Give 'em both barrels?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

21 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

They're not REAL cowboys anyway. 

Hey, I resemble that remark.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Shooting Bull wouldn't know a REAL Cowboy if he tripped over him.

 

..........Widder

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

4 hours ago, Texas Maverick said:

This needs to be gone over and over and over with some spotters. They just can't seem to get it. When I get a miss I would like to know which one so I know what I may need to address to resolve my misses in the future. But when spotters tells me he/she doesn't know which one was a miss I feel he/she has just gone to line 3. I had one miss this past weekend and the TO called it clean after seeing the first spotter say clean. Then had to change it to 1 miss when the other two spotters said miss. I asked which target and gun and they couldn't tell me. TO said he didn't see a miss but had to go with the spotters call. I really have a problem with this. When I spot I can tell you which gun and which shot was a miss. (my reason for asking is because I was getting misses and when I queried I found out it was usually the last pistol shot and when I watched a video of my shooting I saw I was already  heading for my holster when I fired the last shot so I was pulling that shot off target. This gave me something to work on. I now focus more on shooting that last round before heading for the holster and it has helped.)

 

TM

I feel your pain, but there’s no requirement that spotters be able to identify the gun and the round that missed. I’m almost always going to know the gun, and for most shooters I’ll know the shot as well, but when spotting for really fast shooters that isn’t always true.

[Shooting Bull]

19 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Shooting Bull wouldn't know a REAL Cowboy if he tripped over him.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Hey, get it right.  I don't trip over cowboys.  I trip over thin air. 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

19 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I feel your pain, but there’s no requirement that spotters be able to identify the gun and the round that missed. I’m almost always going to know the gun, and for most shooters I’ll know the shot as well, but when spotting for really fast shooters that isn’t always true.

For me I usually remember the guns but if it was the first gun, I've forgot which round/target it was by the time the stage is over.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

6 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

If you know it's a hit, it's a hit.
If you think it's a hit, it's a hit.
If you think it's a miss, it's a hit.
If you know it's a miss, it's a miss.

 

Commenting on my own post, I always try to remember this when I am spotting.

There have been a few times when I was not sure, so I called a hit.   When everyone else called a miss, I simply stated this mantra.   I was respected, but since it was 2 to 1, it was ruled a miss.

There have been a couple of times when I knew it was an edge hit, and when no one else saw it, I pointed out the paint scuff, and it was ruled a hit.

The best thing you can do as a spotter is "your best," and if you are challenged, be honest.  If you are sure it's a miss when everyone else says hit, call the miss.   If you are sure it's a hit when everyone else says miss, show them why.   When you are honestly unsure, benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

Heck, there was one stage where I was sure that I had a miss, but the spotters called clean.   I did not argue.   

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

48 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Hey, get it right.  I don't trip over cowboys.  I trip over thin air. 

 

Absolutely true.  Witness the XXXXX (the name has been deleted to protect the innocent) Memorial Crater just outside the right hand door of stage 12 (the General Store) at Winter Range (now EOT).

 

 

All it took was some surgery and an alias change and we have the finely turned athlete we all know and admire as Shooting Bull.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Hey, get it right.  I don't trip over cowboys.  I trip over thin air. 

And shadows 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

2 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Hey, get it right.  I don't trip over cowboys.  I trip over thin air. 

 

I apologize..... 97 times.   (a SxS shooter only apologizes twice). 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

regarding spotting, I'm trying to imagine how with a sxs a charge from one barrel could hit a target and the other, shot simo,  be a complete miss.  I question if it is possible. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

The other thing to consider with a non falling shotgun target; the magic BB.   It's pretty much impossible for it to NOT be a hit.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

8 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

The other thing to consider with a non falling shotgun target; the magic BB.   It's pretty much impossible for it to NOT be a hit.

I hate non knockdown SG targets. You may as well just have everyone burn 4 into the back berm. All they do is cause peoples panties to get in a wad. 

[Yul Lose]

6 hours ago, Griff said:

I know of no exceptions for locale.  Evidence of a miss is not necessarily mandatory... If in all good conscience you can call a miss based on lack of evidence of a hit without a hint of doubt, so be it.   As TO I might question it, but you're the spotter and should be confident in your call... if you're not confident, be ready to be replaced.  

That’s the main reason I gave up being a spotter, my hearing is bad and add earplugs it’s nearly nonexistent and when I have safety glasses on I can’t tell in a lot of cases if the R/P targets have been hit, especially with lite loads. Many times in my short spotting career I swear there were numerous misses but other spotters had far fewer or no misses. Having me as a spotter was a disservice to all posse members so the unloading table suits me fine and occasional TO fill in, but then shooters complain that they can’t hear me because of my deep, sexy voice.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

40 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

That’s the main reason I gave up being a spotter, my hearing is bad and add earplugs it’s nearly nonexistent and when I have safety glasses on I can’t tell in a lot of cases if the R/P targets have been hit, especially with lite loads. Many times in my short spotting career I swear there were numerous misses but other spotters had far fewer or no misses. Having me as a spotter was a disservice to all posse members so the unloading table suits me fine and occasional TO fill in, but then shooters complain that they can’t hear me because of my deep, sexy voice.

This doesn't help with eyesight but for hearing I wear those electronic in the ear Walker ear plugs. I crank the volume all the way up and they help me hear the hits about as well as if I was wearing my hearing aids.

 

At our monthly matches we can't afford to fire spotters. With only about 10 to 12 of us at a match we are doing good to have 3 spotters between people at the loading table, unloading table and being TO. 

 

Our match this Saturday we had several times there was only one person spotting. I felt like we had enough people but I hadn't thought that maybe some of the guys won't spot due to eyesight and hearing limitations. 

[John Kloehr]

5 minutes ago, BradyT88 said:

At our monthly matches we can't afford to fire spotters.

Yes, it sucks when paying unemployment costs more than the measly wages.

 

Could not resist, this thread seems to be drifting anyway. Good night.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

22 minutes ago, BradyT88 said:

At our monthly matches we can't afford to fire spotters.

In all honesty; sometimes matches can't afford to keep the spotters.

Arguments, uneven calls and inconsistency is not a recipe to keep shooters returning.

 

If you have a single posse - AND the stage setup to allow it; paint between shooters.

Set paper and tape.

If you know your posses are "always" short - set the match with more reactive targets - a few cases of clay pigeons will provide some entertainment and eliminate debate.

 

 

And if all else fails...

I have yet to meet a shooter unwilling to spot for themselves.

[Shooting Bull]

3 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

Absolutely true.  Witness the XXXXX (the name has been deleted to protect the innocent) Memorial Crater just outside the right hand door of stage 12 (the General Store) at Winter Range (now EOT).

 

 

All it took was some surgery and an alias change and we have the finely turned athlete we all know and admire as Shooting Bull.

 

 

Does this crater make my butt look fat? 

 

P.S.  I'll have you know I only wear 3XL. 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

In all honesty; sometimes matches can't afford to keep the spotters.

Arguments, uneven calls and inconsistency is not a recipe to keep shooters returning.

 

If you have a single posse - AND the stage setup to allow it; paint between shooters.

Set paper and tape.

If you know your posses are "always" short - set the match with more reactive targets - a few cases of clay pigeons will provide some entertainment and eliminate debate.

 

 

And if all else fails...

I have yet to meet a shooter unwilling to spot for themselves.

So far this hasn't been a problem. It seems all of our shooters are just happy to be shooting and these are monthly matches where almost everyone is in a different category so it's not like we are competing for awards. 

 

We have reactive shotgun targets that can throw clays but for rifle and pistol we don't have anything nor the funds right now to buy any. In the summer months they paint the targets right before the match but that's it. In the winter months the paint likely won't stick.

It would be interesting to buy 20 of those stands that just hold a single clay pigeon and set them up. It would make scoring really easy and we'd find out how accurate everyone can shoot. It would make for some much slower times though. 

 

I probably just need more practice but while shooting I always think I have less misses than they score me but with some of the known good spotters I've had I know they are right and I am wrong 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Is that a stage from a match?

[Idaho Gunslinger]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Is that a stage from a match?

Yes. 

[Hoss]

I think I’m a decent counter. I watch and listen. If I see the hit, see the target move, hear the hit it’s gonna be a hit. Only need 1 indicator if the hit. I require in my mind 2 indicators for a miss. Not see the hit on target  See the dirt fly, no target movement, no sound. 2 if those make a miss. If another spotter calls an edger and tells where it hit, I’ll change my call to a hit. I will not let another spotter talk me into a miss. I calls what a saw!

last Saturday I was 99% sure a shooter had a miss, but had my view blocked at just the wrong time. I called it clean. I saw another spotter holding out one finger. When he saw me say clean, he changed his call to clean. 3rd spotter had the Miss. Shooter got a gift! I asked 3rd spotter if it was the one I thought was a miss, he said yes. Long story short, call what YOU saw. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

37 minutes ago, BradyT88 said:

Yes. 

Those targets look kinda small and far. Any idea of the distances??

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Those targets look kinda small and far. Any idea of the distances??

Shades of "the old days." 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Those targets look kinda small and far. Any idea of the distances??

8 to 12 yards for the pistol and 25 to 30 yards for the rifle. Those stars can be tricky to hit. 

 

We have people come shoot with us and occasionally joke that they have to actually use their sights when they come here. 

 

There's another club nearby that I haven't shot at yet but I hear they put the targets even further out. Though I don't know what size they are. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Shades of "the old days." 

True enough - this would dissuade my attendance much more than a lack of spotters.

 

If the targets were closer - they might gain enough shooters to fully staff the posse.

 

Or at minimum - closer targets would be easier to spot upon.

[Three Foot Johnson]

I knew a shooter once who would argue virtually every miss called on him by saying, "Two misses? Which ones?" The three spotters generally couldn't pin it down to, "3rd shot, second pistol, and 7th shot rifle", so he'd argue if they didn't know which shots were misses, they couldn't possibly be misses.

[Griff]

7 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I knew a shooter once who would argue virtually every miss called on him by saying, "Two misses? Which ones?" The three spotters generally couldn't pin it down to, "3rd shot, second pistol, and 7th shot rifle", so he'd argue if they didn't know which shots were misses, they couldn't possibly be misses.

And those are the type of folks that I like to hold my fingers up to and say, "well... first you missed this one, and then you missed this one... see... TWO!"  If'n I'm really feelin' froggy, I use each hand, but the middle finger of each!  But, then I'm also the TO that occasionally calls the next shooter to the line with, "Okay, NEXT VICTIM!"

[Idaho Gunslinger]

31 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

True enough - this would dissuade my attendance much more than a lack of spotters.

 

If the targets were closer - they might gain enough shooters to fully staff the posse.

 

Or at minimum - closer targets would be easier to spot upon.

Why is that? 

 

I've heard the argument on here that closer targets will make the middle of the pack guys feel like they are catching the top of the pack guys, but knowing this ruins the psychology for me and I generally am just competing with myself and maybe a couple guys I know shoot about the same as me each month. 

 

I've seen enough of your posts on here to notice that you probably know more about this sport than almost anyone else on here and you've said a lot of wise things. So I'm curious why having the targets a little further out would dissuade you.

 

You can still shoot pretty fast and get a clean match. We've got a few guys that will shoot in the teens at a match with closer, bigger targets and they will still shoot a clean match in the 25-35 seconds per stage here. It just adds some variety for them. 

[Yul Lose]

42 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

True enough - this would dissuade my attendance much more than a lack of spotters.

 

If the targets were closer - they might gain enough shooters to fully staff the posse.

 

Or at minimum - closer targets would be easier to spot upon.

 

45 minutes ago, BradyT88 said:

8 to 12 yards for the pistol and 25 to 30 yards for the rifle. Those stars can be tricky to hit. 

 

We have people come shoot with us and occasionally joke that they have to actually use their sights when they come here. 

 

There's another club nearby that I haven't shot at yet but I hear they put the targets even further out. Though I don't know what size they are. 

We had a club about 8 miles from my house with smaller, odd shaped targets set up further away like these and if anyone dared shoot a clean match the targets would be set farther out the next match. Very seldom shot their matches, ain’t my cup of tea. They’ve been closed down for about 4 years now, I wonder why? Got another club that think putting the odd shaped targets far away is a good idea too and they seldom have more than one short staffed posse, didn’t used to be that way and they’d have 3 big posses every match and they’d have a big turnout for their annual match too. They don’t have an annual match anymore, nobody wanted to shoot it.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I ain't answering for Creeker but I will kindly interject my 'thoughts' and opinion.

 

When targets are set up in a manner that dictates a shooter must adhere to a 'governed speed level',

it diminishes the fun level of the match because it leans more towards an 'accuracy' shoot 

more so than an 'action' shoot.

 

BUT, when a stage is designed that allows the individual shooter to perform more to their

'optimum performance' levels, then each shooter has the opportunity to shoot at their

optimum performance without the stage design PURPOSELY dictating a limit on their

performance and abilities.

 

This is part of the fun factor of SASS and CAS in that we each get to 'strut our stuff' within the

limits of 'our stuff'.   

 

Just my thoughts.

 

..........Widder

 

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

This is part of the fun factor of SASS and CAS in that we each get to 'strut our stuff' within the

limits of 'our stuff'.   

 

Just my thoughts.

 

..........Widder

 

I don't think "your stuff" has ever limited "your strut".

 

Speaking of the old days, I wrote a good old snake shooting in our match this past weekend. Fun times! In my opinion, trying to write a stage or set targets to make any particular group of people benefit, won't work. The top tier will be the top tier. Middle of the pack will be middle of the pack. The only thing that's going to change that is individual "want to" and practice.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

5 hours ago, BradyT88 said:

Why is that? 

 

I'm curious why having the targets a little further out would dissuade you.

 

It just adds some variety for them. 

Short answer:  

My sole purpose for attending a match is to enjoy it.  And I personally don't enjoy precision matches.

 

Long answer:

The top shooters are top shooters because they can shoot and shoot well - one does not place at the top without the ability to use their sights - just shooting quickly does not occur in a vacuum.

Remembering that speed requires the skill of QUICKLY acquiring sights and sight pictures - this same skillset impacts even more when the targets are small or further out.

All moving the targets out does is increase the size of the time gap between TOP and the next tier.

Second thing that smaller, more distant targets does is LESSEN the miss penalty and actually makes accuracy less important. 

As counterintuitive as that seems - I can explain; a miss penalty is not necessarily 5 seconds - the penalty for a miss is the DIFFERENCE between the time required by YOUR COMPETITION for a hit and the quickest time for you to fire a round.  Example - if you snap fire a round in 2/10's and your competitor takes 2 seconds to hit - your penalty is not actually 5 seconds but 3.2 seconds (the difference on the scorecard between between your shot/ miss with their shot/ hit).

And considering small target, further arrays lead to more misses across the board - this added time for aiming can cause a situation where one can literally "miss fast enough to win".  

Consider a 3 miss stage by our snap shooter vs a 2 miss stage by our two second aimer. 

3 misses equals 15.6 seconds on the scoresheet

2 misses equals 14 seconds of time on the scoresheet.

It doesn't take much to extrapolate that out to 4 misses, 5 misses, 6 misses over a match and see what happens. 

 

In a bigger closer match - the trigger time compresses and there is no opportunity to gain time via "aiming" delays.

This maximizes the impact of a miss as the impact is more evenly felt.

Also comparatively - 5 seconds tacked against a 20 second stage is a 25 percent penalty.

5 seconds against 50 seconds makes it only a 10 percent penalty.

The opportunity for the slower guys to run down the fast guys is much more accessible when the times are compressed - as each miss, bobble or stumble has a bigger impact.

 

The winner of a big close event has to be near perfect as the cost of a mistake is much greater.

 

To use a racing analogy - in a 500 mile race; you might overcome a bad start or bobbled gear change.

In a quarter mile - there is no margin for a like error.

 

I like to go fast.

 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Short answer:  

My sole purpose for attending a match is to enjoy it.  And I personally don't enjoy precision matches.

 

Long answer:

The top shooters are top shooters because they can shoot and shoot well - one does not place at the top without the ability to use their sights - just shooting quickly does not occur in a vacuum.

Remembering that speed requires the skill of QUICKLY acquiring sights and sight pictures - this same skillset impacts even more when the targets are small or further out.

All moving the targets out does is increase the size of the time gap between TOP and the next tier.

Second thing that smaller, more distant targets does is LESSEN the miss penalty and actually makes accuracy less important. 

As counterintuitive as that seems - I can explain; a miss penalty is not necessarily 5 seconds - the penalty for a miss is the DIFFERENCE between the time required by YOUR COMPETITION for a hit and the quickest time for you to fire a round.  Example - if you snap fire a round in 2/10's and your competitor takes 2 seconds to hit - your penalty is not actually 5 seconds but 3.2 seconds (the difference on the scorecard between between your shot/ miss with their shot/ hit).

And considering small target, further arrays lead to more misses across the board - this added time for aiming can cause a situation where one can literally "miss fast enough to win".  

Consider a 3 miss stage by our snap shooter vs a 2 miss stage by our two second aimer. 

3 misses equals 15.6 seconds on the scoresheet

2 misses equals 14 seconds of time on the scoresheet.

It doesn't take much to extrapolate that out to 4 misses, 5 misses, 6 misses over a match and see what happens. 

 

In a bigger closer match - the trigger time compresses and there is no opportunity to gain time via "aiming" delays.

This maximizes the impact of a miss as the impact is more evenly felt.

Also comparatively - 5 seconds tacked against a 20 second stage is a 25 percent penalty.

5 seconds against 50 seconds makes it only a 10 percent penalty.

The opportunity for the slower guys to run down the fast guys is much more accessible when the times are compressed - as each miss, bobble or stumble has a bigger impact.

 

The winner of a big close event has to be near perfect as the cost of a mistake is much greater.

 

To use a racing analogy - in a 500 mile race; you might overcome a bad start or bobbled gear change.

In a quarter mile - there is no margin for a like error.

 

I like to go fast.

 

I like that response and I learned something along the way about miss penalties. Thanks! The fast guys like Samuel Dunbin Hadley here can shoot most stages in the low to high 20's, but I think it would be pretty hard to get under 20 seconds on any stage. He won 4 different State Championship matches last year and did pretty well at this last EoT. 

 

The stage with the coyotes and stars is probably the hardest of the stages as far as target size goes. But in our Match Director's defense he won't bring the targets closer than the SASS minimums which are 7 yards for pistol and 13 for Rifle. The pistol are generally around the 7 yard limit and while I haven't actually measured I'd guess we could probably bring the rifle targets in a few yards on a most stages. 

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Couple of caveats:

A match director may set their match in any way they choose - it is NOT my place or ANYONE elses place to tell them they are wrong.

 

That being said -

First point: The Match Directors Guide is EXACTLY that; a guide, not a bible nor regulation - there is zero penalty or issue with (safe and reasonable) deviation from the guide.

 

Second point:  We are NOT in the shooting competition business; we are in the entertainment business.  Our "job" is to make the most smiles, grins and guffaws per participant possible.  There are plenty of "competitive" gun sports - there are very few that consist mostly of old men, require silly names and dress up.

As a match director - I never worried about "if" I could attract someone from IPSC or IDPA to cowboy - that's why I never cared if other shooting disciplines looked down their nose at our target sizes or distances.  My goal was to attract non shooters, casual shooters, shooters who had never competed before AND then entice them to bring their wives, children and grandchildren along.

I wrote my matches with the goal of making Grand Dames smile and Buckeroos laugh.  The top shooters can entertain themselves - they can find and create their own challenges; either by speed or creating a single lead splatter in the very center of the plate.  The top shooter will fight thru adversity; but new shooters, wives, children - frustrate them, make them feel slow or like they are impeding the posse or wasting ammo and they won't return.

When clubs talk about their "core" group; I always read that as, "These are the shooters that we were unable to chase away".  

Making matches simple and more accessible by utilizing closer, larger arrays makes for a more inviting shoot and ultimately broadens your clubs appeal.