Training for Spotter-Counters

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Seems like there would be value in some kind of short training pamphlet describing  how to do miss spotting-counting properly. 

The SHB has some information, but not in enough depth.  The RO classes and handbooks  have more, but unhappily, relatively few shooters (particularly new shooters) get exposed to those materials.  Yet everyone who enters a match  (even bigger matches)  is encouraged to perform the spotting duties, regardless of training, eyesight, or any other limitations -- even in bigger matches.  

Am I missing something?  

My experience is that Posse Leaders and T.O.s often don't pay close enough attention to spotter position or attention, or they watch sporadically. 

 

Nothing turns shooters off from returning to an event faster than poor quality spotting.  

 

Just a thought.  Is this a place where some more formal training focus would be helpful?  

 

[Hoss]

I encourage spotters to call what they saw. Nothing worse than having them look at others spotters fingers! Don’t bunch up. Get on opposite sides of stage if possible.  
 
For me, I need 1 positive indication of a hit

see the bullet hit

see the target wiggle 

see paint fly off target 

hear the CLANG

 

For Miss I need at least 2 indicators

no hit seen

no target wiggle

no Paint disturbed. 
no CLANG 

see dirt fly behind the target 

 

never allow lack of CLANG be only reason to call a miss. Many targets are dead. 

if another spotter calls an edge hit, as long as it’s plausible, I’ll go with the edger. 
 

if I got distracted (hit by splatter, distracted by anything, asked a question, sneeze, just lose focus for a minute I call it clean. Don’t be afraid to call clean or miss, no matter what other spotters say. 
 

To shooters. DON’T CALL YOUR OWN MISSES! Many time a shooter will miss and say dang (or worse!). Not your job to call misses. 
 

Lastly, if you see a miss or a penalty, call it. By not calling it you are not helping the shooter, you are hurting every other shooter at the match. 

 

 

[Itchy Trigger]

34 minutes ago, Hoss said:

For Miss I need at least 2 indicators
…

no CLANG 

…

never allow lack of CLANG be only reason to call a miss. Many targets are dead. 

One of my biggest frustrations is people that call hits and misses by clangs alone, while wearing ear protection! One of the most egregious cases, the other two spotters called 5 and 7 misses and I had to point out that it was the first shooter of the day and there were 9 very clear hits in the paint. Many targets are sound dead, especially with cowboy loads.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

I've been debating loading my loads hotter because there are times I swear I had less misses that were called. But maybe I'm wrong. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Stand hit - that's a miss!    Gotta see it.   Normally it sounds like a target hit, and shakes the target like a weak hit, too.  One of the harder things to spot correctly.   If you don't paint the stand when a hit shows up there, it becomes real hard to see the second one on a stand.  

 

good luck, GJ

[Idaho Gunslinger]

@Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

It's funny you say that because maybe that is what the miss is here.

I was going to add about the spotter training: I am fairly new to SASS but I'm young and have good eyes. But I watch videos like this and sometimes I struggle to find where he misses and I have the luxury of rewatching it over and over. I can't imagine gow hard it could be at EOT with the really good posses. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

So what do you folks think about a spotters manual or at least a training briefing at bigger matches?  

[Cholla]

26 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

So what do you folks think about a spotters manual or at least a training briefing at bigger matches?  

I would be in.

[Griff]

Spotting is simple... if you see or hear a hit, it's a hit;  if you think it's a hit, it's a hit;  if you think it's a miss, it's a hit;  unless you see clear evidence of a miss, it's a hit.

[Cholla]

1 hour ago, BradyT88 said:

@Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

It's funny you say that because maybe that is what the miss is here.

I was going to add about the spotter training: I am fairly new to SASS but I'm young and have good eyes. But I watch videos like this and sometimes I struggle to find where he misses and I have the luxury of rewatching it over and over. I can't imagine gow hard it could be at EOT with the really good posses. 

I don't see or hear a miss.

 

[One Gun Jimmy]

3 hours ago, BradyT88 said:

@Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

It's funny you say that because maybe that is what the miss is here.

I was going to add about the spotter training: I am fairly new to SASS but I'm young and have good eyes. But I watch videos like this and sometimes I struggle to find where he misses and I have the luxury of rewatching it over and over. I can't imagine gow hard it could be at EOT with the really good posses. 

I do not hear a miss, didn't see a miss...per the "think" it's a hit rule...no way I wouldn't have called this clean from what I see here.

 

Here is what I did in secret to certify my spotting ability.

 

My first match I stuck diligently to brass duty.

As the shooter went, I watched,  once done I made a silent call, then heard the spotters call as I picked up brass.

 

I never had a different call then the collective spotter tho I did miss one P.(wasn't really watching for that)

 

After a full match of brass duty and making silent calls, I felt just fine spotting in match two.

 

Why not give a pard a one stage "shadow" period with a known solid spotter? Then if they are a match to the collective call them good.

 

Seems to me, with an experienced shooter, after a full posse on one stage, you would know if a person could or could not be good enough for the tribunal.

 

Just an idea, I watched a guy at my second match, spotted with him in fact that called clear misses hits and a few hits misses...he was a shooter with many more matches then me I'm sure...its why there are three of you but I wouldn't want him doing a big match if I was shooting.

[Sedalia Dave]

4 hours ago, BradyT88 said:

@Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

It's funny you say that because maybe that is what the miss is here.

I was going to add about the spotter training: I am fairly new to SASS but I'm young and have good eyes. But I watch videos like this and sometimes I struggle to find where he misses and I have the luxury of rewatching it over and over. I can't imagine gow hard it could be at EOT with the really good posses. 

 

I played it in slo mo and counted 10 rifle hits and 10 pistols hits.

I'd like to know what the spotters called a miss.

[Sedalia Dave]

According to the youtube comments by The OTJ, the last shot, first pistol, was a miss.

 

Hard to tell from the video but maybe the shooter hit target 4 vice target 3 with that shot.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

While ANY further training is worthwhile - the major issue with spotters is NOT newness to the game.

The biggest issue comes from "seasoned shooters" who won't get their hind ends off their stools, won't end their conversation; spotters who don't take a level of pride in their own performances because it's "just a game".

Spotters that think they can get a pass on their effort and attention, "well, I gues that's why there are three spotters".

Spotters who are unwilling to "work" during the stage to provide their absolute best - by moving to find the best vantage point, by focusing on EVERY target and movement - by using their sense of hearing, their sight, their power of observation to provide the absolute best level of service to the shooter.

 

I am EMBARRASSED when I fail the shooter by losing focus or concentration.

There is a disturbing amount of spotters that feel spotting can be done with half effort and half focus while sitting at their guncarts discussing politics.

 

I have been a match director for many years - I have been a posse marshal at Winter Range - I have been a posse marshal at more annuals and monthlies than I can remember.

 

But I always told my shooters the EXACT SAME THING.

Not everybody standing here today came to this match with the expectation of winning - but everybody came here with the hope that they would perform at their very best.

And if the shooter is on the firing line giving their all - then, they DESERVE that same level of effort from their TO and their spotters.

If you find that you are incapable or unwilling to provide your very best for them - then hand off the timer; give up the spotting stick - because the shooter deseves better.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

4 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Stand hit - that's a miss!

 

I say hit. Some of the splatter from the round hitting that target stand hit the target. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

On a row of knock downs if I hit the stand and the target falls is it not a hit?

 

On a tombstone rack if I knock down the first plate and then hit it again causing the bullet to bounce off the fallen plate and hitting the plate behind it is it not a hit?

 

Again on a tombstone rack, if I hit the stand and a piece of the bullet bounces off and knocks down the third or fourth plate before knocking down the first or second plate is that not counted as a hit? 

[Bo B. Fetterman]

3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

While ANY further training is worthwhile - the major issue with spotters is NOT newness to the game.

The biggest issue comes from "seasoned shooters" who won't get their hind ends off their stools, won't end their conversation; spotters who don't take a level of pride in their own performances because it's "just a game".

Spotters that think they can get a pass on their effort and attention, "well, I gues that's why there are three spotters".

Spotters who are unwilling to "work" during the stage to provide their absolute best - by moving to find the best vantage point, by focusing on EVERY target and movement - by using their sense of hearing, their sight, their power of observation to provide the absolute best level of service to the shooter.

 

I am EMBARRASSED when I fail the shooter by losing focus or concentration.

There is a disturbing amount of spotters that feel spotting can be done with half effort and half focus while sitting at their guncarts discussing politics.

 

I have been a match director for many years - I have been a posse marshal at Winter Range - I have been a posse marshal at more annuals and monthlies than I can remember.

 

But I always told my shooters the EXACT SAME THING.

Not everybody standing here today came to this match with the expectation of winning - but everybody came here with the hope that they would perform at their very best.

And if the shooter is on the firing line giving their all - then, they DESERVE that same level of effort from their TO and their spotters.

If you find that you are incapable or unwilling to provide your very best for them - then hand off the timer; give up the spotting stick - because the shooter deseves better.

 

Fantastic post. I have never Sotted or RO'ed for SASS but the pressure to detect rimfire at distance and rifle at ELR I can relate to this at speed and the goal is the same just as you state.

 

[Hoss]

I is know a guy who always wants to count. He’s a good guy and wants to do right. But he does not trust himself. He looks to other spotters for their call befor making his. He has gotten better. Mid you are counting. Best not to hold fingers where other counters can see them! 

[Frontier Lone Rider]

I shoot the real black and at a larger match the target array was 1892, four targets close together.

 

After the third shot, I could not even see the targets with no wind (part of the challenge when shooting black) and the spotters said I had two misses.  I said you couldn't even see the targets, how did you call a miss?  One said they did not hear a clang.

 

I kept the two misses, but was not happy.

 

Lassiter says if you cannot see, cannot hear, or cannot stand, don't spot.  I can do two out of three, but my back says number three rules my spotting.

 

FLR

[Go West]

One reason not to have wimpy loads is that some spotters will give you misses you don't deserve.

If you spot, be in a position to see all targets.

Just because you heard a hit on metal doesn't mean it hit the correct target. Could be a stand or another target that has a trajectory close to the intended.

If the bullet hits the dirt or berm, was it because of a ricochet or was it a flat out miss?  Ideally, the consensus makes the right call.

If you spot for a black powder shooter, it sometimes helps to have a low or side perspective. If you are close to the shooter, you may not see as well.

If you are aware of an unreliable spotter, see if they can do other duties.

Spotting can be tiresome. Do your share and hand off your duties.

[Turkey Flats Jack]

A clear stand hit is a miss unless part of that bullet hits the target. Plate racks and etc that calls for them to go down as long as it goes down then the mission is accomplished and doesn't matter if you hit the dirt and the splatter knocks down the target. Jmo on that. 

Not many people are going to but a lot of effort into spotter training imo. I'm not saying it isn't a worthwhile task to offer it but I wouldn't expect a big turn out. 

On rare occasions that I'm distracted while spotting the shooter is clean. I didnt see a miss so can't call one. I generally hand off the spotting stick after that for the stage because I'm not doing the job properly. 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

6 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

According to the youtube comments by The OTJ, the last shot, first pistol, was a miss.

 

Hard to tell from the video but maybe the shooter hit target 4 vice target 3 with that shot.

I had the same problem so I asked him on YouTube where the miss was and I still can't see it. 

 

Watching several of his other shoots I can usually find the miss but not always on the first time through...

[Texas Jack Black]

 Nothing new  Has always been a problem.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

This problem only surfaced at the VERY FIRST SASS match and has been a circumstance ever since.  Training??  Training to SPOT??  It's a trick suggestion > > > > right??  If folks can't/don't pay attention at the shooters meeting, what makes anyone think they will attend "Spotter Training??"  gimmie a break.

 

PLUS ONE for Creeker.

[Griff]

4 hours ago, Hoss said:

I is know a guy who always wants to count. He’s a good guy and wants to do right. But he does not trust himself. He looks to other spotters for their call befor making his. He has gotten better. Mid you are counting. Best not to hold fingers where other counters can see them! 

Dammit, how am I supposed to keep track?  

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Hurry!!  Hurry!!  Hurry!!  Sign up NOW!!  Accepting applications for our next

 

SUPER 

HOT

INTENSE

TRAINING

 

Don't miss it!!

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

I'll add cap and ball with black powder. Pistols use pure lead. I've had many a miss called I knew I hit because the spotters didn't hear the clang or see the hit. Dead targets have caused me many a miss.

I try to shoot first so I have fresh paint.

No wind and rifle gets in trouble because the heard a clang but didn't see the hit or if it was shot correctly. P

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

41 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Hurry!!  Hurry!!  Hurry!!  Sign up NOW!!  Accepting applications for our next

 

SUPER 

HOT

INTENSE

TRAINING

 

Don't miss it!!

I stepped into that training once - the curriculum stinks.

Everyone just sitting around; sweating and grunting with a strained look on their faces.

Basically just flushing their time down the toilet.

Thats the kind of thing best bagged up tight and left at the creators doorstep.

Maybe set on fire for good measure.

In all honesty; I wouldn't wipe my butt with that training.

 

 

 

Just kidding...

Ultimately creating TRAINING is easy.  And admirable.

And new shooters are generally receptive to such - but getting that same information to and overcoming ingrained attitudes and laziness from existing shooters who already "know everything" will be more challenging.

 

I can provide ALL the information needed to be a competent or better spotter in 3 or 4 paragraphs - it would take most folks less than a minute to read.

The challenge is on the spotters themselves having the pride and impetus to put those 3 or 4 paragraphs into actual practice.

 

 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

15 hours ago, Cholla said:

I don't see or hear a miss.

 

I THINK it was the first rifle, do I'd call it clean. Being there might have easier and I am on a phone!

[Eyesa Horg]

Generally I don't get too disturbed when I'm called for a miss I think was hit of the spotters can tell me where/when or you hit the stand. Butttt, at a state match years ago I got called for a miss I was sure I hit. The big issue was it was the last pistol targets on the right and I also knocked down a shotgun target in the next bay over. One spotter called clean and pointed out the edger, the other 2 insisted that since the SG target over 30 feet to the right went down it was a miss. The TO would have freaked if I suddenly moved the pistol that far to the right. Would've been my first clean match, but nope!

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

18 hours ago, Hoss said:

I encourage spotters to call what they saw. Nothing worse than having them look at others spotters fingers! Don’t bunch up. Get on opposite sides of stage if possible.  
 
For me, I need 1 positive indication of a hit

see the bullet hit

see the target wiggle 

see paint fly off target 

hear the CLANG

 

For Miss I need at least 2 indicators

no hit seen

no target wiggle

no Paint disturbed. 
no CLANG 

see dirt fly behind the target 

 

never allow lack of CLANG be only reason to call a miss. Many targets are dead. 

if another spotter calls an edge hit, as long as it’s plausible, I’ll go with the edger. 
 

if I got distracted (hit by splatter, distracted by anything, asked a question, sneeze, just lose focus for a minute I call it clean. Don’t be afraid to call clean or miss, no matter what other spotters say. 
 

To shooters. DON’T CALL YOUR OWN MISSES! Many time a shooter will miss and say dang (or worse!). Not your job to call misses. 
 

Lastly, if you see a miss or a penalty, call it. By not calling it you are not helping the shooter, you are hurting every other shooter at the match. 

 

 

I disagree about calling the stage clean if you get distracted.  If you get distracted, then your input is no longer accurate and you should so state, let the final results come from the other two spotters.  If they have different numbers of misses, go with the lowest, benefit goes to the shooter.

[Hoss]

5 minutes ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

I disagree about calling the stage clean if you get distracted.  If you get distracted, then your input is no longer accurate and you should so state, let the final results come from the other two spotters.  If they have different numbers of misses, go with the lowest, benefit goes to the shooter.

That’s exactly what I do. I tell them I got distracted so not calling any misses I did not see. (Last match I got hit in eyebrow with big chunk of splatter. I missed about 5 shots before I got my act together. For those shots I called him clean as I did not see a miss)

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

19 hours ago, Griff said:

Spotting is simple... if you see or hear a hit, it's a hit;  if you think it's a hit, it's a hit;  if you think it's a miss, it's a hit;  unless you see clear evidence of a miss, it's a hit.

To a degree. It can be difficult to spot procedurals on round count and shooter’s choice where you have no idea how the shooter is going to shoot the stage. There are also some folks that can shoot faster than the spotters can see and they just give up hold up a fist and say clean. 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

When I am spotting I like to move with the shooter so I can see clearly the targets the shooter is engaging.  I will at times, when necessary, ask diligent brass pickers to not walk or stand in front of me.  I feel I am being paid big bucks to do the best job I possibly can for that shooter.  It just bothers me to see spotters sitting on a stool at the far left or right on a stage where there is multiple shooting positions, especially if they are shooting thru windows or doorways.  Give the shooter the same respect you would like to have when you are shooting.

[Hoss]

My knees are shot. OA is tough.  I pretty much have to get off my feet to give my knees a break every chance I get. I use a stool, try to find a place where I can see the targets. If I don’t have a good view I’ll stand while they are shooting. But many times I can see every target sitting 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

13 hours ago, Go West said:

...If you spot for a black powder shooter, it sometimes helps to have a low or side perspective. If you are close to the shooter, you may not see as well....

Definitely.  From the side is almost always easier to see the targets through the smoke than the shooter or anyone behind him can see.

3 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

To a degree. It can be difficult to spot procedurals on round count and shooter’s choice where you have no idea how the shooter is going to shoot the stage. There are also some folks that can shoot faster than the spotters can see and they just give up hold up a fist and say clean. 

Shooters love round count and I hate it if I'm spotting for a really fast shooter.  Sometimes, even if not round count but where the shooter can start from either end, similar thing.

 

I think one side effect of the targets getting so close is that the pistol shot and the clang are almost simultaneous, which also makes it harder to spot.

 

Today, I had a miss called on me on the first shot of a stage (pistol) that I was pretty darn sure I had hit.  But later on, I had a definite miss on the last shot of the stage (pistol), and they called it clean.  The T.O. said "Merry Christmas"