coach guns 12 ga.

[pachaug kid]

I have just started shootng cas, looking for input on coach guns, cz made in turkey, stoeger?, remington made in russia? or any other, thanks

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

oh boy!

first thing you will hear 100 times or more is to go to your local shoots and get the feel of them. most every cowboy shooter will be thrilled to let you try theirs. its true, we are.

where are you located? how much do you want to spend?

personally i have had great luck with stoeger and always suggest the double triggers over single.

with dozens of options and thousands of opinions, you'll ultimately have to find what works best for you.

good luck and welcome to the fire!

CC

[Noz]

CZ is expensive and needs help out of the box.

Stoeger is most common and needs help out of the box

Baikal (Remington Spartan) is a tank. Virtually indestructable and needs help out of the box.

 

Are you seeing a trend here.

 

My choice of the three would be the Baikal. Steves Gunz worked it over and made a lady out of her.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I am not having much luck with Stoegers, new, used or gunsmithed, but the Baikal shoots every time BUT after beating the bejeez outa my bird fanger fer a box or two of shells, I wish it would break! Watch the boards awhile and you will see that they have all become kit guns and the gunsmiths are learning their trade at our expense with these things! The old hammer gun I got from Caps back when has been the best shotgun I have had. I think it came from China and was called a CC Special Edition, aint it a hoot that it takes a China man to make a double that works.

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

Keep in mind that a double need not be a short tubed coach gun. I've seen several people shoot field guns with 26-28 inch barrels.

 

The really pricey doubles are single trigger SKBs and Brownings (both discontinued) that cowboy shooters snap up and have 'smithed. These are field guns that are often cut down but many people seem to like them in the 22 inch range. You're talking $1200 or more to get one of these guns match ready but no doubt they are nice.

 

Academy Sports imports a Turkish single trigger S/S called the Yildiz that goes for under $500; one of the guys on the list bought one and had a cowboy gunsmith slick it up. I was hoping this would be a "poor man's SKB" (poor being a relative term) but it didn't seem to work out as well as I had hoped.

 

I shoot a '97 pump myself. If I were buying a double and could not luck into a deal on an SKB, I would buy the Baikal. They are currently imported by EAA and retail for about $325. As seen above, the same gun was formerly sold as the Remington Spartan and as a Bounty Hunter II. Different importers, different names, I think.

 

I learned yesterday that Lake Baikal (located in Siberia) is the deepest lake in the world. A shotgun with that name must be good, right?

[Shooting Bull]

Best advice I've been given in SASS and advice I repeat here as often as possible is:

 

You're gonna spend $1K+ on a good pair of pistols. You're also gonna spend $1K+ on a slicked up rifle. Don't skimp on what amounts to 1/4 of your match guns. Get a shotgun that's equal in quality and performance to your other match guns.

 

 

(Johnny Meadows SKB )

[SalinasKid]

I have a Pedersoli Wyatt Earp coach 12 ga. It is a bit pricey. But then arguing price is like arguing religion. The gun starts out as a CZ. It is sent to Italy and Pedersoli releated the following to me as to what happens when they receive it:

 

"The shotgun is completly disassembled, reworked for the critical features, like the lock mechanism, we improve the barrels’ opening to ease the fast loading and unloading of the cartridge/shells. We lapp and polish the chambers for a quick extraction of the shells.We make the checkered larger hammers, the butt plates and some other minor parts. The blueing is made in Italy and most important the shotguns are proof tested at the National Proof House, like all our guns."

 

The shells to fall out with ease. The shotgun is certainly a beautiful piece and hits on target every time. It is heavier and more substantive than a Stoeger and that could be a positive or negative, depending on the individual. I love mine for both its on the mark accuracy, ease of open/close, quick exit of shells, and just beautiful look.

 

It is a bit pricey, though.

[Kougarok George]

What is a bust for me is what I have now compared to what started with.

If I had known what I know now I would have bought a BSS from the start rather than the end.

Lose with your pistols,

Win with your shotgun....

[Anvil Al #59168]

CZ is expensive and needs help out of the box.

Stoeger is most common and needs help out of the box

Baikal (Remington Spartan) is a tank. Virtually indestructable and needs help out of the box.

 

Are you seeing a trend here.

 

My choice of the three would be the Baikal. Steves Gunz worked it over and made a lady out of her.

 

 

Yep.

If you are going to spend that much on a CZ. Forget it and just get a SKB.

Had a Stoeger. Did not like it.

Have had my Baikal for 7 years. Still going. Like a SKB better. But if not that.

Then would not take for my Baikal.

Gunslinger has done a couple for me. He is great with them.

I would just order one from him already slicked and ready to go.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Best advice is to visit a match and try out several guns to see what you like.

 

And be sure to read:

http://www.curtrich.com/GettingStarted01.html

[Rio Brazos Kid]

After reading at least 100 posts on this subject, Im totally convinced that the SKB's and BSS's and other high dollar SXS shotguns are the cream of the crop. I also know that the Baikals and the Stoegers are the ones you see most on the line at matches. The Baikals are known as "Built Like Tanks", and very service3able guns when slicked up by good CAS gunsmiths. Stoegers have a similar reputation, except are said to not be as reliable as the Baikal's.

 

I personally use Stoegers and find them very reliable. Never had the first problem with either the single trigger model or the double trigger model. Both have always worked flawlessly. The good thing about them is ready availability, and low price. Additionally if you follow the instructions on Marauders web site, you can slick them up yourself quite easily, and make them run as fast as needed in CAS shooting.

 

As has been stated, try to shoot some of all before making your decision. Of course most everyone will immediately want an SKB, but price may keep you away for a while. Shooting a Baikal or Stoeger for a while may be what you need to do till you can rake up enough cash. Good thing is you can sell those cheaper guns easily, and for almost what you paid for them. Always a newby around, looking for guns to get started.

 

RBK

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

Call Nate Kiowa Jones at Steve's Guns. He sells a "race-ready" hammer double that is super sweet. I know, I bought one...

[Carlos Murphy # 873]

I had a CZ Durango, loved it, beautiful shotgun, very tight out of the box and needed to be freed up.

For my 2 cents, it was far too pretty to be banged up in composition and consider its cost, just over $700.00.

 

I had a Chinese clone with mule ears, didn't have to worry about putting any ware on it, it shot like any coach gun, didn't need any break-in and the empty's fell right out. Under 300 bucks.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Pards, let's not steer the guy to a hammered double unless we warn him that the gun is essentially for Classic Cowboy category only. Sure, it can be used in other categories (except B Western) but it can't be very competitive. And, sooner or later most pards want to be somewhat competitive.

 

Here's some highlights of ones most often used in CAS:

Stoeger double trigger - cheap, plentiful, but most folks wear one out in 3-5 years. In production, but parts hard to get

Baikal double trigger - cheap, rugged, last a long time, but HAVE to be smithed to be at all useable. In production again and being imported again. Parts pretty easy now to get.

Either of these two guns with a single trigger - usually nothing but trouble

 

Stepping up to mid price range:

Ithaca SKB 100 or 200 - single trigger, inertia reset of trigger. Lightest double around. Requires some special tuningif it is not resetting the trigger with light loads. Haven't been built since early 80s, parts if needed sometimes have to be built

Miroku or Daly 500 - double trigger, perhaps the forgetten gem of this bunch. Haven't been made since the 80s. Parts can be tricky

 

Stepping up to high end:

Browning BSS single trigger mechanical reset - no worry using light loads. Haven't been made since the 80s.

Winchester 23 single trigger mechanical reset - no problem with light loads. Haven't been made since the 80s.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

[Buckwheat Jack]

You don't need to spend a fortune to get started in SASS. You may want to upgrade as you go along...if you fall in love with it. I spent about $600 on a pair of pistols and a little under $300 on a Chinese SXS. I already had an old Rossi SRC, so I was armed for under $1000 outlay. Still using same duns. I enjoy SASS but don,t get to shoot asa much as I would like. When I get too fast for my guns, I may change some of them.

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

Get the Baikal. End of story.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Keep in mind that a double need not be a short tubed coach gun. I've seen several people shoot field guns with 26-28 inch barrels.

 

Howdy

 

That's right. A lot of shooters are under the misconception that all shotguns in the Old West were coach guns. There were a lot more long barreled shotguns hanging in farmhouses and bunkhouses than coach guns. It's pretty tough to shoot your supper with a coach gun. I wish I had a dollar for every cowboy who is shooting a coach gun and searching for the lightest loads he can find. A coach gun is lighter than the same gun with longer barrels, so it is going to beat you up more with recoil.

 

My Main Match SXS is an old Stevens 24" hammer gun. It would have been longer but somebody cut it down before I got it. I used to shoot another old Stevens with 30" full choked barrels. You're going to hear a lot of stuff about how you can't maneuver a long barreled shotgun around a tight stage. I find very few stages that I can't maneuver my 24" hammer gun around.

 

Make sure you try some out before you buy. Both short barrels and long barrels.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

I am not having much luck with Stoegers, new, used or gunsmithed, but the Baikal shoots every time BUT after beating the bejeez outa my bird fanger fer a box or two of shells, I wish it would break! Watch the boards awhile and you will see that they have all become kit guns and the gunsmiths are learning their trade at our expense with these things! The old hammer gun I got from Caps back when has been the best shotgun I have had. I think it came from China and was called a CC Special Edition, aint it a hoot that it takes a China man to make a double that works.

 

 

Let's see now. I've been work the Baikals since they were first imported by KBI back in the early 90's. Yep, I guess I'm still learning

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

I am not having much luck with Stoegers, new, used or gunsmithed, but the Baikal shoots every time BUT after beating the bejeez outa my bird fanger fer a box or two of shells, I wish it would break! Watch the boards awhile and you will see that they have all become kit guns and the gunsmiths are learning their trade at our expense with these things! The old hammer gun I got from Caps back when has been the best shotgun I have had. I think it came from China and was called a CC Special Edition, aint it a hoot that it takes a China man to make a double that works.

I've only been working on the Baikals for five or six years, I guess I'm still learning also????

Johnny Meadows

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Pards, let's not steer the guy to a hammered double unless we warn him that the gun is essentially for Classic Cowboy category only. Sure, it can be used in other categories (except B Western) but it can't be very competitive.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Really?

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

One thing I can add about the Bakail shotguns are that parts are available, virtually overnight. If something breaks or is worn down, it can be fixed. Compare that to a Stoeger and trying to get parts. MT

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Really?

Yep, but present company excepted. Both of us.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Pards, let's not steer the guy to a hammered double unless we warn him that the gun is essentially for Classic Cowboy category only. Sure, it can be used in other categories (except B Western) but it can't be very competitive.

 

 

 

 

Good luck, GJ

It can and is used in "B" western category. MT

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

It can and is used in "B" western category. MT

 

Alright, I'll stand corrected!

Thanks, GJ

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Alright, I'll stand corrected!

Thanks, GJ

 

Lol. GJ, You were really pretty much correct.

 

At the top levels a hammer double is gonna cost a shooter at least .25 seconds per stage and a chance of missing a hammer and adding a couple extra seconds.

 

I started with a hammer double because I thought it looked coolest. When I started getting competitive i tried the '97 and the hammerless, but didn't enjoy shooting either nearly as much as my old hammer gun.

 

Possum

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Baikal and other chambers can be slicked up with little or no skill required. A drill will work, but if one has a drill press it will work better.

 

I used a long cleaning jag (think was an old dewey left over from high power days) chucked it up in my drill press, wrapped it with green scotchbright pad (cut a 3 - 3.5 inch strip across short axis of a big pad bought in packs at either sams or costco). It just barely makes it into a 12 guage chamber. Make sure you wrap pad so it tightens as the drill turns.

 

Turned on the the drill press and moved barrels up and down until they got warm. Turned of press switched barrels and repeated process numerous times.

Periodically would stop and reassemble gun and check how empties shucked. Stopped when I thought it was working ok

 

When I started could see a bunch of machining marks in chambers. As you continue they become less and less visiable and the chambers begin to look really shiny (I know this is pretty elementary, but some folks out there may have never worked metal). Any of you "real gunsmiths" feel free to add cautionary notes.

 

Tested in a match, still not where I wanted to be, repeated process about 4 to 6 times per barrel

 

For final polish added some of the polishing stuff that comes with a plastic headlight renewer kit. Probably 30 - 45 seconds per barrel. Some folks use brake hones, i figured they were more agressive and I might remove too much metal.

 

I also noticed if you push locking lever to left, will keep Baikal barrels fully opened making it easier to insert new shells. Baikals kind have a 2 stage thing going on when you open the action. THey stop about 3/4 open and you have to push fully opened. Left to their own devices go back to the sorta 3/4 position. Fixing this goes beyond my comfort zone and may well be something I pay to get fixed. There is info on the net as to how to do it - I see too many opportunities for me to screw it up.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

I use the brake hone first, set a low tension, and using ATF as a honing oil. Then hone slowly and not too much, but enough to remove the machining marks,tooling marks, out of the chambers. Then use a mandrel, (3/8" wooden dowell makes a good one), wrap on 0000 steel wool till it fits real snug in the chamber, and with a drill, polish the chamber till its smooth as glass. As a final touch add some Flitz metal polish to the steel wool and polish it again.

 

With this treatment, shells simply fall out of the gun. Not hard to do and very effective.

 

RBK

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

To polish my chambers, I save a few fired hulls from the shotgun. Take a 10 gauge cleaning brush, chucked into my drill, and wrap some wet dry automotive sandpaper around the brush, 200 grit, finish with 1000 grit and then steel wool for final polish. I go no deeper then the brush bristles, Checking every once in a while with the fired hulls, until they drop freely out, then go into the 1000 grit and steel wool wrapped around the brush, shines like a mirror. I've had 3 Stoegers, and 1 Bakail I have done this with. Never took longer then an hours work. MT

[Shooting Bull]

I've only been working on the Baikals for five or six years, I guess I'm still learning also????

Johnny Meadows

 

 

STILL LEARNING?!?!? You mean you're not the world class gunsmith I was told about??? Then I want a discount on my next SKB.

 

 

You still got that 200 with the engraved silver receiver you had on display at Eldorado?

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

After reading at least 100 posts on this subject, Im totally convinced that the SKB's and BSS's and other high dollar SXS shotguns are the cream of the crop. I also know that the Baikals and the Stoegers are the ones you see most on the line at matches. The Baikals are known as "Built Like Tanks", and very service3able guns when slicked up by good CAS gunsmiths. Stoegers have a similar reputation, except are said to not be as reliable as the Baikal's.

 

I personally use Stoegers and find them very reliable. Never had the first problem with either the single trigger model or the double trigger model. Both have always worked flawlessly. The good thing about them is ready availability, and low price. Additionally if you follow the instructions on Marauders web site, you can slick them up yourself quite easily, and make them run as fast as needed in CAS shooting.

 

As has been stated, try to shoot some of all before making your decision. Of course most everyone will immediately want an SKB, but price may keep you away for a while. Shooting a Baikal or Stoeger for a while may be what you need to do till you can rake up enough cash. Good thing is you can sell those cheaper guns easily, and for almost what you paid for them. Always a newby around, looking for guns to get started.

 

Ditto I shoot stoeger now for 4 years ,with out a hiccup .

A dabble trigger Stoeger can be had new for 325.00 and used as low as 100.00 .

For the price and dependability you cant beat the Stoeger !

Good luck .

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Much delayed double-tap

[Goatneck Clem]

Interesting comments posted on this thread. I have ample parts for the Stoegers, all The SKB Models,the Browning BSS's and the Winchester Model 21's and 23's.

 

 

Goatneck

[Colt McAllister]

A very interesting post. I didn't realize everyone in sass is an expert? I can't believe there is even a need for gunsmiths.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

A very interesting post. I didn't realize everyone in sass is an expert? I can't believe there is even a need for gunsmiths.

 

I hope that statement was "Tongue in Cheek" because we need every qualified Gunsmith we have and could use more.

Good qualified gunsmiths are becoming hard to find in many areas, and The BATF is making it hard for those we still have to exist. Personally I am thankfull for every qualifird gunsmith we have.

 

RBK

[Colt McAllister]

I hope that statement was "Tongue in Cheek" because we need every qualified Gunsmith we have and could use more.

Good qualified gunsmiths are becoming hard to find in many areas, and The BATF is making it hard for those we still have to exist. Personally I am thankfull for every qualifird gunsmith we have.

 

RBK

 

Your right, there are very few true gunsmiths left. The word gunsmith is used very loosely in our sport. We have a few good specialist, but very few true gunsmiths. Some of the advise given on this post and on the wire is a joke.