New Ruling: Leaving loading table?

[Yusta B.]

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

14 hours ago, Hoss said:

My guess is this would be for the chronic offenders. I’d think a one time deal would likely merit a warning. 

 

How would a TO at a major match on a posse of shooters from multiple clubs know which ones are "chronic offenders"?
Where in the rules is there any provision for giving a warning for a SDQ offense?

[Captain Bill Burt]

Let the countdown begin! I give an over under of 12:30 pm EST

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

3 hours ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Oh ... he was already DQ'ed before taking the first step towards the line ... (due to) not letting the person next to him (at the loading table) check his guns (LTO)!!

This has been "discussed" many times on here. Many clubs don't use LTO's or the shooter next to them to watch loading. 

If there is an LTO and the shooter is called to the firing line and the LTO says , 'I didn't see you load those guns' where is the rule making it a SDQ?  Info needed. Who's responsible? The LTO for not watching or the shooter?

[Hoss]

53 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

How would a TO at a major match on a posse of shooters from multiple clubs know which ones are "chronic offenders"?
Where in the rules is there any provision for giving a warning for a SDQ offense?

SHB #3. 

 

id be hard pressed to call a SDQ on a shooter who maybe inadvertently came to line before being officially called up on a first offense.  I’d warn him not to do so again. 

[Patagonia Pete]

28 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

This has been "discussed" many times on here. Many clubs don't use LTO's or the shooter next to them to watch loading. 

If there is an LTO and the shooter is called to the firing line and the LTO says , 'I didn't see you load those guns' where is the rule making it a SDQ?  Info needed. Who's responsible? The LTO for not watching or the shooter?

I haven't a clue. If there is an LTO ... then I don't think you should cock the hammer on your rifle until they call you to the line. 

Then you can say the LTO "said I was OK!!". 

[Totes Magoats]

10 minutes ago, Hoss said:

 

id be hard pressed to call a SDQ on a shooter who maybe inadvertently came to line before being officially called up on a first offense.  I’d warn him not to do so again. 

 

I see Hoss's point.  I TO at 95%+ of the matches I attend in my neck of the woods.  I can't remember a match where I didn't see this behavior at least once, most times more.  It's going to take a few SDQ's to get the rule in some folks memory.

 

 

 

Totes

[Singin' Sue 71615]

43 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

This has been "discussed" many times on here. Many clubs don't use LTO's or the shooter next to them to watch loading. 

If there is an LTO and the shooter is called to the firing line and the LTO says , 'I didn't see you load those guns' where is the rule making it a SDQ?  Info needed. Who's responsible? The LTO for not watching or the shooter?

Hmmmmm....are we losing grasp of 'personal responsibility'????

Where did this become a "let's count the ways we could earn a SDQ" from what the topic is about?

 

[Hoss]

Ok guess my question would be where would the penalty apply?

 

1) TO calls time, polls spotters, sends shooter to ULT  reporting to scorekeeper.  Sees next shooter already staging his guns

 

2) TO calls “next shooter” and sees shooter already standing in doorway. 
 

3) shooter is next, holsters pistols, picks up long guns and takes a step towards stage, waiting to be called 

 

4) shooter holsters pistols, picks up long guns, long gun butts resting on table, but clearly pointing down range, not breaking 170.

 

 

 

 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Doubt I am the only one but I will be one to admit, this thread is one for me to "grasp".  I believe in expediting and since most of my monthly clubs do not actually have XO or designated table, I often expedite myself if there is area between firing line and LT.  Brass is being picked up, shotgun targets set, etc so as on deck shooter I am near (not in way or at firing line, example-- LT is to left of step into building, I am at step).  From this thread I realize that I should not do this so will consider this a "no-no" from now on.  Sometimes even us old timers learn things.

 

I will stick to issue of OP and not comment on the issue of something happening to MY guns while I retrieve something from cart. This strikes me as  a little heavy in BS.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

1 minute ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Doubt I am the only one but I will be one to admit, this thread is one for me to "grasp".  I believe in expediting and since most of my monthly clubs do not actually have XO or designated table, I often expedite myself if there is area between firing line and LT.  Brass is being picked up, shotgun targets set, etc so as on deck shooter I am near (not in way or at firing line, example-- LT is to left of step into building, I am at step).  From this thread I realize that I should not do this so will consider this a "no-no" from now on.  Sometimes even us old timers learn things.

 

I will stick to issue of OP and not comment on the issue of something happening to MY guns while I retrieve something from cart. This strikes me as  a little heavy in BS.

I do love ya, you old timer!

See you soon!

Gosh, I think of all the years you shook your head at me!!

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

6 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

I do love ya, you old timer!

See you soon!

Gosh, I think of all the years you shook your head at me!!

I still do.   Before and after big hug.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

37 minutes ago, Totes Magoats said:

 

I see Hoss's point.  I TO at 95%+ of the matches I attend in my neck of the woods.  I can't remember a match where I didn't see this behavior at least once, most times more.  It's going to take a few SDQ's to get the rule in some folks memory.

 

 

 

Totes

I going to try to learn before hand.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

It isn't like this is the first time that this has been discussed.

 

Let us call up the way back machine to 2014:

 

 

 

[Patagonia Pete]

50 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

> snip <

Let us call up the way back machine to 2014:

> snip <

Go further ... further!!

 

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Yea but ya know darn well that Colts are waaaaay cooler than Roogers!!

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

2 hours ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Doubt I am the only one but I will be one to admit, this thread is one for me to "grasp".  I believe in expediting and since most of my monthly clubs do not actually have XO or designated table, I often expedite myself if there is area between firing line and LT.  Brass is being picked up, shotgun targets set, etc so as on deck shooter I am near (not in way or at firing line, example-- LT is to left of step into building, I am at step).  From this thread I realize that I should not do this so will consider this a "no-no" from now on.  Sometimes even us old timers learn things.

 

I will stick to issue of OP and not comment on the issue of something happening to MY guns while I retrieve something from cart. This strikes me as  a little heavy in BS.

I have often done the same.  However, note that the rule says "the designated loading area", not the loading table.  How far from the table does the "area" consist of?  Too subjective.

[Anvil Al #59168]

5 hours ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Doubt I am the only one but I will be one to admit, this thread is one for me to "grasp".  I believe in expediting and since most of my monthly clubs do not actually have XO or designated table, I often expedite myself if there is area between firing line and LT.  Brass is being picked up, shotgun targets set, etc so as on deck shooter I am near (not in way or at firing line, example-- LT is to left of step into building, I am at step).  From this thread I realize that I should not do this so will consider this a "no-no" from now on.  Sometimes even us old timers learn things.

 

I will stick to issue of OP and not comment on the issue of something happening to MY guns while I retrieve something from cart. This strikes me as  a little heavy in BS.

 

Billy. I am going to be sure and bring it up at our monthly matches for the next few months to make sure

everyone knows about it before we all head to State and Regional. t 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

28 minutes ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

 

Billy. I am going to be sure and bring it up at our monthly matches for the next few months to make sure

everyone knows about it before we all head to State and Regional. t 

good deal.  I plan to mention it to posse at EOT also.  Maybe talking about it will help myself adhere to it.  

[Singin' Sue 71615]

1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

good deal.  I plan to mention it to posse at EOT also.  Maybe talking about it will help myself adhere to it.  

At EOT ,you will have XO boxes, and the Posse Marshal should assign XO's to do that job that understand the duty.

 

[Matthew Duncan]

I stand at the loading table with my left fingers lightly resting on the butt of my rifle.   There I stand until the TO looks at me and yells “NEXT SHOOTER!”

 

I’ve had a few TOs that hadn’t call me look at me like, “What are you waiting for?  You’re next.”

 

 

[Singin' Sue 71615]

I stay an arms length from my loaded guns. 

Have I EVER put my loaded pistols by my loaded long guns and gone to my cart, yup...maybe twice in 15 yrs...but, I'm blessed...usually someone will go fetch what I need, so I don't leave my guns unattended!

[Joe LaFives #5481]

I have a video of me doing this very thing at EOT around 2014.  I did so for several reasons.  1) the walk from the table to the firing line is rather long.  Two the RO and another person were talking away.  3) There was no expediter.  4) The stage had been reset.

So I expedited myself and announced it as I walked up and staged my guns.  Perfectly save and reminded the RO and other that we needed to move along.  NOW I'm going to have to retrain myself and its just another reason why I'm less happy with the direction that the rules morphed into over the last five years. 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

4 hours ago, Singin&#x27; Sue 71615 said:

At EOT ,you will have XO boxes, and the Posse Marshal should assign XO's to do that job that understand the duty.

 

 

suspect so.......Guess I will just do that.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Interesting that the penalty for coming to the firing line with a cocked rifle, round in the chamber is the same as coming to the firing line without being called. I think moving with a live round under a cocked hammer is significantly more dangerous than walking to the firing line with guns in hand.

[Captain Bill Burt]

It's my opinion that a TO should be enforcing the rules as written, not as they would prefer they be written.  If you can't do that, you shouldn't be running the timer.  

 

I'm not sure I'm willing to give someone a SDQ for this infraction so I guess it's time for me to step away from being a TO.  I bet with some practice I can be really good at shagging brass though!

[Matthew Duncan]

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It's my opinion that a TO should be enforcing the rules as written, not as they would prefer they be written.  If you can't do that, you shouldn't be running the timer.  

 

I'm not sure I'm willing to give someone a SDQ for this infraction so I guess it's time for me to step away from being a TO.  I bet with some practice I can be really good at shagging brass though!

Enforcement of 10 MPH over the posted school zone speed limit at 3 pm is different then at 3 am.  It’s call Officer’s discretion.

 

I believe the TO would have similar discretion.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

I fail to see the significant need for this penalty assessment as we already have more than enough rules to cover any safety concerns regarding an early arrival (sweeping, 170, unsafe handling to name a few). 

We just keep adding more redundant rules and penalties that promote conflicts and hostilities. Nowhere does it actually define what exactly constitutes the "loading area". Does 1 step get me a DQ? 2 steps? 3 steps? Maybe we'll have to start roping it off or putting up electric fences. 

I firmly believe this situation could be handled by any competent TO, or if need be,  posse leader or match director without the need for adding more DQ paranoia. 

That being said, as an RO Instructor and match director, I'll add that if we've got a rule (even if I HATE it) I'll continue to advocate it's enforcement.

 

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:25 AM, Tn Tombstone said:

There are a few things that need to be mentioned here.

There are some clubs that do not allow you to leave the loading table with a loaded gun laying on it. You either unload your guns or you have someone get what you need out of our cart for you. Two clubs come to mind

If your guns are laying on the table and something happens at the table, those are your loaded guns laying there and you are still responsible for them. If they fall or sweep someone the call is on you.

A classic example of the believe that "You can never be to safe" based on the false idea that totally safe is possible.

 

Has the club considered the possibility of an earth quake and it's consequences?

 

What about lightning strikes?  More likely.

 

What are the rules for heath situations such as heart attacks, etc?

 

I don't want to be too hard on them because this is a fairly common fallacy.

 

The result often leads to adding rules that actually degrade safety.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

I always like Mike Rowe's expression.  "Safety Third".   The premise is that if Safety was truly first, we wouldn't drive cars, ride bikes, shoot, eat anything that was at all bad for us, go barefoot, leave the house, take baths or showers (sponge bath only) etc.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

I'll add that if we've got a rule ( even if I HATE it) I'll continue to advocate it's enforcement.

 

 

Thank you Beartrap.

Unhappy? Take the proper chanels to change it...but follow what rules we have.

[Hollifer A. Dollar]

On 2/7/2022 at 3:52 PM, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Unfortunately, yes.

Some posses 'pushed' so as to get done sooner, ect.

I have been called up by TO while folks were still setting targets and was told to "come on up, just hold your muzzles up."

 

I also don't care for the posse behind coming up with their guns, loading up for their stage...while our last shooter is still shooting!!!!

 

 

This is what PMs were told at the last 3 EoTs that I attended - call the next shooter when your target setters turn to walk back to the firing line & remind the shooter to keep their muzzles up until the range is clear.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

36 minutes ago, Hollifer A. Dollar said:

 

This is what PMs were told at the last 3 EoTs that I attended - call the next shooter when your target setters turn to walk back to the firing line & remind the shooter to keep their muzzles up until the range is clear.

Yes...and key is shooter called as setters are walking BACK. Not walking TO set targets.

Just my pet peeve.

Yes, we need to keep posse moving...but...

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

While I would probably have preferred to see this as a progressive penalty, MSV for the 1st offense, SDQ for the 2nd offense, and thus a MDQ for the 3rd offense, it is certainly the way I was taught locally, and the way I have seen it done most places.  Unless there is a designated expediting station, with someone designated to call you to it, you don't leave the loading table with loaded guns until called to the line by the TO.  One club I shot at recently even required that your pistols stay on the loading table until called to the line, then you could holster.

 

I'm OK with that, as long as it is clearly stated by the Posse Marshals or Match Director, or both, at the start of the match.  Different clubs, different safety requirements, many of which are mandated in the Host Club's safety rules.  If it let's me play the game, I can adjust as needed.

 

In my mind, this is all about making sure that the person responsible to run the stage, in our case the TO, is fully aware of the location of every person with a loaded gun.  They should be either at the loading table, on the firing line, or proceeding to the firing line under the TO's observation/instruction, the exception being movement to an expediting position under the observation of the expediter.  Anyone wandering around outside of that can present a problem.  I know it upsets me when I turn around to call the next shooter to the line and they are standing there staring me right in the face.

 

In a similar vein, how many times have you seen someone head for their cart instead of the un-loading table?  I've seen it, and I've even headed that way before catching myself or being yelled at by someone else.  It happens, especially as our group as a whole gets older.

 

We live in a very distracted world, where everyone has a million things churning through their head.  You would think that the only thing they are thinking about at the loading table is how to shoot the stage, but if that were the case, there would never be any procedurals.

 

 

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

1 hour ago, Singin&#x27; Sue 71615 said:

I'll add that if we've got a rule ( even if I HATE it) I'll continue to advocate it's enforcement.

 

 

Thank you Beartrap.

Unhappy? Take the proper chanels to change it...but follow what rules we have.

So, what exactly are the channels for changing a "CLARIFICATION"? This wasn't a rule CHANGE that theoretically would have required a TG vote. It is a now required major penalty decreed by the ROC or powers that be for an action that is, in my humble opinion, poorly defined. As I stated in my earlier post does 1 step get me? 2 steps? 3 steps?