Shooter disagrees with their recorded time...

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

imho, TO didn't do his job of calling out time and didn't show it to shooter. reshoot. next time show the shooter his time and call it out for all to hear!

 

btw, I distain it when a TO turns his back on me after a stage and goes to the scorekeeper without calling out the time! I holler till they turn around and give me my time.

 

pb

Every shooter, every time should be shown his time and the time called audibly as well. I generally stick the timer in the face of the shooter when he turns around after the last gun, then call it audibly, followed by "and the spotters say Clean" (or whatever). Then the scorekeeper is shown and I again recite what I said to the shooter. That way, if I hit the timer against something or it picks up an echo from a BP shotgun on the next stage, I have the verbal and visual memory, and the shooter has a verbal and visual memory, so together we can give the scorekeeper the "real" time.

 

Even Johnny "Just for fun" who TELLS ME "I don't care about my time" will hear and see it every time I run the stage, because it is his right and the right of everyone shooting against him for score to know the time is accurate.

[Red HayMaker]

In Annual Matches and above I say the score out loud to the shooter right after they have picked up their long guns and before they leave the line; poll the spotters and state that outloud; and then announce the time to the scorekeeper and state any penalties and then show the score keeper the time. The scorekeeper will repeat the score back with any penalties. In a monthly, I announce the score immediately, pole the spotters and show the score keeper the timer. Sometimes depending on the score keeper they will repeat everything back.

 

At a monthly I have been asked many times by the shooter why I am telling them the score. This sport would be so much easier if people would take the ROI course and read the Shooters HandBook and ROI Basic Course

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

I had to learn the hard way. I was timing a Cowboy. After the shooting string, I turned around without looking and the timer hit the clipboard of the score keeper. It added a bunch of time to the stage. We started pushing buttons but were not able to figure out the correct time. That Cowboy got my apologies and a reshoot. I learned to call out the time as soon as the shooting is done. Usually several times to make sure the score keeper gets it right. Then I poll the spotters. If the shooter wants to see the timer, I'll be glad to show it to them but I don't normally get the request. If the scorekeeper is someone new at it, I'll walk over and make sure they write down the correct time next to the correct name.

 

I think it has to be handled on a case by case basis. The benefit of the doubt needs to go to the shooter if there's cause to question.

its YOUR job to show them, not their job to ask. please make a habit of it for the good of all involved.

 

 

creeker, I would admonish the lousy match director.

[Griff]

While the TO certainly has the responsibility to ensure the shooter hears and sees their time... and that it accurately gets conveyed to the scorekeeper; the shooter is under a similar obligation, if they are concerned with their times. While we don't have shooters sign the scoresheet, it's available all thru the stage for them to verify they were scored properly... or to compare their time to their favorite competitor.

 

However, if you wait for 3, 4 or maybe 5 other shooters to complete the stage, you've lost the ability to review the actual times, splits and shot count for YOUR stage. Now you're relying on the imperfect memory of yourself, the TO, Spotters and Scorekeeper... the shooter bears a measure of ensuring their time is recorded correctly.

 

If the TO is getting tired, offer to find a replacement... it does happen... If you're the TO, cheerfully offer the reshoot, making sure the shooter understands the consequences of accepting a reshoot and ask someone else to have the honor of conducting it.

 

Why do we all jump to the conclusion that the TO is wholly at fault? I certainly didn't read that in the OP. IMO, BOTH parties bore some responsibility in the instance given. In the example given, were I the MD, I'd offer the reshoot, and admonish BOTH parties.

[Blastmaster]

ROI page 8, item 5-J) Once the stage begins, the Timer Operator stays within arm’s length of the competitor

until the stage is finished. The Timer Operator then immediately announces the stage

time to the shooter. Only after revolvers are holstered and long guns are action

opened, muzzles pointed in a safe direction, and the shooter is heading towards the

unloading table does the Timer Operator, declare “Range is Clear” and conveys the

time to the Score Keeper in a loud, clear voice.

A reshoot!! If in fact the TO didn't say a word about the time at the conclusion of the stage. TO didn't follow the rules.

It does show a lacking of character on shooters part if they formally protested the situation under the described circumstances, knowing the TO did show the time to the Scorekeeper and such. But that is for another thread.

[Korupt Karl]

I think as a TO I try to do it all right and one thing I do is call the time out loud. I don't always physically show the timer to the shooter as a lot of them are walking off the stage at the last shot.

 

I know that Cheyenne will stay until he sees it and that's fine....after I read the score I show it to the scorekeeper and then check the spotters. As a result of this post I think I'll be a better and much improved TO....

 

KK

[Cowboy Junky]

This shouldn't have happened but IF it did.......at a Monthly match......let em' re-shoot it.....Cowboy Karma will get em' eventually or people will see their true colors "if" they are taking advantage of the situation. If it's at a big match it shouldn't happen at all.......there are too many layers to prevent it. The TO, the score keeper, the shooter, or having to sign the book should catch it before the timer is cleared and could be reviewed.

 

As others have said Call it out loud, show it to the shooter, the score keeper and you won't have these issues. I make it a habit at every match....that way when I get to a big un' it's just what you do.

 

Last, whenever a shooter has a bad re-load or fumbles shells or does ANYTHING that can get them in that time warp where times seems to pile up those are the times when you really need to be clear ASAP.

[Doc Shapiro]

 

 

 

Then the MD can decide if this gets an SOG for unsportsman like conduct, or if he'll just let him reshoot.

There is no such violation/penalty combination in the rules.

 

Of course you're right. I was typing off the top of my head and didn't follow up with the rulebook as I should have. Unsportsmanlike Conduct or belligerant attitude is a MDQ.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

_{Hi Folks,}

 

_{Although I rarely place, I do like to hear my time. That way, I know when to do the "happy dance" or yelp for a clean stage with a time in the 30s.}

 

_{I have been shocked by which particular TOs fail to yell out the time after the shooter finishes a stage.}

 

_{I agree "reshoot."}

 

_Regards,

 

_{Just Allie Mo}

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

imho, TO didn't do his job of calling out time and didn't show it to shooter. reshoot. next time show the shooter his time and call it out for all to hear!

 

btw, I distain it when a TO turns his back on me after a stage and goes to the scorekeeper without calling out the time! I holler till they turn around and give me my time.

 

pb

+1 and one of my pet peeves. As a shooter, I'm standing there with long guns still in jeopardy for proper handling and having to chase down the TO for my time is just TO error. How hard is it to either 1) show the timer to the shooter or 2) call the time out to the shooter loud enough for him/her to hear it or 3) BOTH?

 

RESHOOT.... benefit to the shooter.

[Shooting Bull]

I'm not at all trying to start a fight here, just looking for clarification. The T.O. duties have been listed more than once in this thread, clearly stating that he's supposed to "call the time to the score keeper and the competitor in a loud clear voice." It would be nice for him to also show the shooter the score on the timer. What I'm not seeing is anywhere in the book(s) that those are rules that, if broken, affords the shooter a re-shoot.

 

Where does the shooter's responsibility begin? As anyone who's ever been on a posse with me, (Or probably two bays over) can attest, I'm not exactly soft spoke. When I holler out a time, it's LOUD. But what if the shooter doesn't hear me? Doesn't the shooter incurr some sort of responsibility?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

 

Where does the shooter's responsibility begin? As anyone who's ever been on a posse with me, (Or probably two bays over) can attest, I'm not exactly soft spoke. When I holler out a time, it's LOUD. But what if the shooter doesn't hear me? Doesn't the shooter incur some sort of responsibility?

That is why you, the TO, must SHOW the time to the shooter while he is still standing at the line, also. Some folks won't hear through their earplugs (and their adrenaline rush at the end of the stage.) Shooter can simply refuse to walk to the unloading table until satisfied. TO should cooperate with that, not yell at the shooter to "get moving." If the shooter does walk away to the table without a comment (like, "Let me lay down my guns, I have a problem with this, and would like to review the time"), then as a TO, I have to assume he has agreed with the time he has been told and been shown.

 

There ALWAYS is pressure to get on to the next shooter, but that of course, destroys the ability of the shooter to see a shot-by-shot review of the time. I say, when the shooter leaves the actual firing line without a "notice of disagreement", he has given up all hope of a complete play-back of the timer results. From that point, protests about the time become more of a matter of discussion from memory than a review of the facts. And the shooter has a much weaker case arguing faults in the memory of the TO, rather than both of them seeing the data played back on the timer.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Shooting Bull]

That is why you, the TO, must SHOW the time to the shooter while he is still standing at the line, also.

Good luck, GJ

 

Must show? I do hold the timer up for each of my shooters to see but, some are more concerned with getting to the unloading table. Do I have to track them down and force them to look at the timer?

 

Again, not trying to be disagreeable but, all I'm seeing in this thread is the TO being held responsible. I'm of the opinion that the shooter has to hold some of the blame on occasion. And I'm still unclear on exactly what constitutes a re-shoot under the scenario described in the OP.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I'm a little unclear on that as well Philly. I'm still hoping PWB will weigh in on that point.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I do hold the timer up for each of my shooters to see but, some are more concerned with getting to the unloading table. Do I have to track them down and force them to look at the timer?

 

Again, not trying to be disagreeable but, all I'm seeing in this thread is the TO being held responsible. I'm of the opinion that the shooter has to hold some of the blame on occasion. And I'm still unclear on exactly what constitutes a re-shoot under the scenario described in the OP.

Well, read my reply again and you will see what I believe the SHOOTER's responsibility is - if they want to contest the time, the SHOOTER must

1) take the time to hear and see the timer while they are at the last shooting position, and

2) they must ask the TO not to erase the time until they can review it together.

Then the shooter has a reasonable right to see the times played back. Or get a reshoot if the times are cleared, or were not recorded right (like an extra "shot" recorded at a 5 second delay between last shot and next to last shot times, when there was no such delay caused by the shooter).

 

If he says nothing, goes to the unloading table, then his cart, then comes back to ask to see the time - "Sorry, pard, we already are running the next shooter through the stage. Was there something else you wanted to discuss?"

 

That's how I do it, at the very least.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Hoss]

TO should annouce time loudly and offer it to the shooter. If shooter does not hear it, or take the initiative to ask, or at least indicate that he has questiuons but want to put his guns down, then its on him.

 

Good timer operators are hard to come by. I was fortunate at Texas State to have 2 very good ones, Brushy Creek Bill and Bent Barrel Betty. I shoot every month with Brishy, and he does it the same way every time. thats why its imoprtant to do things the right way at monthly matches, the TOs are ready for the big time!

[Madd Mike #8595]

let us cut to the chase (Get to the point - leaving out unnecessary preamble)

just exactly when did this shooter protest the time?

 

that is a fact that would be important to properly answer the question

other than "the timer operator sucked"

[Shooting Bull]

Well, read my reply again and you will see what I believe the SHOOTER's responsibility is - if they want to contest the time, the SHOOTER must

1) take the time to hear and see the timer while they are at the last shooting position, and

2) they must ask the TO not to erase the time until they can review it together.

Then the shooter has a reasonable right to see the times played back. Or get a reshoot if the times are cleared, or were not recorded right (like an extra "shot" recorded at a 5 second delay between last shot and next to last shot times, when there was no such delay caused by the shooter).

 

If he says nothing, goes to the unloading table, then his cart, then comes back to ask to see the time - "Sorry, pard, we already are running the next shooter through the stage. Was there something else you wanted to discuss?"

 

That's how I do it, at the very least.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Ah, missed all that the first time. We're in agreement then.

[Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life]

Ask the scorekeeper if he used to work for Enron.

 

ts

[Madd Mike #8595]

some where in the rules or RO materials

It must be stated that, (para-phrasing) any protest inorder to be handled properly, shall be addressed, or atleast brought up for discussion

BEFORE you leave the stage where the protest accured

that makes it easier to handle properly

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

let us cut to the chase (Get to the point - leaving out unnecessary preamble)

just exactly when did this shooter protest the time?

 

that is a fact that would be important to properly answer the question

other than "the timer operator sucked"

Nobody - AT ANY TIME - said the TO sucked.

The shooter came to their Posse Leader before the completion of the stage, before the posse left the stage in question and said

"The time recorded on my sheet doesn't seem right to me. And I never saw the timer at the completion of the stage"

 

NO one is attempting to lay blame or call names.

 

Not every TO is perfect EVERY time.

Not every shooter is perfect EVERY time.

So in light of this imperfect world filled with imperfect people, I am trying to determine the best method to correct this situation if it were to occur again.

 

And to determine if the popular answer "Offer a reshoot" is actually the correct answer or if that option is just opening up a Pandoras box of abuse.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Would still like to know what the person running the timer at the time has to say about it.

 

No way for me to answer without KNOWING what he says.

 

Does he say he held it up for the shooter to see and he just did not look. (which happens ALL the time)

Does he say yes. I called out the time??

 

We are all jumping on the timer operator. But no one has told us what he says.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Nobody - AT ANY TIME - said the TO sucked.

The shooter came to their Posse Leader before the completion of the stage, before the posse left the stage in question and said

"The time recorded on my sheet doesn't seem right to me. And I never saw the timer at the completion of the stage"

 

NO one is attempting to lay blame or call names.

 

Not every TO is perfect EVERY time.

Not every shooter is perfect EVERY time.

So in light of this imperfect world filled with imperfect people, I am trying to determine the best method to correct this situation if it were to occur again.

 

And to determine if the popular answer "Offer a reshoot" is actually the correct answer or if that option is just opening up a Pandoras box of abuse.

many - many folks on the wire state that timer operators need to be better (they say it all the time)

no one said your timer operator sucked, these post go generic real fast, most the time with answers

and genericly speaking, timer operators get blamed for a lot of stuff that shooters could make easier on them

 

geeeese::::::a reshoot is fine if handled before you leave the stage

everyone agrees to that, even here on the wire

 

R U tellen us, under yer terms listed, that no reshoot was offered?

if the shooter was I-muh Pandora, and it seems to happen a lot, then thats a different story, yet it still needs to be addressed pronto like

 

most shooters don't even offer to run the timer

a shooter can actually help the few::: that do::: run the timer in many ways

in your case, just ask the timer, "hey :mr forgot to tell me: what was my time::::thanks"

case closed

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

You can receive a protest any time until the shooters are all off the stage. But, protesting a time being wrong at any point past when the TO clears the timer to get ready to time the next shooter, is a waste of effort. The proof is gone at that point. And the TO's position will be (should be) upheld.

Good luck, GJ

[Blastmaster]

As a supervisor, be 'fair', be 'honest', be 'firm' in your call!!!!! A TO/MD is a supervisor!

 

If you are one of those, then you will know what is right/wrong!

 

As a TO, if you 'believe' you did everything correct and in the benifit of the shooter, stick with you call, no reshoot! If you have doubt??? reshoot.

 

Did the shooter submit a format challenge after review with TO? OK!! If no formal protest,,,, next shooter!1 As MD, call in your designated 'grievence committee and go over the 'facts'!! Then make the call!! Hopefully, it will go the shooters way! All parties,,,,, smile and accept the call after it is made.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Ask the scorekeeper if he used to work for Enron.

 

ts

Come on now. Let's keep this serious and on the level.

 

[crosscut hardy]

RESHOOT..... Have shot with TO's who do not call out times and shooters have

 

to call out to them to ask "what was my time".... I have personally asked a couple

 

of TO's who do not call out times to please call out times.

 

....crosscut

[Nellie Blue #54399]

Reshoot should be offered. Abuse could only take place if a TO continually neglected to call out time & show shooter the timer. Might be a better lesson here for the TO than the shooter.

 

Ditto!

[Dang It Dan 13202]

As a supervisor, be 'fair', be 'honest', be 'firm' in your call!!!!! A TO/MD is a supervisor!

 

If you are one of those, then you will know what is right/wrong!

 

As a TO, if you 'believe' you did everything correct and in the benifit of the shooter, stick with you call, no reshoot! If you have doubt??? reshoot.

 

Did the shooter submit a format challenge after review with TO? OK!! If no formal protest,,,, next shooter!1 As MD, call in your designated 'grievence committee and go over the 'facts'!! Then make the call!! Hopefully, it will go the shooters way! All parties,,,,, smile and accept the call after it is made.

 

Actually, the Posse Marshal is the "supervisor". The TO is responsible for "safely assisting the shooter.....yada, yada, yada." This is all gotten way off topic. It's not that hard. "IF" you are the TO and you KNOW you didn't call out the time for any reason, give the guy a reshoot. If you have a habit of clearly calling out the time and you "KNOW" you did, let him go talk to the MD. Call the next shooter and move along. At the end of the day the worst thing that will happen is that the shooter will most likely get the reshoot and the Range Gods will make any necessary adjustments at some point down the line.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

[Blastmaster]

Nobody - AT ANY TIME - said the TO sucked.

The shooter came to their Posse Leader before the completion of the stage, before the posse left the stage in question and said

"The time recorded on my sheet doesn't seem right to me. And I never saw the timer at the completion of the stage"

As far as I know, there is no rule requiring the TO to 'show' the timer to shooter. It is a nice jesture on TO's part to do such. There is a rule 5J in ROI that states the TO to announce the time to shooter upon completion. TO didn't do that and that is the only thread the shooter/MD can base a protest/decision on.

NO one is attempting to lay blame or call names.

 

Not every TO is perfect EVERY time.

Not every shooter is perfect EVERY time.

So in light of this imperfect world filled with imperfect people, I am trying to determine the best method to correct this situation if it were to occur again.

Did the shooter formally protest? You know, talk to TO, then if no satisfaction, go to the MD/grievenance committee? Did the shooter give any reason why it took so long for him to wander over to verify his score?

And to determine if the popular answer "Offer a reshoot" is actually the correct answer or if that option is just opening up a Pandoras box of abuse.

Good thread, I don't know if a reshoot is the actual correct answer, depends on what the TO has to say, depends on how far the shooter pushed the issue. There is an established protocal within SASS to sort out such situations. Follow it. As others have mentioned, there is some responsibilty on the shooters part to ask or reconfirm their time upon completion of the stage and leaving the firing line. It definitely would please the shooter to reshoot but it does open up the Pandoras box for all the shooters, not necessary to abuse but.. I am glad that I've never run across this in the ten plus years of shooting,,,, ..

[Blastmaster]

Actually, the Posse Marshal is the "supervisor". The TO is responsible for "safely assisting the shooter.....yada, yada, yada." This is all gotten way off topic. It's not that hard. "IF" you are the TO and you KNOW you didn't call out the time for any reason, give the guy a reshoot. If you have a habit of clearly calling out the time and you "KNOW" you did, let him go talk to the MD. Call the next shooter and move along. At the end of the day the worst thing that will happen is that the shooter will most likely get the reshoot and the Range Gods will make any necessary adjustments at some point down the line.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

In all of my shooting, whom ever is running the timer (TO) makes the call. That makes him a supervisor or person of authority. Yes the PM is a supervisor and has more responsibillity too but his has appointed his authority to the TO's.

 

if you as the TO and believe the shooter has a legitimate point, then offer the reshoot or whatever, don't pass it on to MD.

 

Whatever you do, you are potentially affecting the scores of all the other shooters at the match.

[Cowboy Junky]

Guy's "must" might not be the right word he should have used......But when the shooter finishes the stage they are right there with you (or should be) 9 times out of 10 they will look at you when finished.

 

I always take that opportunity to casually show them the timer as I call out the time. If they are competitive they usually are attentive and are the ones more than likely that will dispute a time so that can avoid an issue. If they walk away or don't look at me......They aren’t that interested and probably won’t dispute the time either way. I won’t chase those folks down but simply call out the time and press on.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

In all of my shooting, whom ever is running the timer (TO) makes the call. That makes him a supervisor or person of authority. Yes the PM is a supervisor and has more responsibillity too but his has appointed his authority to the TO's.

 

if you as the TO and believe the shooter has a legitimate point, then offer the reshoot or whatever, don't pass it on to MD.

 

Whatever you do, you are potentially affecting the scores of all the other shooters at the match.

When I was a Match Director one of my pet peeves was TO's giving out reshoots without the knowledge of the Range Master or myself. Giving a reshoot is a pretty big deal and can have an impact of the match for sure. Granted I was running a pretty big state match but even at monthlies I like to stay in the habit of asking the MD. Helps me follow proper procedure at bigger shoots......

 

I have seen shooters receive reshoots when they did not deserve one because the TO did not know better. It's always better to verify the right call is being made.

 

Stan

[Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life]

Come on now. Let's keep this serious and on the level.

 

 

I like bein' unserious and un-level... and you don't have much say-so 'bout it.

 

ts

[Blastmaster]

 

When I was a Match Director one of my pet peeves was TO's giving out reshoots without the knowledge of the Range Master or myself. Giving a reshoot is a pretty big deal and can have an impact of the match for sure. Granted I was running a pretty big state match but even at monthlies I like to stay in the habit of asking the MD. Helps me follow proper procedure at bigger shoots......

 

I have seen shooters receive reshoots when they did not deserve one because the TO did not know better. It's always better to verify the right call is being made.

 

Stan

 

 

SFR,

 

As MD, you can certainly make the rules in which you want the match to be run. As a MD, he can write up the procedures he wants the PM/TO to follow and as a potential TO, I will attempt to follow the MD wishes, or just decline the timer. In this thread, you want the final call, OK, I would take every hang-nail call to the MD,