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Give 'em both barrels?


Shooting Bull

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I know there's a sort of restriction on Gunfighters where you have to be able to hear separate, distinct shots between pistols.  Can't fire both at the same time.  I've scoured the Shooter's Handbook but can't find any such requirement for SxS shotguns.  I ask because a stage this weekend called for a double tap on a large bell.  SxS shooter with double triggers pulled both triggers at the same time.  Seemed like a darn good idea to me but the question was asked.  

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I've asked that question and was told that the spotters had to be able to tell that both barrels fired and hit, if not it was a miss.

 

Not sure about the benefit of the doubt to the shooter but didn't sound unreasonable to me. I also have had my shotgun double fire before and it has a tendency to knock me back a bit (using factory loads), especially when not expecting it.

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I also cannot find any rule prohibiting a shotgun double-fire.  It isn't really a safety issue, as long as loads are not powerful enough to separate the barrels.  Spotting may become difficult, but the spent hulls will tell the story on how many were fired. .  And as with gunfighters, how much separation is "separate firing" (to a bunch of shooting enthusiast observers with impaired hearing and wearing ear plugs)?

Does it matter?

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No rule against it, but double tapping shotgun targets is provided as a specific example of poor stage design in the RO II course due to the difficulty spotting/scoring.

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Just now, Crisco said:

No rule against it, but double tapping shotgun targets is provided as a specific example of poor stage design in the RO II course due to the difficulty spotting/scoring.

 

It is common at many locations, ie EndOfTrails as a static makeup target for knockdowns that were not knocked down (but might have been hit by a non-buckeroo).

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46 minutes ago, Itchy Trigger said:

I've asked that question and was told that the spotters had to be able to tell that both barrels fired and hit, if not it was a miss.

 

Not sure about the benefit of the doubt to the shooter but didn't sound unreasonable to me. I also have had my shotgun double fire before and it has a tendency to knock me back a bit (using factory loads), especially when not expecting it.

 

 

Can't assess a penalty unless it can be cited in the rules.  That's the part I'm looking for.  I can't find anywhere that specifies what you've been told.  It's there for pistols, but not shotguns. 

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3 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

Can't assess a penalty unless it can be cited in the rules.  That's the part I'm looking for.  I can't find anywhere that specifies what you've been told.  It's there for pistols, but not shotguns. 

 

No penalty accessed, just not credited with the "potential" hit.

 

Same as for the rifle or pistol, if they believe you only shot 9 times and there are 10 targets, then it is a miss.

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3 minutes ago, Itchy Trigger said:

 

No penalty accessed, just not credited with the "potential" hit.

LOL, so if the spotters can’t keep up, assess a miss? Wow. 

It’s perfectly legal. If the Md didn’t want close splits on that target they should have written it differently or used knockdowns. Next shooter….

 

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PLUS ONE for Smokestack.  In all the years I have been shooting CAS, there has NEVER BEEN a penalty for doubling a S x S on a Double tap static shotgun target.  Whilst it may give ya a little thump, it's great fun :D  '87 and '97 shooters have their little advantages from time to time as well.

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If you know it's a hit, it's a hit.
If you think it's a hit, it's a hit.
If you think it's a miss, it's a hit.
If you know it's a miss, it's a miss.

So there's that.

Now, as far as giving it both barrels goes...   Once, I had a really stubborn knock down that wouldn't go down.  After four attempts and it still standing, I gave it both barrels.

It went down.

My shoulder complained.

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That would be something to determine at the walk through. No rule against it I know of. Were 2 hulls shucked?

 

Widder done that one time at the TN State championship in Wartrace with his 97. Stage called for 6 kds but we only heard 3 shots. All 6 kds fell so we counted it. It helped that he was going up against Red Knee.

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1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

If you know it's a hit, it's a hit.
If you think it's a hit, it's a hit.
If you think it's a miss, it's a hit.
If you know it's a miss, it's a miss.

 

This needs to be gone over and over and over with some spotters. They just can't seem to get it. When I get a miss I would like to know which one so I know what I may need to address to resolve my misses in the future. But when spotters tells me he/she doesn't know which one was a miss I feel he/she has just gone to line 3. I had one miss this past weekend and the TO called it clean after seeing the first spotter say clean. Then had to change it to 1 miss when the other two spotters said miss. I asked which target and gun and they couldn't tell me. TO said he didn't see a miss but had to go with the spotters call. I really have a problem with this. When I spot I can tell you which gun and which shot was a miss. (my reason for asking is because I was getting misses and when I queried I found out it was usually the last pistol shot and when I watched a video of my shooting I saw I was already  heading for my holster when I fired the last shot so I was pulling that shot off target. This gave me something to work on. I now focus more on shooting that last round before heading for the holster and it has helped.)

 

TM

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+1 to Smokestack

 

Match Director Guide, Page 4

Quote

Shotgun knockdowns are encouraged for
good reason. Calls on shotgun hits can be
speculative at times, with the “golden BB”
rule too often used. Re-settable targets of
some kind that go down with a good hit
leave no doubt and are undisputed. 

 

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1 hour ago, Itchy Trigger said:

 

No penalty accessed, just not credited with the "potential" hit.

 

Same as for the rifle or pistol, if they believe you only shot 9 times and there are 10 targets, then it is a miss.

Seriously :rolleyes:

That came from what section in 'The Book'?

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1 hour ago, Itchy Trigger said:

 

No penalty accessed, just not credited with the "potential" hit.

 

Same as for the rifle or pistol, if they believe you only shot 9 times and there are 10 targets, then it is a miss.

 

 

As a TO, if a spotter ever says that to me I'm going to replace them immediately and then go over the "If you think it's a miss" philosophy later. 

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57 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

That would be something to determine at the walk through. No rule against it I know of. Were 2 hulls shucked?

 

Widder done that one time at the TN State championship in Wartrace with his 97. Stage called for 6 kds but we only heard 3 shots. All 6 kds fell so we counted it. It helped that he was going up against Red Knee.

 

Well, that's just another BIG LIE from the lips of TW. :lol:

Besides, Red Knee said he heard a distinct pause between shots 5 and 6.

;)

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

 Were 2 hulls shucked?

 

 

 

Yes

 

P.S.  If you're going to give examples please cite normal human beings.  Referencing Widder just ain't fair. :lol:

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As I recall, there must be SOME evidence of a hit. 

This comes up concerning ranges that are in open fields, such as many in the West.  There is grass all around and if you miss, there is not dust anywhere or any way to know where the bullet went unless it hits a target. 

 

In such cases, if you use the normal concept for misses, someone could actually miss all targets and be called clean.  So this is harder for spotters but they must look and or hear some evidence of a hit. 

 

Hopefully PW will advise or recall the guidance.

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2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

If you know it's a hit, it's a hit.
If you think it's a hit, it's a hit.
If you think it's a miss, it's a hit.
If you know it's a miss, it's a miss.

I know of no exceptions for locale.  Evidence of a miss is not necessarily mandatory... If in all good conscience you can call a miss based on lack of evidence of a hit without a hint of doubt, so be it.   As TO I might question it, but you're the spotter and should be confident in your call... if you're not confident, be ready to be replaced.  

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I used to shoot both barrels for fun if I happened to miss a shotgun target and ended up with odd number rounds needed. I stopped when the splatter hit someone pretty hard. My shoulder couldn't take it now a days.

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  Personally speaking with regards to pistol and rifle rounds, I will have to either SEE a miss, or I will SEE it not hit for me to call a miss. There IS a difference and to me EITHER is cause for me to call a miss. 

  If the next target to be engaged is in front of grass that's waist high and the firearm goes off and I don't see a bullet strike it, that's cause for me to call a miss. Think of it this way. A shooter loads all blanks in his rifle. That shooter fires 10 shots. Have you seen a miss? Nope, you sure haven't because you didn't see that bullet hit elsewhere on the range. But, you did see 10 rounds not hit the intended targets.

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27 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Kid, SASS #60463 said:

I used to shoot both barrels for fun if I happened to miss a shotgun target and ended up with odd number rounds needed. I stopped when the splatter hit someone pretty hard. My shoulder couldn't take it now a days.

The timer is also going to catch that extra shot adding time.

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9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

  Personally speaking with regards to pistol and rifle rounds, I will have to either SEE a miss, or I will SEE it not hit for me to call a miss. There IS a difference and to me EITHER is cause for me to call a miss. 

  If the next target to be engaged is in front of grass that's waist high and the firearm goes off and I don't see a bullet strike it, that's cause for me to call a miss. Think of it this way. A shooter loads all blanks in his rifle. That shooter fires 10 shots. Have you seen a miss? Nope, you sure haven't because you didn't see that bullet hit elsewhere on the range. But, you did see 10 rounds not hit the intended targets.

Okay, a test for ya... I'm the first shooter on a stage.  Pistols are on a dump target.  Using a pair of 1851s in .36 caliber.  I fire the first shot and a nice lead smear appears on the target... I then proceed to fire 9 more shots but no additional lead smears appear on the target, but no ripples in the grass beyond the target, nor does the target shake?  9 misses or clean?

 

I'll make it easier, during the 9 subsequent shots, the lead smear may have grown incrementally larger... but not so large as to really indicate additional hits.

 

Or, during a Plainsman side match, the rifle called for 5 shots on one target... again, 1st shooter, one lead smear.

 

Or, in a posse of 15, I'm the 15th shooter, target is literally filled with lead smears, again, .36 caliber lead round balls on 1/2" plate targets, targets don't shake, the hit of soft lead on solid steel is quieter than the bark of 15 grains of BP, literally, the sound bouncing off the targets overwhelms the slight smack of the lead hitting the steel.

 

And yes, in each of those cases I was called for misses, that weren't... because spotters didn't see evidence of a hit.  I got robbed, but hey!  They were the spotters!  I avoid such folks that seem to need evidence of a hit to call a hit, all else is a miss.

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6 minutes ago, Griff said:

Okay, a test for ya... I'm the first shooter on a stage.  Pistols are on a dump target.  Using a pair of 1851s in .36 caliber.  I fire the first shot and a nice lead smear appears on the target... I then proceed to fire 9 more shots but no additional lead smears appear on the target, but no ripples in the grass beyond the target, nor does the target shake?  9 misses or clean?

 

Every situation is based on the exact action/ reaction/ atmosphere and environment of the event.

But, benefit of the doubt ALWAYS goes TO the shooter.

If I, as a spotter, cannot determine with some level of CERTAINTY that you missed - then it is a hit.

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30 minutes ago, Griff said:

Okay, a test for ya... I'm the first shooter on a stage.  Pistols are on a dump target.  Using a pair of 1851s in .36 caliber.  I fire the first shot and a nice lead smear appears on the target... I then proceed to fire 9 more shots but no additional lead smears appear on the target, but no ripples in the grass beyond the target, nor does the target shake?  9 misses or clean?

 

Every situation is different according to that specific situation. If there's a possibility smoke obscured my view, you'll get the clean call. If there's a possibility your itty bitty .36s might've escaped my vision you'll get the clean call. By the way, I shoot 105s so I know the inherent danger of getting a miss called on what I think is a hit. I could move to 45s if I wanted to minimize that possibility. But I don't want to.

  Basically you have to look back at what I originally said. If I seen a miss ill call a miss. If I SEEN it not hit, I'll call a miss. Notice there is no "thinking about" or "I didn't believe I seen a hit". It was, I seen it not hit. If there's doubt I won't call a miss. People don't get out of bed early on a Saturday and travel no telling how far and spend no telling how much money and no telling how much time reloading to put up with bad spotters or rubber neckers as I call them. That's folks that get more enjoyment out of being able to call someone for something than they do shooting, so they're on the lookout like the hall monitor back in elementary school. 

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Similar stage (very long ago) with 3 SG targets to be hit 2x each.
Double-tapped "simo" with my Rossi SxS.
As I moved to the rifle location (about 15' away), the TO yelled
"Three more shots!".
I turned and said,
"Count the hulls on the ground." as I continued to move to the rifle.

Counted CLEAN with the shotgun.

 

BTW...shooting revolvers "simo" Gunfighter-style falls under the progressive penalty for:

Failure to comply with the rules for any shooting style category will result in the progressive penalty for “Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the shooting category”
SHB p.6

Both revolvers may be cocked at the same time but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring.

SHB p.7

 

There is no such rule regarding SxS shotguns other than the "poor stage design" reference cited by Crisco.

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I suppose pulling both triggers simultaneously on a double barrel could result in a clean miss with one barrel and a Golden BB with the other, but if the barrels are regulated properly and it looks like a solid hit, it's safe to assume both barrels resulted in good hits.

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