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Null N. Void

Possible Squib in SG. How does TO handle?

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Please no insults.  Just let's discuss how to handle a '97 shooting knockdowns.  There probably is no absolutely right and wrong way to handle it.

 

SG "pooofs"!  Shot can be seen coming out the barrel but knockdown is not hit and knocked over.

 

Shooter quickly loads another round and finishes the stage without a problem.

 

The ejected SG hull had the wad stuck in it 90 percent of the way out but still stuck in the hull.  The hull and wad ejected as one piece.   However, no one knew this until after the stage was completed.

 

If you are running the timer do you:

 

  1.  Let it go?
  2. Insist the shooter put the SG down?

 

Remember, the TO has about a second to make a decision.  He/She doesn't know that the wad ejected with the hull.

 

Later there was some discussion about the wad not being enough of an obstruction to cause a problem if it exited the hull but stuck in the bore.  What do you think?

 

I will say that if I'm running the timer, I will yell "squib, put it down".  If the barrel was clear, then it's a reshoot.

 

What do you think?

 

Please have a good discussion.  Good thinking by shooters trying to do the best thing!

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I would say that you should call the squib and have the shooter put it down.  You have no idea how much shot is left sitting in the barrel, did hull split and wedge a portion in the chamber or barrel, or if the wad is stuck in the barrel.  Better safe than sorry.  Stop, check it out, if it's clear, offer a reshoot if warranted.

Edited by Smoky Pistols
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Posted (edited)

I'm of the same mind.  Stop! Move to next gun if shotgun wasn't last. If the barrel is clear shooter gets a reshoot, if not, not.

 

I have had a shooter with a double have that happen and I told them not to use the obstructed barrel again.  I can't remember which one it was but I said something like, don't load the right barrel!

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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Posted (edited)
Quote

In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm.  If the barrel is later determined to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot. 

SHB p.14

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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In my experience, a stuck wad will blow up a shotgun barrel EVERY TIME. We have a ton of discussion here about squibs in pistols and rifles; and pictures of stacked bullets in barrels that have been cut open; but the real risk comes from an obstructed shotgun barrel. Ask any skeet or trap shooter, everybody has heard of somebody who didn't check for a stuck wad.

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When I am the TO. I yell STOP-STOP-STOP as many times as needed.

If I'm wrong-so be it.

I will give a reshoot-

If the shooter has another squib of the same caliber/ga, the same match.

I tell'em to find other ammo if they still want to shoot.

My fear is a double charge is out there.

OLG

 

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If there is a squib the shooter will probably Thank You  ( my guy did)   If there is no squib, he gets a chance to save his stage on the reshoot.      GW

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Posted (edited)

I had a guy argue with me when I told him not to shoot his SG after a squib... Even after it he verified that the barrel was blocked.

 

Told him to set the gun down and continue or go to the unloading table.

 

It was a... fascinating... Experience... And I clarified for him afterwards how he's supposed to adhere to the RO's instructions. He thought he could shoot the obstruction out.

 

Oy...

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Null N. Void said:

Later there was some discussion about the wad not being enough of an obstruction to cause a problem if it exited the hull but stuck in the bore.  What do you think?

About 30 years ago, I blew 13" of the right side out of a Mossberg 12ga pump barrel, banana peel style, when a squib load left its  plastic wad in the barrel.  The shot cleared the barrel, so I assumed (wrongly) that the bore was clear.  But the wad remained lodged in the bore, even after the second shot burst the barrel.  So YES!  a retained wad certainly can cause an accident.  I wasn't injured, but the barrel had to be replaced.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I had a guy argue with me when I told him not to shoot his SG after a squib... Even after it he verified that the barrel was blocked.

 

Told him to set the gun down and continue or go to the unloading table.

 

It was a... fascinating... Experience... And I clarified for him afterwards how he's supposed to adhere to the RO's instructions. He thought he could shoot the obstruction out.

 

Oy...

 

It was a similar incident regarding R/P squibs (shooter habitually refused to stop, choosing to "shoot it out" instead) that brought about the following:
 

Quote

- Willful failure to comply with a “Cease Fire” or “Stop” command given by, and while under the positive control of the CRO/TO. 

SHB pp. 19, 23, 42 - MATCH DISQUALIFICATION
 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I had a guy argue with me when I told him not to shoot his SG after a squib... Even after it he verified that the barrel was blocked.

 

Told him to set the gun down and continue or go to the unloading table.

 

It was a... fascinating... Experience... And I clarified for him afterwards how he's supposed to adhere to the RO's instructions. He thought he could shoot the obstruction out.

 

Oy...

I bet I know who that was. I had the same issue. He wanted to just shoot it out. NOPE NOPE NOPE! 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I bet I know who that was. I had the same issue. He wanted to just shoot it out. NOPE NOPE NOPE! 

 

 

Nice guy...he was just a bit stubborn that day.

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Thank you all!  No shooting the wad out!  That's what I thought.  Knowing that people have blown up barrels with a stuck wad is what I needed to know so I can tell the shooter that yes, it does happen and put the SG down.

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WOW!  This thread is VERY eye opening.  I've been shooting shotguns for 52 years and have never even heard of a SG squib, much less seen one.  What would make a wad lodge in the barrel?  Is it a mistake in the reloading process?  Wrong size wad?  Please inform me, as this is something I've never thought of in all these years.

 

Thanks.

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Usually it's a primer that goes off but there was no powder in the reload.  Sometimes the shot and wad will come out.  Sometimes it's just the shot that rolls out and the wad stays in the bore.  

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10 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

Usually it's a primer that goes off but there was no powder in the reload.  Sometimes the shot and wad will come out.  Sometimes it's just the shot that rolls out and the wad stays in the bore.  

 

That's very interesting.  Usually we associate squibs with solid projectiles from brass casings with little or no powder.  The thought of insufficient or possibly contaminated powder causing a squib with a shotgun wad never occurred to me before.  Thanks again for bringing this up.

 

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Posted (edited)

A couple of years ago at a monthly match, I was at the ULT clearing my guns when the shooter had a PFFT with the shotgun.  He was about to load another round when both the UTO & I hollered "STOP STOP STOP" - the wad was stuck at the end of the barrel.  We could see it from the ULT (off to the side on the common firing line), but neither the shooter nor the TO could see the wad sticking out about a quarter of an inch.

 

Holler

Edited by Hollifer A. Dollar
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Note: It is possible for a double shooter to quickly determine the condition of the gun and declare it "clear," or not, while loading it.

 

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Better safe than sorry.

 

I remember once I had a (supposed) squib in one of my pistols.   Was told to stop so I did.  After the string was over, it was determined that there was no squib, just a strangely light load that seemed like one to the RO.   I was given a reshoot, and thanked the guy for being safety minded. 

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Shotgun squibs can happen due to a poor crimp that allows shot to leak out,  oftentimes while in shooters belt.  in the heat of the moment they dont notice the light shell. the lack of resistance to the powder cause a weak detonation, and the wad may not clear the barrel. 

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I must be naive, can't imagine that any discussion would be necessary... ;)

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May I assume that squibs are not common with factory loads?
I shoot the Win AA light loads.

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35 minutes ago, bgavin said:

May I assume that squibs are not common with factory loads?
I shoot the Win AA light loads.

But they can happen!!!!!!!

 

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Please also don't forget the shooter CAN NOT continue using the other unobstructed barrel in a side-by-side. I have had many shooters argue with me over that...

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19 minutes ago, Rustler, SASS #33316 said:

Please also don't forget the shooter CAN NOT continue using the other unobstructed barrel in a side-by-side. I have had many shooters argue with me over that...

Why not? 

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8 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Why not? 

Because in the heat of the moment when you are defending the homestead - muscle memory kicks in and you will try and load two and then the fireworks go off... 

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I disagree.  If I can see daylight down one barrel I'm going to let them use that barrel.  If they load two I'm going to stop them.  Pretty simple.  There is no rule that says they can't continue with only one barrel.  It might be valid for you to say they shouldn't continue, though I disagree with that, but it certainly isn't true that they CAN'T continue.  If you disagree, please cite the rule.

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1 hour ago, Rustler, SASS #33316 said:

Because in the heat of the moment when you are defending the homestead - muscle memory kicks in and you will try and load two and then the fireworks go off... 

 

But this ain't "the heat of the moment".  I wouldn't be defending the homestead with a side by side anyway.

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9 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

 

But this ain't "the heat of the moment".  I wouldn't be defending the homestead with a side by side anyway.

I'm with you on that Marshal.  I would likely go with the Mossberg 930.  It did fine the last time I had to call it into duty.

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RO-I Manual, Page 24, Squib Load

 

Procedure for handling a squib load:

  • Stop Firing Immediately
  • Unload the Gun - make sure the chamber(s) is empty

There is no rule that says use the other barrel and there is no rule that says you can't. But at my range (call it a local range rule if you want) I would consider that unsafe gun handling and not allow it. If you insisted on continuing it would be a SDQ.

 

Do I really need to explain why it is unsafe?

 

Thanks -

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, bgavin said:

May I assume that squibs are not common with factory loads?

Recently in our monthly matches, we've been seeing some factory load Squibs and misfires.  Sorry I don't know all the brands involved (Herters was one of them) but it does happen.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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2 hours ago, Rustler, SASS #33316 said:

 

There is no rule that says use the other barrel and there is no rule that says you can't. But at my range (call it a local range rule if you want) I would consider that unsafe gun handling and not allow it. If you insisted on continuing it would be a SDQ.

 

Do I really need to explain why it is unsafe?

 

Thanks -

Yes... please explain why it is unsafe to load and fire a properly sized shot shel thru an UNobstructed barrel.  Not your opinion as to what could, might, possibly or otherwise happen in a speculative manner.  "Facts, just the facts, ma'am," to quote my favorite detective.

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1. First, in what situation would a TO witness a squib and decide NOT to take action immediately -- either STOP, or make the firearm safe? And if STOP is called, isn't that run on the stage done? A reshoot is possible if the TO was wrong, of course.

 

2. Next, per SHB p. 14, if there is a squib, there is no 'check the barrel'. It is 'make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm'. How would 'check the barrel and let the shooter proceed' look in practice? If you stop the shooter, isn't the stage done? It's not as if you can call 'time out' in the stage to check the barrel.

 

3. Finally, once the stage is done, removing the offending wad is just a matter of running a rod down the barrel (I have used a car's radio antennae in a pinch). Why continue with an obstructed barrel if it can be cleared?

 

What would be the logic in allowing a shooter to continue with a gun with a known safety issue? Money's not on the line, we're not defending freedom -- we don't even let people move and shoot at the same time. In letting a shooter continue with one obstructed barrel, you're depending on someone who's shooting routine has been rattled to overcome their established muscle memory and avoid loading the obstructed barrel while they're juggling the sweeps, the shooting order, etc. Some people could handle it, some people who could't. Following the SHB, there is no judgement for who is who.

 

And if you decide to let the shooter continue with one obstructed barrel, as a TO -- would you stand just as close to the shooter as you normally would?

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Posted (edited)

Ozark Huckleberry understands it perfectly.

 

Yes it is "safe" to use the other barrel until it ain't.... On the off chance that a shell is put into the obstructed barrel it is boom time!

Edited by Rustler, SASS #33316

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3 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

1. First, in what situation would a TO witness a squib and decide NOT to take action immediately -- either STOP, or make the firearm safe? And if STOP is called, isn't that run on the stage done? A reshoot is possible if the TO was wrong, of course.

 

2. Next, per SHB p. 14, if there is a squib, there is no 'check the barrel'. It is 'make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm'. How would 'check the barrel and let the shooter proceed' look in practice? If you stop the shooter, isn't the stage done? It's not as if you can call 'time out' in the stage to check the barrel.

 

3. Finally, once the stage is done, removing the offending wad is just a matter of running a rod down the barrel (I have used a car's radio antennae in a pinch). Why continue with an obstructed barrel if it can be cleared?

 

What would be the logic in allowing a shooter to continue with a gun with a known safety issue? Money's not on the line, we're not defending freedom -- we don't even let people move and shoot at the same time. In letting a shooter continue with one obstructed barrel, you're depending on someone who's shooting routine has been rattled to overcome their established muscle memory and avoid loading the obstructed barrel while they're juggling the sweeps, the shooting order, etc. Some people could handle it, some people who could't. Following the SHB, there is no judgement for who is who.

 

And if you decide to let the shooter continue with one obstructed barrel, as a TO -- would you stand just as close to the shooter as you normally would?

1. and 2. I've had it happen (one barrel obstructed the other not). Shooter fired both barrels, I thought one was a squib, he shucked and I could see daylight down one barrel and not down the other.  No need to stop him, he had a barrel to use, so I told him not to load the obstructed one, and he didn't.  He loaded one at a time and picked up the remaining three targets. It was slow, but he's in his eighties, I don't think he cared.  The firearm was safe, in the unobstructed barrel.

 

The logic is if you stop the shooter they have to eat the misses.  The known safety issue is easily dealt with, don't load that barrel.  If, as you said, they're rattled and load both then you stop them.  It's not like they're shooting a 10 round rifle string in 3 seconds and their isn't time to stop them.  They're pulling shotgun shells, either one to two, easy to see.  If you're over their shoulder where you belong you're looking right at the action.  Yeah, I didn't move from where I was standing, I just watched to be sure he only loaded one each time and it was in the right barrel.

 

BTW, I think this is an issue worth having a discussion about, people certainly may disagree. 

 

I don't think it's an issue on which Rustler can authoritatively declare you can't do it.

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