Shooter disagrees with their recorded time...

[Captain Bill Burt]

You like to argue with folks don't you Blastmaster? On that other thread about winning and shooting clean you deliberately misinterpreted what I said so you could argue with me, now here you deliberately misinterpret Stan so you can make a snide remark. He didn't say he wanted every call cleared through him, he said he wanted to know before someone got a reshoot.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Guy's "must" might not be the right word he should have used......But when the shooter finishes the stage they are right there with you (or should be) 9 times out of 10 they will look at you when finished.

 

I always take that opportunity to casually show them the timer as I call out the time. If they are competitive they usually are attentive and are the ones more than likely that will dispute a time so that can avoid an issue. If they walk away or don't look at me......They aren’t that interested and probably won’t dispute the time either way. I won’t chase those folks down but simply call out the time and press on.

+1. I TO/PM a great deal and perhaps one of my biggest flaws is not showing time to competitor, however I am loud when I call it out and may repeat several times while heading tothen scorekeeper for them to verify. As has been said, those that really want to see the timer themselves, pause at line to see rather than quickly go to ULT.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Again,

 

Another way, which is recommended, to ensure the shooter gets a fair shake is for the score keeper to ask the TO to show the timer and for the TO to check what the score keeper wrote. This does not negate the need for the TO to call out the time, in a loud voice, immediately after the last shot.

 

Immediately yelling the time of the last shot is critical at some ranges with two stages on a berm where the timer can advance from another posse's gunshot. I have seen this happen many times without issue as more than one person heard the time, including the shooter.

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

[Shooting Bull]

There is a rule 5J in ROI that states the TO to announce the time to shooter upon completion.

 

I asked for clarification on this earlier and still haven't gotten any. Is that in fact a rule? If so, what's the penalty for breaking it?

[Anvil Al #59168]

You like to argue with folks don't you Blastmaster? On that other thread about winning and shooting clean you deliberately misinterpreted what I said so you could argue with me, now here you deliberately misinterpret Stan so you can make a snide remark. He didn't say he wanted every call cleared through him, he said he wanted to know before someone got a reshoot.

 

 

+1

 

Have been to MANY matches where reshoots had to be cleared through MD.

 

In fact. It is not a bad idea. As some will give a reshoot for dang near anything and other won't. Even if it should not be.

[Blastmaster]

 

You like to argue with folks don't you Blastmaster? On that other thread about winning and shooting clean you deliberately misinterpreted what I said so you could argue with me, now here you deliberately misinterpret Stan so you can make a snide remark. He didn't say he wanted every call cleared through him, he said he wanted to know before someone got a reshoot. <_<

 

 

Not really arguing with SFR. He stated one of his pet peeves was for TO's to give reshoots w/o his knowledge, which tells me that TO has to clear the call with him (MD) before making the call. I just stated that it was within the MD power to do such and if there were any other pet peeves, to please make them known to PM/TO's.

 

FYI, I did not deliberately misinterpreted whatever you said.

[Captain Bill Burt]

   

 

Not really arguing with SFR. He stated one of his pet peeves was for TO's to give reshoots w/o his knowledge, which tells me that TO has to clear the call with him (MD) before making the call. I just stated that it was within the MD power to do such and if there were any other pet peeves, to please make them known to PM/TO's.

 

FYI, I did not deliberately misinterpreted whatever you said.

From the other thread:

 

I would rather do both too (shoot clean and win), but if I had to choose I would rather win.

 

 

At all/any cost?

 

I would rather win, when my competition is shooting their best.

 

if no competition (a rare monthly when no one shows up), then I would rather shoot clean.

[Blastmaster]

 

 

I asked for clarification on this earlier and still haven't gotten any. Is that in fact a rule? If so, what's the penalty for breaking it?

 

 

Good point PS. It is a "MATCH PROCEDURES AND TERMS" portion that 5J came from. I would think if it was a rule, then there would be a penalty associated with it if the 'rule' was violated. No one has come up with a written consequences in any of the books for not stating in a loud voice to the shooter his time after completion of the stage.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hey!

 

I'm "listening" and I'd really rather let the discussion flow. However, when folks start with the sarcasm and others have to defend themselves, the thread might need to be closed.

 

So, let's get back on track before it gets to that point.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

This is really too simple for 3 pages...so I'm adding...

 

Shot in my first IDPA shoot last weekend. The TO (or whatever they call 'em) called 43 seconds as he showed the timer to the score keeper. I said, "NO WAY"... 12 on 6 (2 sweeps 2xtap) with 1 mag change. He replied, "that's what it says" so I asked him to roll it back (which he didn't know how to do) and sure enough it showed 16 shots. The 12th shot was 11 seconds. But they had three stages running and the TO didn't take care to cover the mic. When covering the mic you also must take care not to bump the mic.

 

Too often I have been guilty of looking at the time and then turning to find the spotters for their call before I show/tell the shooter. It really doesn't take anymore time to show/tell the shooter; give them a "Muzzles up to the unloading table" and THEN find the spotters/ scorekeeper and announce the time again.

 

Clearly there is no "rule" per se, but there IS a correct and recommended procedure. This has been a good thread to highlight the need for it.

[Madd Mike #8595]

I honestly believe that it is the responsibility that both the timer operator AND the shooter pay attention to the time right after the last shot

 

not after a drink of water etc.

 

unless of course, the shooter is just there for fun, and does not care if an error might accoure once in a blue moon

 

in other words, it should not always fall upon the timer only

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

The call that was made by the MD (me) was to offer a reshoot - stipulating that the reshoot was at the shooters risk.

(if they crash and burn on the reshoot - too bad)

It appears that decision was correct.

 

In the future, Eldorado Cowboys/ Desert Desperados matches will encourage the shooter to request a viewing of their time before leaving the firing line.

If the shooter is not offered this viewing by the TO and if, following that omission, the shooter does not request to see their time - The recorded time will stand and no reshoot will be offered.

 

This will place the operational weight on the TO to follow procedure, but will not absolve the shooter from taking responsibility for the accuracy of their own scores immediately at the conclusion of the stage.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I like that call Creeker, for what it's worth.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I like that call Creeker, for what it's worth.

 

Me, too.

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

Very good conclusion.

[Hoss]

That'l work! Fair to everbody.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Believe it or not, I agree with Creeker...

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

[Shooting Bull]

Believe it or not, I agree with Creeker...

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah.................it was my idea.

 

 

(Not really but it's fun poking fun at our beloved Match Director. He had it far too easy this weekend. We need to pick on him a bit. )

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.................it was my idea.

 

 

(Not really but it's fun poking fun at our beloved Match Director. He had it far too easy this weekend. We need to pick on him a bit. )

 

 

I certainly agree with that!

[Blastmaster]

Good job Creeker!!

 

Especially making it a club policy for future events.

 

Would be a good idea of all clubs to adopt!

 

Blastmaster

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Far too easy? Thanks alot.

[Madd Mike #8595]

The call that was made by the MD (me) was to offer a reshoot - stipulating that the reshoot was at the shooters risk.

(if they crash and burn on the reshoot - too bad)

It appears that decision was correct.

 

In the future, Eldorado Cowboys/ Desert Desperados matches will encourage the shooter to request a viewing of their time before leaving the firing line.

If the shooter is not offered this viewing by the TO and if, following that omission, the shooter does not request to see their time - The recorded time will stand and no reshoot will be offered.

 

This will place the operational weight on the TO to follow procedure, but will not absolve the shooter from taking responsibility for the accuracy of their own scores immediately at the conclusion of the stage.

good call

all clubs should consider the same

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

So the next shoot I go to, I will not pick up my guns after shooting, but wait for the TO to tell me my time. If I do not hear it. I will turn to the TO while he is trying to get the brass picked up, targets reset and giving the time to the score keeper and keep asking the TO for my time and to look at the timer digital readout. Only after I have my time will I pick up my guns and go to the unloading table. Once I get to the unloading table, I will lay my four guns there and go to the score keeper and make certain my time was properly recorded and sign the score sheet if needed. Once I am certian the correct time was recorded, then and only then do I go back to the unloading table and clear all my guns. This should really speed up a meatch. Or, are we overthinking this issue?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

So the next shoot I go to, I will not pick up my guns after shooting, but wait for the TO to tell me my time. If I do not hear it. I will turn to the TO while he is trying to get the brass picked up, targets reset and giving the time to the score keeper and keep asking the TO for my time and to look at the timer digital readout. Only after I have my time will I pick up my guns and go to the unloading table. Once I get to the unloading table, I will lay my four guns there and go to the score keeper and make certain my time was properly recorded and sign the score sheet if needed. Once I am certian the correct time was recorded, then and only then do I go back to the unloading table and clear all my guns. This should really speed up a meatch. Or, are we overthinking this issue?

GCK, I know you are being a teensy bit facetious, but...

The TO is standing RIGHT there next to you when the stage ends.

The TO showing the timer to you "should" be happening already - If he fails to do so, your asking him to stop and show you the timer should not add more than 10 seconds to the time the shooter spends on the stage.

Assuming this request had to be made by every single shooter on the posse - which it obviously would not, but if it did

10 seconds x 16 posse members is 160 added seconds (2 minutes, 40 seconds)

10 seconds x 21 posse members is 210 seconds (3 minutes, 30 seconds)

I guarantee I wasted more than 3 minutes, 30 seconds discussing, analyzing and debating over what to do for the shooter in my circumstance.

 

As for the shooter taking more time at the UNloading table? I don't believe it affects the match that much - so (imo) that is a moot point.

So are we overthinking it? Maybe.

But I like to think that, as much as possible, things happen the same way for every shooter.

This is just one more step to attempt to ensure that consistent experience happens.

[Brasspounder]

Yup...Apparently multiple screwups were involved.

 

Reshoot.

 

It aint the end of the world.

 

If it is some hotshot that has 0.001 seconds difference in winning some huge match,

the hell with it, crap happens.

 

Cowboy up. Give 'em a reshoot, see if they can do better.

 

Bp

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

So the next shoot I go to, I will not pick up my guns after shooting, but wait for the TO to tell me my time. If I do not hear it. I will turn to the TO while he is trying to get the brass picked up, targets reset and giving the time to the score keeper and keep asking the TO for my time and to look at the timer digital readout. Only after I have my time will I pick up my guns and go to the unloading table. Once I get to the unloading table, I will lay my four guns there and go to the score keeper and make certain my time was properly recorded and sign the score sheet if needed. Once I am certian the correct time was recorded, then and only then do I go back to the unloading table and clear all my guns. This should really speed up a meatch. Or, are we overthinking this issue?

No. YOU are over thinking it.

[Flying W Ramrod]

First, it is not required to SHOW the time. Just announce in a loud clear voice.

Second, once you clear the unloading table, you can look over the scorekeepers shoulder to see your time. If it isn't what you heard, ask about it. At Winter Range you sign the book before moving to the next stage. If it works for them, and it does, it should work everywhere.

Third, if you're ever on my posse or within three stages of my posse, you know what the shooter shot. I was told this past weekend, the California State Match, that I was heard doing the stage reading by a shooter in the outhouse on the other side of the range

[Madd Mike #8595]

So the next shoot I go to, I will not pick up my guns after shooting, but wait for the TO to tell me my time. If I do not hear it. I will turn to the TO while he is trying to get the brass picked up, targets reset and giving the time to the score keeper and keep asking the TO for my time and to look at the timer digital readout. Only after I have my time will I pick up my guns and go to the unloading table. Once I get to the unloading table, I will lay my four guns there and go to the score keeper and make certain my time was properly recorded and sign the score sheet if needed. Once I am certian the correct time was recorded, then and only then do I go back to the unloading table and clear all my guns. This should really speed up a meatch. Or, are we overthinking this issue?

no

if the timer operator does NOT perform to your personal expectations, then you do what you said

 

point is that

timer operators are shooters too, everything cant become their fault when monday quarterbacking applies

geeeese

[Madd Mike #8595]

GCK, I know you are being a teensy bit facetious, but...

The TO is standing RIGHT there next to you when the stage ends.

The TO showing the timer to you "should" be happening already - If he fails to do so, your asking him to stop and show you the timer should not add more than 10 seconds to the time the shooter spends on the stage.

Assuming this request had to be made by every single shooter on the posse - which it obviously would not, but if it did

10 seconds x 16 posse members is 160 added seconds (2 minutes, 40 seconds)

10 seconds x 21 posse members is 210 seconds (3 minutes, 30 seconds)

I guarantee I wasted more than 3 minutes, 30 seconds discussing, analyzing and debating over what to do for the shooter in my circumstance.

 

As for the shooter taking more time at the UNloading table? I don't believe it affects the match that much - so (imo) that is a moot point.

So are we overthinking it? Maybe.

But I like to think that, as much as possible, things happen the same way for every shooter.

This is just one more step to attempt to ensure that consistent experience happens.

yes, right onn mann

with all due respect to gold canyon kidd, there are several different levels to shooters and how they rate the importance of their scores

those that are there to win, ought to be a fair part of the end result, (no bullying) and not just blame others

that has been my point from the beginning

[Ace_of_Hearts]

After three pages of postings and no one has blamed the score keeper for writing down the time wrong I am surprised.

Let's see

The electronic timer could have picked up extra noise or been tapped by something.

The TO could have read the time incorrectly.

The TO could have transposed some numbers on the readout

The score keeper could have heard the time wrong

The score keeper could have transposed some numbers

The TO didn't look at the numbers the score keeper wrote down (Yes they should do that)

And the shooter didn't check that it was all done correctly.

What we need is another human in the loop to screw things up some more.

 

Anyone who wants to add to this list feel free.

 

In case anyone hasn't read this and they run the timer, it is good suggested reading.

 

http://www.oowss.com/SASS%20Rules%20Docs/SASS%20TO%20Guidelines%20%28July%202010%29.pdf

[Madd Mike #8595]

After three pages of postings and no one has blamed the score keeper for writing down the time wrong I am surprised.

good point

if a person is obsorbed with their time

they really need to see that what they were tolt

is what is on paper

good point

brings the shooter as being a tadd bit more responsible

 

look folks

sass / cas is bout shooters

 

timers operators are shooters

posse leaders are shooters

match directers are shooters

data entry are shooters

 

room for error

 

shooters, if they realy care, sould become a part of that documations

even though no one wins the cadilac

 

if you wish to brag about your standings

be a part of making it happen

 

be a score keeper

be a timer operator

be a stage writer

be a waddie

be a match director, that will blow yer mind

what ya thought were friends???????????????????????/

be a part of the end results, besides, pay her fees and shoot, then perhaps complain later bout sumthin

[Krazy Kajun]

And all God's people said.....

 

AMEN.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

   

 

Not really arguing with SFR.

 

 

 

No you weren't arguing....you were being snide. "Every little hang-nail call".

 

I understand your point well enough, if the MD doesn't trust you enough to make a call, then you don't want to run the timer. BUT, the MD does have the right to make sure that reshoots are being handed out based on a justifiable reason. For the sake of consistency especially at bigger matches, sometimes you have to kick it upstairs.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

The call that was made by the MD (me) was to offer a reshoot - stipulating that the reshoot was at the shooters risk.

(if they crash and burn on the reshoot - too bad)

It appears that decision was correct.

 

In the future, Eldorado Cowboys/ Desert Desperados matches will encourage the shooter to request a viewing of their time before leaving the firing line.

If the shooter is not offered this viewing by the TO and if, following that omission, the shooter does not request to see their time - The recorded time will stand and no reshoot will be offered.

 

This will place the operational weight on the TO to follow procedure, but will not absolve the shooter from taking responsibility for the accuracy of their own scores immediately at the conclusion of the stage.

 

Howdy Creeker.

 

In reference to your 2nd paragraph, leave yourself some wiggle room. You could encounter a shooter that walks away from the firing line without requesting to see their time and if you have a standing 'concrete' rule that the recorded time will stand, you might end up with a 20 second timed stage for someone that normally shoots 27 second stages.

 

In other words, the timer could fail to pick up shots, etc. So you might want to consider leaving yourself some adjustment room. Just a thought.

 

 

..........Widder

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

No you weren't arguing....you were being snide. "Every little hang-nail call".

 

I understand your point well enough, if the MD doesn't trust you enough to make a call, then you don't want to run the timer. BUT, the MD does have the right to make sure that reshoots are being handed out based on a justifiable reason. For the sake of consistency especially at bigger matches, sometimes you have to kick it upstairs.

Ohhhhh you are SOOOOOO right!!!!!