Chief Rick Posted June 7, 2021 Posted June 7, 2021 SDQ - if the TO/RO "STOPS" the gun from falling the penalty is to be assessed the same as if the gun had completely fallen and broken the 170..
Assassin Posted June 7, 2021 Posted June 7, 2021 TO should have let the rifle fall. It's on the shooter if they drop the long gun into the rack or place it in the rack. Because: all TO's are not equal.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 The "Newer" rules put into place a few years ago says SDQ if the rifle would have fallen and broken the 170 without the T.O. stopping it. Phantom
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 30 minutes ago, Assassin said: TO should have let the rifle fall. It's on the shooter if they drop the long gun into the rack or place it in the rack. Because: all TO's are not equal. If the TO can "reasonably and safely" stop a gun from falling - they should do so. It doesn't change or negate the penalty (and it shouldn't) - but regardless of why its falling; my fault, your fault, prop failure, etc - I will have some extremely choice words for anyone that simply stands there watching and allows my (or anyone eles) gun fall to the ground unchecked. I fully understand not everyone will have the skill or speed or ability to catch a gun and a person unable to catch or stop it holds no blame. And I dont expect anyone to harm theirself attempting to protect my toys. But to simply not do it "because thats on the shooter"? This isn't about the differing skill levels of the TO's but simply being a decent human being.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: If the TO can "reasonably and safely" stop a gun from falling - they should do so. It doesn't change or negate the penalty (and it shouldn't) - but regardless of why its falling; my fault, your fault, prop failure, etc - I will have some extremely choice words for anyone that simply stands there watching and allows my (or anyone eles) gun fall to the ground unchecked. I fully understand not everyone will have the skill or speed or ability to catch a gun and a person unable to catch or stop it holds no blame. And I dont expect anyone to harm theirself attempting to protect my toys. But to simply not do it "because thats on the shooter"? This isn't about the differing skill levels of the TO's but simply being a decent human being. While I agree...my experience has pushed me more to Assassin's opinion. T.O. on my posse saved a person's long gun from falling...oh it was definitely falling...and got to deal with hell afterwards from the shooter. It wasn't falling!!!! Okay, if it was falling, how did you know if was going to break the 170?!?!?!?! Fine!!!! But boy am I going to bad mouth y'all to everyone I know!!!!!! Screw it! Let the damn gun hit the ground. Maybe next time they'll be more careful. But yeah, I'll save the gun if the table, prop...whatever gives way. Outside of that at anything other than a monthly...nope! Phantom
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 I have seen and experienced all of the negative ramifications of trying to be a "good guy". But regardless of the outcome and attitude of the person I try to help - I still have to look at myself the next morning. Of course, my speed and ability next time could possibly be affected depending on whose gun is falling.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: I have seen and experienced all of the negative ramifications of trying to be a "good guy". But regardless of the outcome and attitude of the person I try to help - I still have to look at myself the next morning. Of course, my speed and ability next time could possibly be affected depending on whose gun is falling. Eggggzackly!!
J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 It's sort of hard to stay within arms length of shooter that is headed to shoot a "LOADED" firearm while the TO is catching or trying to catch a falling "Empty" firearm. IMHO its best to stay with the shooter and be watching the shooter than to be looking elsewhere at a falling firearm or anything else. JM
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 The 170 break is only relevant in a "slip & fall" situation. The rifle in the OP was in continuous motion and "headed to the ground" = DROPPED UNLOADED FIREARM SDQ
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The 170 break is only relevant in a "slip & fall" situation. The rifle in the OP was in continuous motion and "headed to the ground" = DROPPED UNLOADED FIREARM SDQ Yes...but some people will argue that this was a "Vertical Rack Slip & Fall" situation...or there was a momentary crease in the Space-Time Continuum...or...something...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Yes...but some people will argue that this was a "Vertical Rack Slip & Fall" situation...or there was a momentary crease in the Space-Time Continuum...or...something... And "some people" would lose that argument.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 13 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: And "some people" would lose that argument. Hey man, I'm not an expert on Space-Time continuum issues...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 23 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Hey man, I'm not an expert on Space-Time continuum issues... Did you call me?
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 1 minute ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said: Did you call me? Damn...I forgot your expertise, one of many, was in S/T Continuum Theorems...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Damn...I forgot your expertise, one of many, was in S/T Continuum Theorems... I worked very hard getting Sheldon up to speed on this.
Snakebite Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: While I agree...my experience has pushed me more to Assassin's opinion. T.O. on my posse saved a person's long gun from falling...oh it was definitely falling...and got to deal with hell afterwards from the shooter. It wasn't falling!!!! Okay, if it was falling, how did you know if was going to break the 170?!?!?!?! Fine!!!! But boy am I going to bad mouth y'all to everyone I know!!!!!! Screw it! Let the damn gun hit the ground. Maybe next time they'll be more careful. But yeah, I'll save the gun if the table, prop...whatever gives way. Outside of that at anything other than a monthly...nope! Phantom I certainly see your point, but I say let em Howl. If they are that stoopid I think most folks will see through them. IMO saving the Gun from falling (if it's not too much of a risk) is not being done just for the sake of the gun itself, it is for the "so-called" safety aspect of the situation, and it could be considered part of "Safely assisting the shooter through the course of fire". Snakebite
Captain Bill Burt Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 If the shooter is slinging guns around and one hits the ground that’s their problem. If they have ‘choice words’ for me, as TO, they can pick up additional penalties to go with the SDQ THEY already earned. We all have choices to make as TO. I’ve given this rule some thought and concluded the best thing I can do for a shooter in that situation is to do nothing. If I intervene, that locks in the penalty, and opens the door for a dispute about what might have happened had I stayed out of it. If I don’t intervene the gun may not fall, but if it does the call is clear. Of course in the moment there’s a decent chance I’ll instinctively try to catch it, hard not to.
Sedalia Dave Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 Everyone is assuming that the falling rifle is empty. What happens when it isn't? It is pretty well documented that if you slap the lever on a toggle link rifle closed there is a really good possibility that it the firing pin will have enough momentum to fire the cartridge. We have all seen rifles that have been re-staged with a round left in the gun.
Assassin Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 Actually, I would attempt to catch the falling gun. As the rules are written it's to no one's advantage, only to keep the gun from hitting the dirt. In 25 years I've saved quite a few shooters from being penalized. I've caught falling pistols and stuck them back in the shooters holster without them knowing. Since we've moved away from vertical staging there aren't as many dropped long guns.
Chief Rick Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Assassin said: Actually, I would attempt to catch the falling gun. As the rules are written it's to no one's advantage, only to keep the gun from hitting the dirt. In 25 years I've saved quite a few shooters from being penalized. I've caught falling pistols and stuck them back in the shooters holster without them knowing. Since we've moved away from vertical staging there aren't as many dropped long guns. I'm not following what you are saying. As the rules are currently written, if the RO/TO stops a firearm falling - it's a SDQ because it has to be "assumed" the gun would have fallen. If the RO/TO doesn't touch the gun and it falls, it's a SDQ, BUT if it doesn't fall it's no penalty.
Shooting Bull Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 19 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: I still have to look at myself the next morning. Dang, what did you do to earn THAT punishment?
Shooting Bull Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 19 hours ago, J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309 said: It's sort of hard to stay within arms length of shooter that is headed to shoot a "LOADED" firearm while the TO is catching or trying to catch a falling "Empty" firearm. IMHO its best to stay with the shooter and be watching the shooter than to be looking elsewhere at a falling firearm or anything else. JM I think that would require a split second risk assessment. Which situation would be more dangerous? A possibly loaded firearm laying on the ground or an unattended shooter? Each and every situation is going to be unique. This is why TOs get paid the big bucks.
Assassin Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, Chief Rick said: I'm not following what you are saying. As the rules are currently written, if the RO/TO stops a firearm falling - it's a SDQ because it has to be "assumed" the gun would fallen. If the RO/TO doesn't touch the gun and it falls, it's a SDQ, BUT if it doesn't fall it's no penalty. Chief, seems like the shooter gets a penalty if the guns falls or if the TO catches it. Might as well let it go and see how it lands. If it's a leaner and doesn't break the 170 what is the penalty? I'm pretty sure I was at one of those meetings and the discussions got pretty loud over this topic. Our conclusion was it's best to let gravity take its course. Not my first reaction.
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 33 minutes ago, Assassin said: Chief, seems like the shooter gets a penalty if the guns falls or if the TO catches it. Might as well let it go and see how it lands. If it's a leaner and doesn't break the 170 what is the penalty? I'm pretty sure I was at one of those meetings and the discussions got pretty loud over this topic. Our conclusion was it's best to let gravity take its course. Not my first reaction.
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 At Winter Range the Posse Marshal as a shooter was engaging rifle targets and I was running the timer. The rifle was to be made safe on the straw bail at that position. With 700+ shooters, straw bails become "well used" after awhile. The shooter finished the string and put the rifle down rather quickly and took off for the next position. The rifle slid backwards in the well worn grove of the previous shooters (In others words the bail was no longer flat on top) I caught the rifle before the butt came into contact with the ground and placed it safely on the straw bail and took off after the shooter. I gave the shooter a NO CALL due to prop failure. Three member of the peanut gallery complained to the match director and tried to get the call overturned. Without success. Part of the argument was that I was too fast in catching the rifle. Other TOs might not have caught it. I always thought it was one of the weakest arguments I had ever heard.
Rye Miles #13621 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 I just couldn’t let a perfectly good firearm fall, if I can save it I will every time!
Chief Rick Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Assassin said: Chief, seems like the shooter gets a penalty if the guns falls or if the TO catches it. Might as well let it go and see how it lands. If it's a leaner and doesn't break the 170 what is the penalty? I'm pretty sure I was at one of those meetings and the discussions got pretty loud over this topic. Our conclusion was it's best to let gravity take its course. Not my first reaction. I feel the same way. I just didn't comprehend that in the way you wrote it (what I quoted).
Ramblin Gambler Posted June 9, 2021 Posted June 9, 2021 17 hours ago, Chief Rick said: I feel the same way. I just didn't comprehend that in the way you wrote it (what I quoted). yeah it seems like he left out a word doesn't it? I wonder if he meant "Actually, I would NOT attempt to catch the falling gun. "
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 9, 2021 Posted June 9, 2021 4 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said: yeah it seems like he left out a word doesn't it? I wonder if he meant "Actually, I would NOT attempt to catch the falling gun. " He clarified his position...you really wanna get into a pissing match?
Kirk James Posted June 9, 2021 Posted June 9, 2021 Help me out. If an open empty rifle falls in a continuous motion it is a SDQ. If an open and empty rifle stops, then falls and breaks the 170 it is a SDQ. If the stopped rifle does not break the 170 when it falls it is a minor safety. If the TO interferes with the stop, is it the TO's call to determine the penalty based on their perception? My concern is this could determine the outcome of a match if I am right in my determination.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 9, 2021 Posted June 9, 2021 30 minutes ago, Kirk James said: Help me out. If an open empty rifle falls in a continuous motion it is a SDQ. If an open and empty rifle stops, then falls and breaks the 170 it is a SDQ. If the stopped rifle does not break the 170 when it falls it is a minor safety. If the TO interferes with the stop, is it the TO's call to determine the penalty based on their perception? My concern is this could determine the outcome of a match if I am right in my determination. Reasonable concern...that's why some advocate letting the gun fall...then other's believe that it's not Cowboy to let a perfectly good gun fall...ugh... My position...let it fall in all but monthlies. Phantom
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted June 10, 2021 Posted June 10, 2021 If a falling/dropped gun is a MAJOR safety concern, isn't stopping the gun from falling the SAFEST thing to do?
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 10, 2021 Posted June 10, 2021 24 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said: If a falling/dropped gun is a MAJOR safety concern, isn't stopping the gun from falling the SAFEST thing to do? Not if stopping it causes your finger to hit the trigger...while pointing at someone vitals... Phantom
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