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Advantage of mouse farts?

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I shoot with people that shoot loads so light you hear a "putt", then a "dink" on hitting pistol targets.  With rifle targets set out a ways, it's "putt",  wait for it, wait for it, then a faint "dink".  Then I shoot with guys that shoot full compressed black powder 44WCF and 45Colt loads.  I shoot with guys that heavy load 45Colt with 255 grain bullets.   They often knock targets off the hangers. 

 

Me?  I shoot 1cc of BlackMZ under generally a 200 grain bullet.  These loads have plenty of smoke and power.   

 

I play my game and let others play theirs.

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We used to have a shooter who filled his 45 cases with Triple 7, then crunched in the bullet.  He thought it was hilarious when folks cried out in pain as his ammunition damaged their hearing.  When timing for him, I'd start the timer, then set it down and use both hands to cover my ears to avoid losing more hearing.  I must admit. I'm glad he found something else to do.

 

I'm sure the WB set the ammunition limits they did to include common factory loads.  And while that is the way it should be, most shooters soon realize that ammo is a little hotter, louder and does more damage to the targets than lighter loads would.

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It's a shame that shooting standard real black powder loads (not talking about maximum compressing or anything more then 19th century loads) in a cowboy shooting game, would warrant questioning someones character.  But apparently that's where we are these days. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

What if a club wants to make cheaper knockdown  targets that aren't as reliable for light loads because buying commercial knockdowns is to expensive? Are the shooters who shoot light loads expecting their SASS legal  ammo to knock them down or require the club to spend the money on better targets, lacking in character?

 

My wife shoots 78gn bullets driven in her . 32 cal Single Sixes by 2.4 gn of Titegroup at +/- 900ft/sec for a PF of +/- 70.

In four years of competition with those rounds, I have never seen her have a failure to knock down a KD target.  I'm not saying it cannot happen, just that it has not, as yet.   So for my $0.02 worth, the KD target discussion is less pertinent, unless somebody is shooting at or below the minimum PF required.  The KD targets are usually set by most clubs for a factory loaded 158 gn .38 cal bullet.  So with lighter loads, it does become important to use the sights and hit 'em high.  But IMHO, that's certainly doable for most of us, without too much of a time penalty.   But the premise that you need a big bore and heavy load to do the job is probably mostly folklore, again IMHO.  

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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4 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

It's a shame that shooting standard real black powder loads (not talking about maximum compressing or anything more then 19th century loads) in a cowboy shooting game, would warrant questioning someones character.  But apparently that's where we are these days. 

Where did you here this???

 

If you are referring to my post, please read it again. The "Character" question had to do with the effects on a club's targets.

 

Secondly, the purpose of the "19th Century loads" was not to shoot steel at 3-20ish yards...

 

Phantom

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What works for one guy may not work exactly the same for the next. Let the timer tell you, it doesn’t lie. I can tell you without a doubt that I shoot faster with 125s than I do with 105s, it’s not a huge difference, but it is consistently there for me. 

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Posted (edited)

imho

 

shooting duelist or gunfighter, lower recoil loads don’t work right.

Edited by WOLFY
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38 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

What works for one guy may not work exactly the same for the next. Let the timer tell you, it doesn’t lie. I can tell you without a doubt that I shoot faster with 125s than I do with 105s, it’s not a huge difference, but it is consistently there for me. 

Sometimes I end up with boxes of leftover odds and ends, usually mixed up between 105s (3.1 Titegroup) and 130s (3.3 Titegroup).  Rather than take time to separate them, I just shoot them up in practice, as is.  I honestly don't feel the difference between the two rounds, much less attribute faster times to one or the other.  Both are good loads.  Recoil wise, they feel similar enough that even with cylinders loaded mixed, I don't feel or hear much difference.  For me, it's just about shooting properly with good form and as smooth as possible.  There's much more time lost to transition variations than to load differences.  

 

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23 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

Did I tell you about the time I shot myself in the left testicle?

 

For some 10 years I had an FFL to do gunsmithing.  I had ordered for myself a retired Oklahoma Highway Patrol Smith & Wesson model 28 that l later converted to 45Colt.  But while I was waiting for the 50 target barrel to come in,  I loaded up some very light 38 Special loads.  I was enjoying plinking with the heavy big iron with the light load.

 

Anyway,  I set down with my back slumped back against a carport post and knees pulled up to rest my elbows to shoot a tight group.   I was shooting into a backstop made of seasoned oak timbers.  The bullets had just enough power to stick into the wood.  Except one. I seen it clearly come bouncing back at me ricocheting off the frozen yard but I was paralyzed to react. And thump, it hit me in the who-haws.  Instant pain followed by a quick examination.  Fortunately,  I was wearing insulated cover-alls. And the bullet didn't have enough stream left to even break a thread or leave a mark on the fabric.  But it left an impression on me that lasted a couple of days. 

 

There is absolutely no way you can read that first sentence and scroll past the rest of the post!

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8 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. 

Gee Gator, that sounds pretty condescending...

 

Phantom

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11 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Where did you here this???

 

If you are referring to my post, please read it again. The "Character" question had to do with the effects on a club's targets.

 

Secondly, the purpose of the "19th Century loads" was not to shoot steel at 3-20ish yards...

 

Phantom

Nope they were used by real Cowboys, and sometimes to shoot baddies at 3 yards and mostly at under 20 yards ...

And also to put critters down including Wolves , Cougars and Bears even those with bad tempers ....

And on occasion to shoot your own horse , being dragged to death being no fun ask to see so of my experience Marks ....

I too question why anyone's choice to use loads that Very closely match pre. 1900 loads would be called into question by anyone shooting this Cowboy Game ...

But this is just My take on things as a third generation Cowboy ....

 

And by the way Phantom when are ya headed up here to shoot ???

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Posted (edited)

The only time that I shoot .38s is when we do a BAM shoot and I wear my Span Am uniform, shoot a Krag rifle and use my 1892 Colt DAs with heel base bullets or my Colt New Service .38 spcl DA revolvers. Any other time I use .45s. If you have to game your loads to knock down a specific target imo that falls into a spirit of the game call. Aim high on it and hope or take the miss. 

Edited by Baltimore Ed

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On any other topic if a shooter is within the SASS rules it's been looked at as taboo to criticize that person because after all, it's SASS legal. But it's ok to criticize shooters , also being within SASS rules at the other end of the spectrum. 

 

Years ago SASS determined that there was a need for a new minimum pf for whatever reason. They didn't just educate the shooters. They made a rule. Why wouldn't you do the same on the upper end if there is actually a need?

 

Do you know what one other factor is that has changed over the years that contributes to soft targets getting concave? Larger and closer targets. If you have two targets made out of the same steel the bigger one will start to deform quicker because it's not as stiff as the smaller target.  Same as a shorter rifle barrel is stiffer then a longer barrel.

 

I apologize for the remark I made. I'm not immune from getting frustrated .

 

A shooter shouldn't  read the rules, follow the rules, and have to worry about doing something wrong.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

On any other topic if a shooter is within the SASS rules it's been looked at as taboo to criticize that person because after all, it's SASS legal. But it's ok to criticize shooters , also being within SASS rules at the other end of the spectrum. 

 

Years ago SASS determined that there was a need for a new minimum pf for whatever reason. They didn't just educate the shooters. They made a rule. Why wouldn't you do the same on the upper end if there is actually a need?

 

Do you know what one other factor is that has changed over the years that contributes to soft targets getting concave? Larger and closer targets. If you have two targets made out of the same steel the bigger one will start to deform quicker because it's not as stiff as the smaller target.  Same as a shorter rifle barrel is stiffer then a longer barrel.

 

I apologize for the remark I made. I'm not immune from getting frustrated .

 

A shooter shouldn't  read the rules, follow the rules, and have to worry about doing something wrong.

 

 

Although I like your comment I'm going to respectfully disagree.  Gamers have been, and in some circles still are, criticized despite being within the rules. They're also sneered at by some 'real smoke and flame cowboys' for their calibers of choice and attire.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Years ago SASS determined that there was a need for a new minimum pf for whatever reason. They didn't just educate the shooters. They made a rule. Why wouldn't you do the same on the upper end if there is actually a need?

I think there is a maximum on loads already. I'll try and find it in the rule book.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I think there is a maximum on loads already. I'll try and find it in the rule book.

It's 1000 fps for revolvers and 1400 fps for rifles ... pg 26 ...

Edited by Patagonia Pete
edit: but who cares about being called a gamer etc?? Used to get that every month in the Chronicle editorial anyhow ...
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3 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

It's 1000 fps for revolvers and 1400 fps for rifles ... pg 26 ...

Thanks,  ya'll beat me to it!!

 

This right from the shooter's handbook

The maximum velocities are 1000 fps for revolvers and 1400 fps for rifles. Ammunition that exceeds these velocities is considered illegal (this does not include ammunition that does not meet the power factor). Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are exempt from the power factor and velocity requirements

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21 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

On any other topic if a shooter is within the SASS rules it's been looked at as taboo to criticize that person because after all, it's SASS legal. But it's ok to criticize shooters , also being within SASS rules at the other end of the spectrum. 

 

Years ago SASS determined that there was a need for a new minimum pf for whatever reason. They didn't just educate the shooters. They made a rule. Why wouldn't you do the same on the upper end if there is actually a need?

 

Do you know what one other factor is that has changed over the years that contributes to soft targets getting concave? Larger and closer targets. If you have two targets made out of the same steel the bigger one will start to deform quicker because it's not as stiff as the smaller target.  Same as a shorter rifle barrel is stiffer then a longer barrel.

 

I apologize for the remark I made. I'm not immune from getting frustrated .

 

A shooter shouldn't  read the rules, follow the rules, and have to worry about doing something wrong.

 

 

It's not about following or violating rules.  It's only about choosing to save your club(s) members, including yourself, some cost.  Nobody will fault a shooter in any match for electing to use any SASS legal firearm or load.  Many use the larger calibers and heavier loads.  I don't think most of us even notice, except for the added noise, and when picking up brass, where I think we try harder to get all of the expensive cases back to their owners. 

 

But when targets need reconditioning or replacement, everyone has to share the major cost, which can easily be in the multiple tens of thousands, if dealing with AR steel.   If paying that cost is just a cost of doing business to you, it's OK with me too.  But Phantom's original point was one that deserved to be here in the discussion.  Target damage and associated costs rightfully should be at least  a consideration.  

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22 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I think there is a maximum on loads already. I'll try and find it in the rule book.

I don't know where that quote came from, but it wasn't me.

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25 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Capt. Bill Burt, It was from Smokin Gator, but you had quoted it. I quoted it from your comment instead of his by accident.

 

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Yes. I know that there are currently standards on the upper end. But they don't include a power factor. My point is that if the current limits are a problem, change it.  Don't complain about people following the rules.

Yes. It costs more for good steel targets. It also costs more for quality knockdown targets that will go down for SASS legal minimum loads. A dollar is a dollar spent on either. 

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2 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Nope they were used by real Cowboys, and sometimes to shoot baddies at 3 yards and mostly at under 20 yards ...

And also to put critters down including Wolves , Cougars and Bears even those with bad tempers ....

And on occasion to shoot your own horse , being dragged to death being no fun ask to see so of my experience Marks ....

I too question why anyone's choice to use loads that Very closely match pre. 1900 loads would be called into question by anyone shooting this Cowboy Game ...

But this is just My take on things as a third generation Cowboy ....

 

And by the way Phantom when are ya headed up here to shoot ???

 

Jabez Cowboy

Not any time soon I'm afraid.

 

But again, like Gator, please read my post regarding questioning folks that use heavy loads. If you are using heavy loads that you know are detrimental to the targets that YOUR club is using...then while you are being completely "Legal" in doing so, perhaps you should consider downloading a bit.

 

Phantom

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Whenever I read stuff on the wire, I learn a lot of new things. For example,,reading this thread I have learned that there are only two types of loads used in sass. Either mouse farts that bounce off paper targets, or hand cannon loads that obliterate steel. There’s no middle ground. Just like there are only two types of target distance: in your face targets that one can touch with a rifle barrel, or the ones so far out folks can’t see without a scope. 
 

And then I remember a phrase uttered a few times by a particular cowboy that goes “remember sass ain’t the wire and the wire ain’t sass”

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Please shooters who are using light loads near the minimum legal, consider this. You know you are forcing your club to purchase more expensive reliable knockdown targets instead of making cheaper homemade knockdowns that may not work as well. While it is legal to do so consider upping your loads a little.

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20 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Please shooters who are using light loads near the minimum legal, consider this. You know you are forcing your club to purchase more expensive reliable knockdown targets instead of making cheaper homemade knockdowns that may not work as well. While it is legal to do so consider upping your loads a little.

Horrible analogy Gator...horrible!

 

We are talking about whether one should consider their choice of loads based on whether their club's targets are adversely affected. What the hell is wrong with that????

 

Geeze...

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23 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Please shooters who are using light loads near the minimum legal, consider this. You know you are forcing your club to purchase more expensive reliable knockdown targets instead of making cheaper homemade knockdowns that may not work as well. While it is legal to do so consider upping your loads a little.

I've found that using the "correct" tool for any job usually gives me the best results.

 

For dinging steel - my 38spl. 105's do exactly the job they are designed for.

For knockdowns - my box of 38 spl. 158 grainers suit their purpose.

 

I have zero need to have a single round perform every duty that may arise.

 

I would use a different gun and caliber on squirrel than than I would for elk.

A different gun and caliber for benchrest than for shooting IPSC.

 

And if I realized that my one firearm and caliber were incompatible with a given game or situation - I would adjust my equipment; not demand the game change to suit me.

 

Specialized equipment is not a new concept - a drag car suits different purposes than an oval track car.

And while a NASCAR stocker might perform pretty well in a straight line - an NHRA purpose built car will do it better.

 

Throw a high speed left turn in at the end of the quarter mile and needs will change again.   

Make that high speed turn loose gravel and needs change yet again.

NHRA drag car, NASCAR stock car, WRC all wheel drive rally car - all fully competent and serious race equipment.

All possibly the wrong choice depending on the track before it. 

But fortunately, for racers - they know the track and requirements before the event arrives.

 

CAS is a game that can vary match to match from a high speed straight line "drag race" to a technical all turns road course. 

And since we don't know until we show up...

Any shooter expecting success - better show up with the equipment needed for the course requirements.

If you don't care about success - run what'cha brung and have fun - but don't whine about Target distance, knockdowns or "course requirements" if you didn't prepare for them.

 

The only caveat to run what you brung is if your equipment is illegal, dangerous to yourself or others - or damaging to the clubs equipment.

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I just started this game, a few things I figured out quickly. Number one is, you cowpokes and cowgirls are really, really good!! It’s amazing to watch. Number two was I was slow as flowing honey on a winter’s day. That’s OK, I can live with that.

 

I live in a shoebox with no storage and reloading cowboy loads isn’t ever going to be a viable option, which is fine because I simply don’t have the time to shoot more than one match a month anyway. I have been and will be buying my cowboy action ammo, I started with everything in 38/357,I’ve gotten more than a few comments that my ammo is “hot” , it was as I said before “cowboy action ammo” I can’t help that it was hot, it was well within the posted limits. 

 

I then decided that I wanted to try black powder, that ammo was procured Buffalo Arms, 38’s were not available but .357 were, not cheap but as I said I’m a once a month cowboy. No comments that the ammo was hot, just some maneuvering to make sure they didn’t follow me (we basically shoot in a box open on one end) FYI, the marlin I was using at the time liked the .357 OAL much better than the .38.

 

I’ve since decided two things, One, I like stinking up the joint, the black powder is here to stay, Two, I wasn’t feeling the .38/.357 firearms, I’m not talking recoil or feel, for me, I decided that cartridges available during the era we are emulating were more to my liking, not easier, certainly not cheaper, but better if only for myself. If 44 rim fire were around I’d use that but it ain’t so I’ll be shooting 38-40 and 44-40. If the spatter is a problem lets move further away, if the smoke is a problem, I got nothing for ya.

 

Wade

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If there really was a problem I'm sure SASS would address it. It doesn't  take much for loads to be perceived as "hot" at matches. Clubs use the same targets for rifles and revolvers with the rifle rounds hitting harder out of the rifle. But no one complains because the perception is not the same. They don't sound hot.  The targets don't know if the bullet came from a handgun or a rifle.

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Most of the Bounce Back problem is Caused by Hard cast Bullets shot at 500 to 800 FPS ...

And A Soft Cast bullet fired from a Big Bore caliber spreads the Impact over a lager area and over a longer time ....

And causes less Bounce Back ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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5 minutes ago, Wade Fargo said:

I just started this game, a few things I figured out quickly. Number one is, you cowpokes and cowgirls are really, really good!! It’s amazing to watch. Number two was I was slow as flowing honey on a winter’s day. That’s OK, I can live with that.

 

I live in a shoebox with no storage and reloading cowboy loads isn’t ever going to be a viable option, which is fine because I simply don’t have the time to shoot more than one match a month anyway. I have been and will be buying my cowboy action ammo, I started with everything in 38/357,I’ve gotten more than a few comments that my ammo is “hot” , it was as I said before “cowboy action ammo” I can’t help that it was hot, it was well within the posted limits. 

 

I then decided that I wanted to try black powder, that ammo was procured Buffalo Arms, 38’s were not available but .357 were, not cheap but as I said I’m a once a month cowboy. No comments that the ammo was hot, just some maneuvering to make sure they didn’t follow me (we basically shoot in a box open on one end) FYI, the marlin I was using at the time liked the .357 OAL much better than the .38.

 

I’ve since decided two things, One, I like stinking up the joint, the black powder is here to stay, Two, I wasn’t feeling the .38/.357 firearms, I’m not talking recoil or feel, for me, I decided that cartridges available during the era we are emulating were more to my liking, not easier, certainly not cheaper, but better if only for myself. If 44 rim fire were around I’d use that but it ain’t so I’ll be shooting 38-40 and 44-40. If the spatter is a problem lets move further away, if the smoke is a problem, I got nothing for ya.

 

Wade

 

Even though you are only shooting once a month I'd still recommend a small reloading press. You can mount it on top of a small rolling tool cabinet and push it in a closet when not in use. You can load BP shot shells by hand pretty easy as well. Store your powder and bullets in the bottom of the tool chest and a few primers in one of the drawers.  Any single stage press will do, even better a Lee Turret press.

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2 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

Do you know what one other factor is that has changed over the years that contributes to soft targets getting concave? Larger and closer targets. If you have two targets made out of the same steel the bigger one will start to deform quicker because it's not as stiff as the smaller target.  Same as a shorter rifle barrel is stiffer then a longer barrel.

 

 

Howdy Gator.

I don't dispute your point.  Actually, from my experience, I agree.

But another reason for those larger targets getting concaved is because they are hit more often than the smaller targets..... ;)

(some of those hits were mine.....:D)

 

And when clubs started realizing that new memberships were a requirement for success, some of the more immediate source for

those memberships were the Bunkhouse Boss's and kids.   And to keep the Bunkhouse Boss and kids happy, it sure helped a lot

if they got their fair share of hits.   Therefore, the need for big and close was met with open arms because more of us could 

run and gun and still get more hits.

AND, mixed with a strong period of growth where club participation grew, those same targets were being engaged by more

shooters, more often.

 

Its a 'round robin' effect.

 

Sorry, I don't have any actual statistical facts, but that has been my observance over the years.

 

..........Widder

 

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Widder. That's true. Most people like the big targets.  And people have accepted the higher cost that entails and aren't asking for smaller (stiffer) targets because it's less cost to the club. It's debatable though about the net gain of new shooters vs those that leave for various reasons as per the discussions of number of active members.

 

Thank you for acknowledging my mention of target size as a factor.

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Not any time soon I'm afraid.

 

But again, like Gator, please read my post regarding questioning folks that use heavy loads. If you are using heavy loads that you know are detrimental to the targets that YOUR club is using...then while you are being completely "Legal" in doing so, perhaps you should consider downloading a bit.

 

Phantom

Out of curiosity, how do we know this? I’m not a metallurgist or any kind of physical scientist, and I believe you are not either. So how do we know those “hot” bp rounds using soft 20/1 or 40/1 lead are more detrimental to targets than those hard cast 38’s? I’m not being a smart a$$ really. I actually want to know the answer to this. And if they are, how much so? 
 

 

19 minutes ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Most of the Bounce Back problem is Caused by Hard cast Bullets shot at 500 to 800 FPS ...

And A Soft Cast bullet fired from a Big Bore caliber spreads the Impact over a lager area and over a longer time ....

And causes less Bounce Back ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

yeah something like this. Also how do we know the big bore spreads the impact out? And how much? This is an interesting topic for me. 

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