Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Three positions in the scenario. Shooter is standing at position 1 holding the rifle. The shooter sweeps the targets correctly, then moves forward to position 2 and makes rifle safe. The shooter draws his pistols and sweeps the targets correctly. The shooter is moving to position 3, where there are six fallers, and where the shotgun is staged. Half way there, his shotgun belt slides down the body and hits the ground, and there are no other shells on his person. The Handbook states: Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of reloading any firearm during a stage or “ejected” from any firearm is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot. Staged ammunition dropped back where it was staged is not considered “dead.” The shooter states, "But I wasn't in the course of reloading, I was moving." The Handbook also states: Dropped round/firearm – a round/firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended. What is the call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I would say dropped ammo, can't retrieved and used. Seems it would be the same if you dropped any round whether your standing still or moving. It is difficult to retrieve a round or shotgun belt safely from the ground. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustler, SASS #33316 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Other than a lot of laughing -- No call! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yikes! This is getting bad. Wow! This is my least favorite rule. It is so long and convoluted (you ommitted parts), when the rule about breaking the 170 would suffice. IIRC, we had a case where the shooter's gun holster slid down. Again, IIRC they were not considered dropped guns as they stayed in the holster. So, I'd say no call as the shells remained in the belt. If that is the correct call, it just provides emphasis to the stupidity of this rule. Regards, Allie "living dangerously" Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Well, there is a conflict to my way of thinking... Holstered guns are considered safe, so if the guns remained in their holsters they could be considered safe; no penalty. But the guns were clearly not in the shooter's control, so they could be considered "dropped empty guns" justirying a penalty. Same reasoning could be applied to the ammo in the belt when the belt hit the ground. ...I think I'm gonna sit back and just watch the arguement develop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 My question is ..... How did the shotgun belt fall to the ground and not include the gun belt which is normally below the shotgun belt? Did the shotgun belt become unbuckled? Are the gun holsters on the shotgun belt? The shooter can not bend over to retrieve the belt from the ground. So the shooter is done where his stands. All unfired rounds are misses. If the shooter bends over to retrieve belt there are other penalties involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yikes! IIRC, we had a case where the shooter's gun holster slid down. Again, IIRC they were not considered dropped guns as they stayed in the holster. So, I'd say no call as the shells remained in the belt. If that is the correct call, it just provides emphasis to the stupidity of this rule. Regards, Allie "living dangerously" Mo Allie's got it right, saw it happen at a state match.......no call Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 My question is ..... How did the shotgun belt fall to the ground and not include the gun belt which is normally below the shotgun belt? Did the shotgun belt become unbuckled? Are the gun holsters on the shotgun belt? The shooter can not bend over to retrieve the belt from the ground. So the shooter is done where his stands. All unfired rounds are misses. If the shooter bends over to retrieve belt there are other penalties involved. Where does it say the shooter can't bend down and pick up the shotgun belt? It does not say that anywhere. His pistols are holstered, the rifle is staged on a prop, the shotgun is staged on a prop and his hands are free. There is no 170 issues in the OP. The shotgun rounds were not "Dropped" the belt was. The shooter can retrieve the belt and use any shotgun rounds that remained in the belt. Any rounds that fell out of the belt(where originally staged) would be considered dead rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I'd say no call. The rounds were not dropped, the belt was. Were it me, I'd probably laugh, say "I'm done" and take the misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Sounds like equipment failure,,,,,, retreive the belt watching gun muzzle direction and use any rounds still in belt to complete stage .... Next Shooter to da line .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 .... Half way there, his shotgun belt slides down the body and hits the ground, and there are no other shells on his person....What is the call? Shooter STOPS!. Pulls his shotgun belt back up above his/hers nonexistent hips. Then Shooter proceeds to the...........shotgun targets and shoots them all down! Shooter did NOT gain an advantage so no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 The rule is that dropped rounds may not be retrieved. The rule is to prevent a shooter from being in an awkward position that may lead to unsafe conditions. The thinking is just as valid for loose shells on the ground as shells in a belt on the ground. I do not like handing out misses but safety comes first, yes? 6 misses. Very Best Regards, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 No call. Provided that the revolvers that he has on his gunbelt remain in the holsters. Rounds that are free of the shotgun belt are downed and unusable. laughter by observers is necessary .... and fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 If his pants fell off, would he be allowed to pull them up and continue? < Where is Philly Slim when you need him > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of reloading any firearm during a stage or “ejected” from any firearm is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot. Staged ammunition dropped back where it was staged is not considered “dead.” The shooter states, "But I wasn't in the course of reloading, I was moving." The Handbook also states: Dropped round/firearm – a round/firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended. What is the call? Ok I'll bite, Okie. I agree with the shooter as he wasn't loading, shooting or handling a firearm. To me, the rule doesn't apply. Not sure about the second rule as it's kind of vague and I believe the rule was written without this particular possibility in mind. If I were king of the world, I'd say "no call" and treat it the same as tripping over one's feet. If I were the shooter, I'd take the misses as it would take me longer to get the belt back on than to shoot the string. Then I'd try to put up with some well-deserved ribbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassalong Hopidy Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 All I believe the shooter has dropped the ammo--he may have dropped it while encased in the belt, but he has dropped both. The cited rule does not cover the situation or prohibit retrieving ammo dropped while moving. A shooter might be considered "reloading" if he has pulled ammo from the belt while moving and drops it, but the rule simply does not cover ammo falling to the ground while moving between positions. As for considerations about breaking the 170 or sweeping others with holstered pistols, the rule provides as follows: A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. In short, I see no reason why the shooter, who has no guns in his hands,cannot retrieve the belt. Since rounds must be loaded from his person, he presumably must put the belt on before pulling shells to shoot the knockdowns. Cassalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 We already have a ruling that if the gun belt drops with the guns in the holster, the gun is not considered to be dropped. So that would lead me to say the cartridges were not dropped either, but the belt, etc. I can see some concerns about having to pick up a dropped belt, though. At a local shoot, I would recommend stopping the shooter for safety sake and support a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 That was a strange situation to be sure. My first thought was exactly the same as Marauder's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassalong Hopidy Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 We already have a ruling that if the gun belt drops with the guns in the holster, the gun is not considered to be dropped. So that would lead me to say the cartridges were not dropped either, but the belt, etc. I can see some concerns about having to pick up a dropped belt, though. At a local shoot, I would recommend stopping the shooter for safety sake and support a reshoot. Marauder I am just curious. What are your concerns about picking up a dropped belt? Certainly, the TO has the prerogative of stopping the shooter, in which he should be given a reshoot. But if he isn't stopped, it looks like he is free to retrieve the belt, put it on, and finish the stage. Cassalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Once the first round goes down range the shooter is committed to the stage and must finish to the best of their ability. The rounds were not dropped while reloading the shotgun. The shooters equipment failed and they should be allowed to do what ever is necessary as long as they don't break any rules. If a shooter falls to the ground and they don't break any of the safety rules then they are allowed to get back up and finish the stage. Why would this be ok and it not be ok to safely retrieve a shotgun belt? Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 Ok I'll bite, Okie. I agree with the shooter as he wasn't loading, shooting or handling a firearm. To me, the rule doesn't apply. Not sure about the second rule as it's kind of vague... No trolling, Deadwood. This actually happened at a match I was visiting last week, which BTW was a fun match with a lot of fine folks. I cited the only two references about dropped ammo that I could find. The call? The shooter was given six misses. Me? My thoughts exactly mirror Marauder's and Stan's words. I might have done things differently, but as you can see, there are a lot of different opinions here. To his credit, the shooter seemed to laugh it off. This post isn't meant to cast stones, rather to get other opinions and learn from the experience. The Handbooks do not cover every possible contingency, and if they did, we'd have to wade through War and Peace. I always like to hear other folks take on the situation, whether I agree or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 6 misses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think Stan said it best. No real safety issue if the shooter is careful. I'm just thinking of all the laughter and teasing as the guy tries to finish the stage!!! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 A number Years ago a SASS shooter with a very low number ,,,, had the buckle on a shotgun belt break and hit the ground .... With much laughter the belt was retrieved,slung over the shoulder and the stage finished ,,,,,,, The call was no call !!! If it's good fer da goose it's good fer us common folk ..... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Shooter did not have have gun in hand yet, shells did not hit ground, shotgun belt hit ground, so no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 No trolling, Deadwood. This actually happened at a match I was visiting last week, which BTW was a fun match with a lot of fine folks. I cited the only two references about dropped ammo that I could find. Oh no Okie, I knew this wasn't trolling. I always read these threads but don't often participate. Just my way of saying I was engaging in the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I don't understand the problem! SH page 26 item 36 says Ammo on belt must be worn just above the pistol belt at or below the belly button. If the shotgun belt "slides down the body and hits the ground", it means either the shooter has no pistol belt or his pistol belt too slides down the body.....as the SG belt cannot slides alone passing upon the pistol belt which will acts like a stop for the SG belt. It is stated the SG belt not the pistol belt.....and it is written the belt slides not falls as with a broken buckle or tab. So the issue is no more for the ammos but for the pistols are they still safely in the holsters or have they felt down on the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Stan, What would you do as a TO if a shooter while moving from point a to point b had his only revolver reload drop to the ground. The stage requires a reload. Would you let him pick up the round off the ground before proceding to the next shooting position? My understanding is, you should not and if he does, a safety should be awarded. Rounds on the ground are dead. A shooter falling is different since the rounds remain on their person and they do not pick them up. If the shells fell out when he fell, they would be dead. Very Best Regards, BJT Once the first round goes down range the shooter is committed to the stage and must finish to the best of their ability. The rounds were not dropped while reloading the shotgun. The shooters equipment failed and they should be allowed to do what ever is necessary as long as they don't break any rules. If a shooter falls to the ground and they don't break any of the safety rules then they are allowed to get back up and finish the stage. Why would this be ok and it not be ok to safely retrieve a shotgun belt? Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Stan, What would you do as a TO if a shooter while moving from point a to point b had his only revolver reload drop to the ground. The stage requires a reload. Would you let him pick up the round off the ground before proceding to the next shooting position? My understanding is, you should not and if he does, a safety should be awarded. Rounds on the ground are dead. A shooter falling is different since the rounds remain on their person and they do not pick them up. If the shells fell out when he fell, they would be dead. Very Best Regards, BJT Well if his reload was still in his gun belt I would let him pick up his gun belt and continue forth. If he had removed the reload round from it's original position then he would be in the act of reloading which would mean the round was dead. There is a difference between dropping a round when attempting a reload and having your entire belt fall to the ground. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I agree there is a difference. I am not sure I see a difference between them as it affects the safety of the shooter. Very Best Regards, BJT Well if his reload was still in his gun belt I would let him pick up his gun belt and continue forth. If he had removed the reload round from it's original position then he would be in the act of reloading which would mean the round was dead. There is a difference between dropping a round when attempting a reload and having your entire belt fall to the ground. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I agree there is a difference. I am not sure I see a difference between them as it affects the safety of the shooter. Very Best Regards, BJT Personally I think the whole don't retrieve the dropped round thing is kind of silly. We have rules about breaking the 170, Sweeping folks etc......as long as you don't break the existing safety rules then what's the harm. When I see that penalty earned it is usually when the shooter is standing behind a table and they grab the dropped round off the table which requires no more bending over then was done when the gun staged on that table was picked up...... Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Some of ya'll need to ask the Good Lord for your soul back from the Devil! If you said anything other'n "NO CALL" you really need to reflect on your humanity! Turn in your RO badges and start all over again! READIN' STUFF into the rules that ain't there gets you a rep as a "Hard-Ass" RO. Only 3 things come to mind as I read the OP: 1 - was the SG belt worn properly? 2 - Are guns all still in their proper and safe places? 3 - This boy needs more potatos & bread! If the answer to 1 & 2 are yes, tell the shooter "pick up the belt, lay it on the table and fire away; any rounds on the ground are dead!" This ain't the 1st time it's happened, nor will it be the last. Same answer everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I agree there is a difference. I am not sure I see a difference between them as it affects the safety of the shooter. Very Best Regards, BJT . Well there was a big discussion a few months ago about a pistol belt falling to the ground with the pistols staying in the holsters. After pages of debate, PWB or someone ruled it a no call since pistols were still in the gun. A dropped pistol is at least a SDQ. I see no difference on a dropped shotgun belt full of ammo. The belt hit the ground not the ammo. The shooter had no gun in hand so there was no hint of muzzle control issues. No call! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Ok folks, here's another angle. Rule states if the round falls back to where it was orignally staged, it is not considered a dropped round. Ergo, it was originally staged in the belt and it fell in the belt and there was no loss of muzzle control so No Call. As for the dropped pistol reload, it did not fall where it was originally staged. As for the "can't bend over", no rule against it, in fact the rule states a loaded or non loaded gun in a properly worn holster can't sweep anyone so no call. Next shooter please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 No need to worry about the call as the shooter is almost certainly a dead man walking anyway. He is a victim of Noassatall disease. No penalty as we should do everything in our power to make him comfortable and happy in his final days. Who's going to give the news to the family? Dr. Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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