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Creeker, SASS #43022

Cowboy Untouchables

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Dang, Im stupid.

(as I wade back jnto the fray)

 

I have made my living as a "fixer".

In multiple different corporate environments - my job often consisted of fixing other peoples mistakes

(deliberate, well intentioned or simply errors in judgement.  As well as fixing ingrained, but out of date decisions)

 

That's what I do now to make ends meet - I work with a small investment partner to identify business opportunities, purchase them and hopefully make them profitable (again or for the first time).

 

I say all of the above because; to fix, adjust or leave things the same - you have to evaluate every cost, action and return of every component with a critical eye. 

There cannot be anything off limits to examination.  No sacred cows.

Now obviously, you don't invest in a given commodity to make it unrecognizable from where you began.

And a scalpel is preferable to a chainsaw.

 

But in any endeavor, somethings work; somethings do not. 

So you cannot walk around with blinders either. 

You fix what doesn't work by cautious elimination or adjustment and you "carefully" look to improve the items that are working.

 

But you look at everything.

 

I simply wanted to see if there were any common themes among our shooters of their sacred cows or untouchable items to know best where to tread carefully.

 

Wouldn't stop me (or any reasonable manager) from examining - but might encourage me to pump the brakes on dramatically changing those items.

 

I don't assume that I'm going to get a call from Misty offering me the "King of SASS" position anytime soon (but Misty, you do have my number.  Lol) - but I assure you, someone will be looking at these things soon - Misty, a new board, a new owner, whomever - it would be nice if our opinions were available for review.

 

With some thoughtful consideration beyond,

"Dont touch my category" 

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The only sacred cows to me are to retain the minimum dress standards, pre 1899 firearms, and a mandatory UTO.

 

Everything else can be looked at to make it more efficient or more fun, that includes Frontiersman.  Now don't hate me because I shoot Frontiersman Gunfighter :D.

 

Another example, the 170° rule works great for long guns BUT not so much for short guns.  This is a case where the "Cone of safety", might be more realistic for drawing and holstering handguns from straight hang or crossdraws.  Does the rule need to change?  No.  Could it be looked at?  Most definitely yes.

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I think that ultimately we'll find that there are some small changes that can be made to expand the pool of people interested in SASS, but I don't think it will/would be a big expansion.  I think our best hope is raising awareness and I think Travis has the right idea there.  We need a bigger online presence. 

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5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

See, even our Rock-n Roll is old!!!

 

:mellow:

 

It may be old, but that just proves that it stands the test of time!! ‘Sides! This new stuff ain’t really rock!!

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Creeker, I almost asked if you were running for King of SASS.  But seriously, I understand and appreciate what you are trying to do.  It may well be undoable, but somebody has to take the bull by the horns and give it a try.  Keep me in mind for Prime Minister.  :) 

 

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Don't touch the top 16 at big matches.  Very exciting to watch or participate.

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24 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

Don't touch the top 16 at big matches.  Very exciting to watch or participate.

Top 20 was better.

 

;)

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On 7/9/2020 at 9:27 AM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The current BP rule it's disruptive, subjective and therefore rarely used. It needs reworking.

Hey Phantom, I see your point.  I’m a new Black Powder cartridge shooter-the real deal.  I really enjoy the boom; as well as, making lots of  smoke and lots of flame; it has that honest, authentic feel to it. 
 

 What do you suggest as far as reworking the rule? 

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On 7/8/2020 at 8:28 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Lots of ideas... Just like the other posts. But I thought this was about "untouchables"?

 

Here are a few:

 

No baseball caps

No Shady Bradys

 

Uhhhh....oh, no tee shirts.

 

There ya go!

 

Phantom

Good post and agree with everything, although I am ok with relaxing the dress code for 1 maybe 2 shoots, then buy some Cowboy duds ! No exceptions

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The untouchable to me:

 

Don't change the people!

 

I've participated in a few other shooting sports and there are no more down to earth, nicer folks like the ones I've met shooting CAS. We have the best people! never change that!

 

What would i like to see changed? One new category for new shooters that doesn't get scored. no "dress code", no gun restrictions (DA being fired SA only, any pump gun loaded one at a time, mossberg 500's and hi point pistols in WB :D), just let them have fun and "run what ya brung" while getting the proper gear together. obviously they wont be able to shoot non-sass guns for ever but give them time for the addiction to set in B)...

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18 hours ago, Assassin said:

I know this isn't an untouchable. We all have deep respect for Roy and Gene and all the cowboys of that era. However, I'm 61 and saw very few of those shows when I was growing up. We need to move forward. Let's hear some rock n' roll and get something exciting going. Good grief, the shoots have little energy in the air.

How can we make things exciting and get some high energy going like "happy hour" on Friday evening. Our matches are suffering from worn out themes,  no one cares about stories and starting lines. A total re-branding is needed, the old stuff worked 20 years back. Now we need to make things inviting for the next generations.

 

Or, let's stand at a table and shoot a rifle, take two steps laterally and shoot our pistols. Then, grab the shotgun and shoot 4 shotgun knock down targets. The boredom of the none movement crap wears me out. If your range doesn't allow movement, fix it or find another place to shoot. 

 

Assassin, I strongly disagree with this.  In fact, I go the other way.  I think we need more of it.  Standing there with your hands on your pistols saying, "Shooter ready." just doesn't get the blood pumping like staring down your target and snarling, "Draw, you son of a bitch!".  Seriously, if we're going to do away with start lines, we might as well do away with western themed props and western themed clothing and western themed guns.  Like I've already asked, what makes this cowboy action shooting?  What got YOU excited about it from the very first time you saw it?

 

Possum, the metal marsupial

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I think anything ought to be up for discussion.  But minute changes in one category isn't the answer.  Let's brainstorm in broad strokes.  

What is going to bring in more people in our target demographic.  Folks in their 30's and 40's who now have the disposable income to play the game, whatever that game is.

 

Will changing the firearms bring more people in?  I doubt it.   My "untouchable" would be the guns of the game.

Clothing?  A long-sleeve shirt and long pants?  Non-athletic shoes?  That's too hard?  No.  An "untouchable" for me would be the clothing minimum.  No one is forcing anybody into the "costume categories".

 

This is a thread about what  our "untouchables" are, but when we express them, others jump in and criticize posters because we have "untouchables"... make up you mind!  

 

 

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Skinner!!  You’re right!!  Some of the stories are entertaining. Others are educational.  The starting lines are one of those things that make this game unique and hearing the ad libs and such help to relax some of the tension!!  After all, IT’S A GAME!!!

 

Using an activity like attempting to lasso a cow or dropping a stick of dynamite in a well for a starting line is just as good and embodies “cowboy action” , something a cowboy would do.

 

A LOT of our members ENJOY these things!!

 

If you don’t enjoy the stories, walk off while they’re being read or told. If you don’t want to say a starting line or you’re not creative enough to make up your own, just go on and say, “shooter ready”!!  Nobody’s holding a gun to your head.  REMEMBER!! It’s a game!!

 

NOW!!  You can change any of this! I doubt that many of us will quit if you do. But I suspect that many will miss the atmosphere and playful interaction.

 

As to changing someone’s range or moving somewhere else to accommodate someone else’s idea of what a match should be, I’ll just say that I am happy just to have some place to go and shoot and hang out with folks who feel the same way!!

 

Remember!! IJAFG!!

 

 

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I'll tell you what. You guys ask for the changes you want. If you get them and I can live with them, fine. If I don't like them and quit, but you gain two, good for you. 

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1 hour ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

I'll tell you what. You guys ask for the changes you want. If you get them and I can live with them, fine. If I don't like them and quit, but you gain two, good for you. 

 

But, this thread is about what you NEVER want changed.  What are your "untouchables"?  

 

 

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Untouchables:

No prizes. SASS is an environment where there in zero motivation to be cut-throat and not help newbies. We need to keep it that way.

Costume categories. Some say clothing requirements drive folks away. Newbies I have spoken with are attracted by them. Where else can a guy go and not be ridiculed for dressing in chaps and bib-front shirts? I have heard women say their main reason of attending a shoot is so they can show off in their cowgirl/saloon girl/steampunk clothing.

Pre-1899 style/type firearms.

Starting lines. Yes, I actually enjoy them. Many times they make me laugh out loud. Doughslinger at Pine Ridge Regulators excelled at making me laugh... even when I was saying a line from Mary Poppins! (That's a pie crust promise; easily made and easily broken.)

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The only thing in SASS that is truly untouchable is seeing a SASS yearly financial statement. The only thing I never want changed is this forum. Where else can you get pissed off, and also have a good laugh from responses on just one question .

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16 hours ago, Palo Alto Kid said:

Hey Phantom, I see your point.  I’m a new Black Powder cartridge shooter-the real deal.  I really enjoy the boom; as well as, making lots of  smoke and lots of flame; it has that honest, authentic feel to it. 
 

 What do you suggest as far as reworking the rule? 

Pull bullets. Full case, good to go.

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I just got home after going to my friends ranch that's 46 miles from the closest pavement and no cell service. Great place.

 

In order to draw new shooters things must change. Sorry, that's how things are. The young potential shooters have no clue regarding the meaning of a John Wayne quote or story. It's unfortunate for us seasoned shooters. The young guys I've had out had no interest in western anything. They did like the guns and our style of shooting. They don't like hats or boots. Yeah, they'll buy into the minimums. Major changes need to happen in order to turn CAS around.

Keep catering to the same base and new memberships won't keep up with the current attrition rate. Everyone likes progress, no one likes change.

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Pull bullets. Full case, good to go.

I’m good with that. 

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Pull bullets. Full case, good to go.

 

Not the worst solution, but you’ll have the guy shooting .44WCF having to compete with someone shooting .32 S&W short!!

 

Many years ago, I shot with a lady shooting .32s that LITERALLY would fall short of pistol targets twenty feet away!!  She was shooting Lady’s Frontier Cartridge!

One of the other shooters asked her if she had any powder in her bullets.  The shots that reached the targets were traveling in an arc!!

 

I’ll admit to using a wad under my 180 or 200gr .45 Colt bullets. It helps keep the fouling down, so I’d likely be DQed by those standards!

 

I don’t have a better answer, but that one needs further modifications.

 

Maybe, pull bullets and have a minimum volume of powder?

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26 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

Not the worst solution, but you’ll have the guy shooting .44WCF having to compete with someone shooting .32 S&W short!!

 

Many years ago, I shot with a lady shooting .32s that LITERALLY would fall short of pistol targets twenty feet away!!  She was shooting Lady’s Frontier Cartridge!

One of the other shooters asked her if she had any powder in her bullets.  The shots that reached the targets were traveling in an arc!!

 

I’ll admit to using a wad under my 180 or 200gr .45 Colt bullets. It helps keep the fouling down, so I’d likely be DQed by those standards!

 

I don’t have a better answer, but that one needs further modifications.

 

Maybe, pull bullets and have a minimum volume of powder?

Nope, I disagree. Everyone has the same choices of firearms to choose from.

 

Phantom

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3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Nope, I disagree. Everyone has the same choices of firearms to choose from.

 

Phantom

 

That being the case, you’re saying everyone who shoots Black Powder will likely have to shoot the same or close to the same caliber??  Not really a sensible solution!  Really unfair to those whose whole setup is already geared to a certain combination of firearms and equipment.

 

You’re asking lots of shooters to either buy nearly all new equipment or abandon their chosen category, competitively.

 

A minimum volume of a specified powder or powders would make more sense.  Far fewer shooters would have to significantly alter their arsenals and their loading/reloading operations.

 

I’m not sure if there a more than a handful of Dark Siders that even shoot .32s. Perhaps some accommodation would need to be made for them, or you could require them to buy new/different guns!:rolleyes:

 

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2 hours ago, Assassin said:

I just got home after going to my friends ranch that's 46 miles from the closest pavement and no cell service. Great place.

 

In order to draw new shooters things must change. Sorry, that's how things are. The young potential shooters have no clue regarding the meaning of a John Wayne quote or story. It's unfortunate for us seasoned shooters. The young guys I've had out had no interest in western anything. They did like the guns and our style of shooting. They don't like hats or boots. Yeah, they'll buy into the minimums. Major changes need to happen in order to turn CAS around.

Keep catering to the same base and new memberships won't keep up with the current attrition rate. Everyone likes progress, no one likes change.

So should we proactively engage in guessing how to change the game and rules (to the point that many of us old guys get disillusioned and go home), betting on the come for new members that we only speculate might be out there?   

 

Why not ride with the game we all were attracted to, and just enjoy it.  Let the future shooters either do their own thing on the outside, or come into the fold and change CAS when and if they become able, interested, or in a position to drive the sport.   I don't think the "Build it and they will come" experimental approach will do anything except divide and diminish our present participation. 

 

All of the new shooters I know were attracted by the game, dress, guns, etc., that we already have.  If you're trying to appeal to the camo and semi-auto crowd, I think they already have the shooting sports that they like.  Homogenizing the sports by broadening and overlapping the respective rules is unlikely to attract anybody additional. 

 

Our strength is in our uniqueness.  When society changes to where the western nostalgia is gone, even our CAS name loses its meaning.  We can't do much about that, so enjoy what you have, while it is here.  If it gradually dies out, so be it.  Some local clubs will still keep their CAS ranges and shoot cowboy, I am sure, until the last of us finally become unable.  After that, who among us really cares?

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6 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

That being the case, you’re saying everyone who shoots Black Powder will likely have to shoot the same or close to the same caliber??  Not really a sensible solution!  Really unfair to those whose whole setup is already geared to a certain combination of firearms and equipment.

 

You’re asking lots of shooters to either buy nearly all new equipment or abandon their chosen category, competitively.

 

A minimum volume of a specified powder or powders would make more sense.  Far fewer shooters would have to significantly alter their arsenals and their loading/reloading operations.

 

I’m not sure if there a more than a handful of Dark Siders that even shoot .32s. Perhaps some accommodation would need to be made for them, or you could require them to buy new/different guns!:rolleyes:

 

Sass already has a min. Smoke standard of 1cc or 15 grains of black powder per the shooters handbook not sure if you can get 1cc of black in a 32, I know of some who use a .6cc lee dipper which is maybe  10 grains. We need to enforce standards. I used to enjoy shooting classic cowboy until some folks loaded their 45 colts to less than a mild 38 load.

Rafe

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25 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Sass already has a min. Smoke standard of 1cc or 15 grains of black powder per the shooters handbook not sure if you can get 1cc of black in a 32, I know of some who use a .6cc lee dipper which is maybe  10 grains. We need to enforce standards. I used to enjoy shooting classic cowboy until some folks loaded their 45 colts to less than a mild 38 load.

Rafe

 

I’m not sure either. My crude math skills give me a total volume for a .32 S&W short case of somewhere around 2cc. :unsure:

 

The rule is that you must produce smoke comparable to a .38 special loaded with 15gr/1cc of black powder.  The rule is subjective and relies on an opinion or consensus of opinion. I’ll probably never have to worry about it ‘cause when I shoot Black Powder, I hear complaints about my smoke from shooters in the next stage and three shooters later!! :o  :lol:

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13 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

So should we proactively engage in guessing how to change the game and rules (to the point that many of us old guys get disillusioned and go home), betting on the come for new members that we only speculate might be out there?   

 

Why not ride with the game we all were attracted to, and just enjoy it.  Let the future shooters either come into the fold and change it when and if they become able, interested, or in a position to drive the sport.   I don't think the "Build it and they will come" experimental approach will do anything except divide and diminish our present participation. 

 

All of the new shooters I know were attracted by the game, dress, guns, etc., that we already have.  If you're trying to appeal to the camo and semi-auto crowd, I think they already have the shooting sports that they like.  Homogenizing the sports by broadening and overlapping the respective rules is unlikely to attract anybody additional. 

 

Our strength is in our uniqueness.  When society changes to where the western nostalgia is gone, even our CAS name loses its meaning.  We can't do much about that, so enjoy what you have, while it is here.  If it gradually dies out, so be it.  Some local clubs will still keep their CAS ranges and shoot cowboy, I am sure, until the last of us finally become unable.  After that, who among us really cares?

I don't know the financial particulars of SASS. Just guessing here, SASS is not in a good financial situation. Would you rather shoot some form of CAS or not shoot at all? I started in June of 1996, things have changed. We had huge growth from 1999 to about 2005, then things leveled out. Sometime around 2008-2009 numbers started sliding downhill. Some shooters told me they were bored, others just lost interest, some died or got too old to play. Then, increased annual dues caused another exodus. New memberships didn't replace dropouts. Marketing was never implemented, no rebranding, few new members. 

Props, stories, elaborate facades, etc. takes much work to build, write, set up. There are not enough new members to volunteer and work. 

I have no intention of allowing camo or slow semi-auto guns into our game. A few changes are necessary in order to increase membership. 

Simplifying rules, more movement, easing dress codes, etc. is just a suggestion that may attract new members. The old way of doing things is no longer valid.

 

 

 

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Outside of the required lawyerese that’s needed to clarify rules that were simple until some began to pick them apart, the rules are STILL fairly simple.

 

A dress code that specifies a minimum of a long sleeve shirt of simple description, jeans or comparable trousers, and shoes that are not sneakers or running shoes couldn’t be much simpler.  You don’t even have to wear a hat!!

If you do wear a hat, there ARE specific guidelines.  It doesn’t get much simpler.

 

As far as the movement thing goes, many of these new shooters lack the training and experience to move safely with guns!  As I said previously, some clubs and ranges lack the facilities to allow a large amount of movement.  We need to make the best of what we have!!

 

I visited one of my home clubs for a mid-month match. There were around forty shooters. Considering that they were just getting back to shooting after the lockdown, that’s a good number. Of that number, there were four or five new shooters and a couple of them were under twenty years of age. As a former board member, I’m privy to information that most don’t see. The club officers told me that they were getting at least a couple of new shooters every month or so before the shutdown. I know that some of them won’t stay, but I see better than average interest if compared to what some of y’all are reporting.

 

 I’m of the opinion that we could do better with more nation wide publicity and better presentation!  Why not advertise our game as being like video games but with real guns and live ammunition!! Red Dead Redemption comes to mind!

 

If it were up to me, I’d sell that property in New Mexico, set up offices in a media rich city, and make End of Trail a roving match, held in locations across the country that could support camping and offer lodging accommodations!   With the proper promotion, you COULD find yourselves in a situation where suitable venues were vying for your services!!

 

Just a thought...

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3 hours ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Sass already has a min. Smoke standard of 1cc or 15 grains of black powder per the shooters handbook not sure if you can get 1cc of black in a 32, I know of some who use a .6cc lee dipper which is maybe  10 grains. We need to enforce standards. I used to enjoy shooting classic cowboy until some folks loaded their 45 colts to less than a mild 38 load.

Rafe

It's not the standard that's the problem. It's the enforcement of it...and it's subjective...and it's disruptive.

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Here is a different point........

 

I don’t believe that lowering CAS/SASS dress standards does ANYTHING, other than  diminishing and lowering the authenticity, and attraction of the sport.  
 

Allowing this feature of CAS be diminished, so some intentionally flagrant violators may show up flaunting their arrogance, simply because they (maybe) shoot well AND, then are allowed to elude being called on it by “give a s#i£ less”’ match officials, while other shooters conform to the dress code, IS DEAD WRONG.  
 

Those clowns usually don’t RESPECT, therefore, care, that much about CAS/SASS anyway, aside from winning a generic shooting competition.  They may practice and shoot well, but aside from that, the spirit and charm of CAS and SASS is meaningless to them.  
 

As I said, many of these people very often flaunt and even demean, the cowboy persona dress requirements, then pass that attitude on to their kids, friends and associates.  I say to them, “stay home!”.  I believe they should not be allowed to compete.  
 

I’m not going to listen to whining about not being able to afford appropriate dress, or listen to the “its-not-truer’s,” either.......the dress requirement applies to “children,” as well......even especially to children and teenagers, so the children and teens learn very early that proper cowboy dress is a requirement, not an option or an afterthought.  If anyone doesn’t want to, or decides they cannot, dress the part, then they should not be allowed to shoot or otherwise compete  Simple!  Clubs who take the dress requirement lightly or ignore it, should not be allowed to represent SASS.

 

Cat Brules

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7 minutes ago, Cat Brules said:

Those clowns usually don’t RESPECT, therefore, care, that much about CAS/SASS anyway, aside from winning a generic shooting competition.  They may practice and shoot well, but aside from that, the spirit and charm of CAS and SASS is meaningless to them.

Why do you assume that it's the folks that "Practice and shoot well"? And then accuse them of having lacking affinity to the "Spirit and charm of SASS/CAS...????

 

9 minutes ago, Cat Brules said:

As I said, many of these people very often flaunt and even demean, the cowboy persona dress requirements, then pass that attitude on to their kids, friends and associates.  I say to them, “stay home!”.  I believe they should not be allowed to compete.  

I don't understand. Do they Flaunt or Demean...?

 

And you obviously are a regular participant of the game...right? Where exactly is that? I'm sure we'll get the old Crickets and Tumbleweeds on this question.

 

:lol:

 

 

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11 hours ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Sass already has a min. Smoke standard of 1cc or 15 grains of black powder per the shooters handbook not sure if you can get 1cc of black in a 32, I know of some who use a .6cc lee dipper which is maybe  10 grains. We need to enforce standards. I used to enjoy shooting classic cowboy until some folks loaded their 45 colts to less than a mild 38 load.

Rafe

So you enjoying a match is dependent on how other cowboys load their ammo?

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Regarding .32s and the smoke standard, Capt. Baylor and I tested some rounds against the smoke standard.  Baylor later published the results in the Cowboy Chronicle.  My wife's .32 H&R mag rounds loaded with APP and 100 grain bullets met the smoke standard.  Those cases won't hold 1 cc but APP being a very smoky sub made the difference.  We also tested some commercial .32 S&W rounds loaded with Triple Seven.  These failed the smoke standard.  One can meet the smoke standard loading with less than 1 cc of APP.

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Even though its been years since I’ve been to a dedicated sass club monthly let alone state or regional, [My cas club is an unaffiliated sass club so we are not bound by SASS’ dictates.] but in keeping with the op’s question my untouchable would be safety rules but also the clothing requirements. I have always dressed the part and enjoyed doing it but have evolved from cowpoke and towney to movie characters and uniforms. I don’t see pre 1900 guns as untouchable and would love to see some double actions allowed. Enforce the minimum power rule or do away with it. It’s so uncowboy to see a healthy 250 lb grown man go to the line and after the beep hear tink-tink-tink-etc for 20 rds. And I’ve been on possees with the guys that Cat talks about, they paid their money to shoot not work, absolute minimum outfit, etc. The positive thing is that folks with that mindset get bored eventually and move on. I would simply say evolve or die out. While I don’t like change any more than anyone does variety is a good thing. 

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So you enjoying a match is dependent on how other cowboys load their ammo?

Nope! I have fun no matter what.

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