Is it time to allow on the clock loading of repeating shotguns?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Another thread got me thinking.

Is it time to allow for the ON THE CLOCK full loading of the magazines of the 87 and 97?   I've always thought the way we treat said guns like glorified single shots is strange.

Yes, the rules currently say it's okay if the stage directions allow for it, but I think I've been to exactly one shoot that actually did that.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Sheesh.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

20 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Another thread got me thinking.

Is it time to allow for the ON THE CLOCK full loading of the magazines of the 87 and 97?   I've always thought the way we treat said guns like glorified single shots is strange.

Yes, the rules currently say it's okay if the stage directions allow for it, but I think I've been to exactly one shoot that actually did that.

 

Maybe there's a reason that (apparently?) very few matches allow doing so in spite of the allowance to do so?
The fact that you, personally, have only seen it done at "one shoot" does not mean that it isn't allowed elsewhere.

 

Ask your local Match Directors to allow stoking magazines on the clock and see how many shooters choose to do so.
 

[Griff]

PLEASE, PLEASE, make it a requirement.  I remember a time... when EVERYONE shooting a mdl '97 loaded their two rounds into the magazine and then fired.  I can't think of a single double barreled shooter that complained or even thought... "what an advantage..."  Quite the opposite in fact!  Even filling up the magazine for a 6 shot string of shotgun is not an advantage... I even had a guy during a cops vs cowboys match bet me legal tender that he could whip me... If I recall correctly his 1st shot coincided with my 6th from my Stoeger dbl.   So, yes please... make it a requirement... all those '97s will go back to be collector pieces.  

[Yul Lose]

A few matches around here allow it but it’s seldom done because, IMHO, it’s not any faster. I’ll do it occasionally if I’ve already had a miss or procedural but I don’t do it as a habit even though I could. I see no advantage over loading over the top. Now if it could be stoked at the loading table, absolutely, but I doubt that rule will be changed in my lifetime.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

3 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

A few matches around here allow it but it’s seldom done because, IMHO, it’s not any faster. I’ll do it occasionally if I’ve already had a miss or procedural but I don’t do it as a habit even though I could. I see no advantage over loading over the top. Now if it could be stoked at the loading table, absolutely, but I doubt that rule will be changed in my lifetime.

 

I don't see it ever being allowed to pre-load the shotgun like a rifle.   Nor should it be.

As far as to if it's quicker to load on the clock, or load one at a time, well, it probably is quicker to load one at a time.   I think it would be most popular among middle to bottom of the pack shooters who are shooting more for fun than anything else.   The 87 especially is VERY slow to load up on the clock, but dang, once you do so, it sure it fun to let 'er rip, so to speak.  

As to why don't more people write stages that allow for it?  Part of me thinks that stage writers just don't bother to do so.  I really think if the option was there, more people would at least give it a try, and a lot more folks would enjoy it once they did.

I could be wrong, but that's just me.

And this is just something to wonder about.   Much more important people that I will decide if this is something that should be considered. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

NO. (Short answer)

[Yul Lose]

It is much more fun to shoot a stoked 1897, no question, but loading it on the clock if you’re trying to be competitive just slows you down. It doesn’t have to be written into the stage, some places just allow it if you want to do it that way.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

3 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

It is much more fun to shoot a stoked 1897, no question, but loading it on the clock if you’re trying to be competitive just slows you down. It doesn’t have to be written into the stage, some places just allow it if you want to do it that way.

 

As I understand the rules, you can't do it unless the stage directions say it's okay.   The one place I went didn't write it into each stage, but under the "general" descriptions like "over the berm is an MDQ" and a few other standard comments, there was a "repeating shotguns may be stoked on the clock," line.

Almost everyone did it who could, and it was a lot of fun.  The club was somewhere in Pennsylvania.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

As I understand the rules, you can't do it unless the stage directions say it's okay.   The one place I went didn't write it into each stage, but under the "general" descriptions like "over the berm is an MDQ" and a few other standard comments, there was a "repeating shotguns may be stoked on the clock," line.

...

 

If the club/match conventions allow doing so on all stages, that fulfills the requirement of the rule.

Same as a declaration that "All props are expendable".

[Eyesa Horg]

Ellie will load 2 in her 97 if there is a pop up clay initiated by the first shot. She just can't load a second round fast enough yet to beat the clay to the ground. No one has ever had an issue with her doing this and others do it as well.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

12 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Ellie will load 2 in her 97 if there is a pop up clay initiated by the first shot. She just can't load a second round fast enough yet to beat the clay to the ground. No one has ever had an issue with her doing this and others do it as well.

 

Loading TWO rounds in ANY shotgun (except single shots) is specifically allowed in the SHB:

Quote

Pump and lever action shotguns are not allowed to load more than two live rounds at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description. In team events, shotguns may be loaded to their maximum magazine capacity.

SHB p.26

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

I will admit that I prefer to stoke my 10ga 87.  It is loads more fun.  But it is also slow.  Then again, launching the smoke from multiple 10ga shots doesn't help my speed at seeing the next target either.  But it is fun. 

 

I always check with the match director at the beginning of a match to see if stoking is allowable.  So far (all local shoots) I have not been told no.

[Stump Water]

Ok.  "For fun".   Works for me.

 

That said, I have seen exactly one shooter that could run a '97 loading two and be competitive with single loaders & SxS shooters.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Well, since they time me with a Sundial. I'll stoke when allowed.

I just wish we could start with a loaded SG.

OLG 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

"87/97's may be stoked on the clock." is the wording at the end of every stage of several clubs around here.  Only occasionally do I see anyone actually do it.  They are never the faster shooters.  They enjoy it.  I can see no reason not to give it blanket approval.

[Assassin]

There'd be a lot of penalties for moving with a closed, cocked sg. It would take some getting used to for most.

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

When allowed, I would do it with my '87 if there were four or more knockdowns. I always told the spotters to "smoke 'em if you got 'em" when I was loading the additional shells.

 

IT WAS DEFINITELY NOT A TIME ADVANTAGE!!!!

 

But it was soooo much fun!!!!

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Well, since they time me with a Sundial. I'll stoke when allowed.

I just wish we could start with a loaded SG.

OLG 

That would be the end of double barrel shotguns.

[Kulshan 20262]

5 hours ago, Stump Water said:

Ok.  "For fun".   Works for me.

 

That said, I have seen exactly one shooter that could run a '97 loading two and be competitive with single loaders & SxS shooters.

You did not get to see Evil Roy back in the day, or was that him you did see?

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

I shoot an SxS. Some clubs I shoot at allow loading 4 on the clock into a 97 on stationary stages, and some only allow loading a max of two at a time. It makes no difference to me. In all the years I've been a TO or MD I never saw it to be an advantage to anyone loading 4 on the clock as most SxS shooters already have their 4 shots fired before the 97 was loaded with 4 rounds. However those 97 shooters who have the one round at a time loading down pat are a sight to see on speed.

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

Yes.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

That would be the end of double barrel shotguns.

Not if you only loaded 2 rnds 

OLG 

[Captain Bill Burt]

11 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Not if you only loaded 2 rnds 

OLG 

Maybe I’m missing something. You’re saying you wish everyone was allowed to start with two rounds already loaded?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Maybe I’m missing something. You’re saying you wish everyone was allowed to start with two rounds already loaded?

Yes, they could be loaded when the SG is staged under T/O guidance. 

Pump and lever action SG chamber clear and action closed.

SxS staged open with rnds in chamber.

OLG 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Why?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

11 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Why?

Why not, something new in SASS to try.

Worked very well in W3G.

OLG 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Hmm.  There are safety issues with that in my opinion.   When we shoot our revolvers and rifle we have to cock the hammers first.  Assuming all loading procedures have been followed neither of those is going to fire solely due to pulling the trigger.  A loaded 97 or double is coming off the table ready to go with a pull of the trigger.  I can see a newer shooter easily shooting the table that way. 

[Sedalia Dave]

I shoot at two matches where stoking the SG is allowed every match. Some do it and some don't. It takes longer to stoke my 87 with 4 than it does to load two at a time but it is sure is a lot more fun as I can create lots of smoke and flames. 

[Null N. Void]

29 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Yes, they could be loaded when the SG is staged under T/O guidance. 

Pump and lever action SG chamber clear and action closed.

SxS staged open with rnds in chamber.

OLG 

As I understand it, the chamber on the 97 is empty, the SxS is open.   To get it to go bang, the 97 pump has to be cycled and the trigger pulled.  The SxS has to be closed and then the trigger pulled.  I don't see a safety problem.

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 minute ago, Null N. Void said:

As I understand it, the chamber on the 97 is empty, the SxS is open.   To get it to go bang, the 97 pump has to be cycled and the trigger pulled.  The SxS has to be closed and then the trigger pulled.  I don't see a safety problem.

You're right.  I missed that!

 

Need more coffee.

[Sedalia Dave]

There is a safety with a loading a SXS and staging it open. If it were to get bumped or fall you have really good odds of it closing and now you have a cocked and loaded firearm pointing in who knows what direction.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

SxS:  Open and Empty
97:  Closed and Empty
87:  Open and Empty

All are safe and ready to load.   I think that makes the most sense.  No matter what happens, the gun is empty until it is intentionally loaded.  I've always been jittery with the idea of "put one in the chamber, close the action, then stuff one in the magazine."  You're waving around a gun that is ready to fire.  Whenever I've got a popper target that's activated by a falling SG target, I grab my 97 by the pump and slide it closed as I am picking it up, and then load 2 in the tube.

Another fun thing I've tried is, load one in chamber.   Close action.  BANG, load two in the magazine, Cycle, BANG, Cycle, BANG, Open, Load, BANG.

First time I tried it, a lotta people were scratching their heads as to if it was legal.  I asked, "Where there ever more than 2 loaded rounds in the gun?"  
"Well, no..."
"So...?"

"No call, next shooter!"

 

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Yes, they could be loaded when the SG is staged under T/O guidance. 

Pump and lever action SG chamber clear and action closed.

SxS staged open with rnds in chamber.

OLG 

So they would be loaded off the clock? Didn't know you could do that. Never seen it done.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Yes, they could be loaded when the SG is staged under T/O guidance. 

Pump and lever action SG chamber clear and action closed.

SxS staged open with rnds in chamber.

 

34 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

So they would be loaded off the clock? Didn't know you could do that. Never seen it done.

 

You've probably never seen it done because it is against SASS safety conventions.
 

Quote

ALL SASS Safety conventions are not negotiable and shall never be overruled by match design or shooting course descriptions.

SHB p.13

Quote

 

Safety & Handling Conventions – Shotguns

- Shotguns are always staged open and empty and are loaded on the clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands.

 

SHB p.15