the penalty for empty brass. I just don't think people would abuse it.

 

KK

LOL, you're a more trusting soul than I am KK. I've seen shooters challenge misses that all three spotters agreed on. I've also seen shooters challenge Ps claiming the PM didn't read the stage right when every other person on the posse understood perfectly well what they were supposed to do. A minority to be sure, but the difference between first and second in a big match is a minority as well.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

As it is a posse malfunction, a reshoot is in order.

And the misses to not carry forward only safety issues do.

 

It may also be time for this TO to sit a spell and ultimately take RO1 and RO2 refresher classes before he pulls TO duties.

[Russ T. Sites]

I fully understand that the shooter "Should" see his time or request his time at the line.

I fully understand that the TO "Should" show the timer to the shooter and call the time out for everyone to hear.

 

But...

If these things did not happen AND the shooter is in disagreement with the time recorded (and being in disagreement, does not sign the scorebook) - what do we do THEN?

If there's a question that the shooter didn't hear the time and it may have been in error, reshoot

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

If the shooter is so interested in his/her time, they should LISTEN for the time to be called. If they don't hear it they should ask about the time BEFORE going to the unloading table. Not 5 or 10 minutes later!! Don't try to blame everything on the TO!!

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

Lafitte

[Buffalo Bill Mathewson, 37826]

Creeker, thanks for the post it has reminded me I need to do better as a TO.

[Madd Mike #8595]

imho, TO didn't do his job of calling out time and didn't show it to shooter. reshoot. next time show the shooter his time and call it out for all to hear!

 

btw, I distain it when a TO turns his back on me after a stage and goes to the scorekeeper without calling out the time! I holler till they turn around and give me my time.

 

pb

yup

I agree, if a timer operator fails to show or say the time, the shooter should - right then and there

request that important information

 

before taking a union break

 

PS

we are not always blessed with perfect timer operators

there-fore shooters should accept some responsibility as well

just ask the timer for the info, before you go to the unloading table

 

re-shoot is in order, no big deal unless a shooter becomes known for such behavior

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Reshoot should be offered. Abuse could only take place if a TO continually neglected to call out time & show shooter the timer. Might be a better lesson here for the TO than the shooter.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Couple of things:

 

First, some folks, myself included, really HATE to reshoot a stage so "making" them can also set them off. But we had a case, some years ago, when the shooter did not agree with the time. After some discussion we offered him a reshoot, on which he picked up a miss. His original stage was clean. Now he's mad because he has roughly the same time AND a miss. Now he wants his original time back. Oh brother.

 

There is no good fix for this, but ultimately we put the decision in the hands of the shooter. Offer the reshoot to the shooter but they live with the result because there is no going back once the reshoot is complete. It's up to them at that point.

 

On a side note, what Ray said is a good habit to get into. Sante Fe River Stan got me into kind of singing the time immediately after the command "muzzles up", you will hear "Time is Sixteen-thirty-six, One-Six-Three-Six.....Spotters Say "Clean"". This is done loudly even if the time keeper is standing right next to me.

[Doc Shapiro]

IMO, it depends on the situation. Three possibilities:

 

- If the shooter got a better time than expected, offer to let him shoot it again. If he's within 2 seconds and 2 misses, original score stands. Actually saw this happen at a match once. The folks scoring couldn't believe the time and the shooter was challenged. As I recall, he actually improved upon the original time. The shooter handled it exceptionally well. As I recall, he was thrilled with the opportunity to get to shoot some more.

 

- If the shooter got a worse time than expected, and is out of the norm for him, then there could be a legitimate issue with bumping the timer or some such. A reshoot is in order. Safety penalties carry over, but not misses or procedurals.

 

- If the shooter had a poor run and is using this as an excuse to get a reshoot, have him file a formal protest with the MD and quietly tell the MD your side. Then the MD can decide if this gets an SOG for unsportsman like conduct, or if he'll just let him reshoot.

[Krazy Kajun]

I agree with DiD about calling out the time in a loud enought voice so all can hear. I have recently got into the habit of showing the scorekeeper the timer in additional to calling out the time just to make sure we all have seen the same thing.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

IMO, it depends on the situation. Three possibilities:

 

- If the shooter got a better time than expected, offer to let him shoot it again. If he's within 2 seconds and 2 misses, original score stands. Actually saw this happen at a match once. The folks scoring couldn't believe the time and the shooter was challenged. As I recall, he actually improved upon the original time. The shooter handled it exceptionally well. As I recall, he was thrilled with the opportunity to get to shoot some more.

 

- If the shooter got a worse time than expected, and is out of the norm for him, then there could be a legitimate issue with bumping the timer or some such. A reshoot is in order. Safety penalties carry over, but not misses or procedurals.

 

- If the shooter had a poor run and is using this as an excuse to get a reshoot, have him file a formal protest with the MD and quietly tell the MD your side.

Then the MD can decide if this gets an SOG for unsportsman like conduct, or if he'll just let him reshoot.

There is no such violation/penalty combination in the rules.

[Iditarod Kid]

To tell the truth, I really do not care what times I get at a match. I try to shoot clean, but more importantly, HAVE FUN.

Just y own two cents.

See you down the trail......

[Captain Bill Burt]

To tell the truth, I really do not care what times I get at a match. I try to shoot clean, but more importantly, HAVE FUN.

Just y own two cents.

See you down the trail......

If you ever run the timer the person you're running it for may actually care about their time.

[Madd Mike #8595]

I sometimes wonder how many shooters that complain / blame timer operators

I sometimes wonder, how often they offer to be the timer operator

 

the shooter can ask the tired TO, hey, what was my time?

thanks

 

then head to the unloading table

pretty simple

 

if a timer operator never calls out the time, then volunteer to take over, or replace him with someone that will

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

Reshoot

[Dirt Merchant # 61422]

At the last shot I look at the time, verify shooter clear, call it out loud,show it to the shooter, tell shooter to retrieve guns, muzzles up and pole the spotters and call out the time again, then show it to the scorekeeper and verify by hearing them repeat it back to me. Takes 10-15 seconds, works like a charm

[Painted Filly]

At big shoot I normally will not operate the timer but I am usually the score keeper and what usually happens they show me the time and I repeat to them and see the time and get the confirmation. It is not always said directly to the shooter or shown to the shooter.

 

I don't think most people would abuse it if the reshoot was offered but you have to think, if you are clean do you really want to take the chance of not being clean again.

 

I dothinknthat you need to verify and sign right away not wait several minutes. Again I usually take the sheet over to the unloading table and get signed after they clear their guns and before they leave the table so is done right away.

 

Painted Filly

[McCandless]

When I RO, I poll the spotters, take their factors into the scoring and give the final time plus the number of misses and Procedurals, Minor Safeteies and what not OUT LOUD to the shooter, and to the scorekeeper.

 

I hate it when it seems like a state secret... Just don't move off the line until you get the answer...askimg "what's my score!!

 

My base assumption is that we are playing among outr cowboy pards, and they will always do what's right. ehehehehehehehehehehe!!!

 

I'll be glad to RO more in the monthly matches... great time to learn by doing!