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Possible Squib in SG. How does TO handle?


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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

Sadly, that one was one of the newfangled metal insulated posts. Just so you know, getting mad and pissing on a lawnmower that aint running right is no better.:ph34r:

I wanna hear this story.

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

Sadly, that one was one of the newfangled metal insulated posts. Just so you know, getting mad and pissing on a lawnmower that aint running right is no better.:ph34r:

 

I bet you own 3 Weedeaters:

One to use for spare parts, one to trim and cut down weeds, and one to 'P' on.

 

:lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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Perhaps the best answer is to allow a reshoot any time a shooter is directed to STOP by the T. O. because of a known or suspected squib, or hand-fire.    No need to Make Safe and go to the next gun, no need to ruin anybody's clean match, or deliberate anything on the firing line or under the clock.  Just stop, unload, remove the squib, inspect the barrel by the ULO, reload, and return to go again, with any prior penalties carried forward, like any other reshoot.  

 

That eliminates the safety risks, gives the benefit of any doubt to the shooter, errs on the side of safety, and equalized any presumed competitive advantages afforded by running a gun with two barrels v. one -- all SGs would be treated equally.   

 

It would occasionally slow down a stage, but that is the only risk I can see.   To handle this any other way seems to unduly complicate the rules, and to include some level of unwanted risk of injury.  

Just my thoughts. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Perhaps the best answer is to allow a reshoot any time a shooter is directed to STOP by the T. O. because of a known or suspected squib, or hand-fire.    No need to Make Safe and go to the next gun, no need to ruin anybody's clean match, or deliberate anything on the firing line or under the clock.  Just stop, unload, remove the squib, inspect the barrel by the ULO, reload, and return to go again, with any prior penalties carried forward, like any other reshoot.  

 

That eliminates the safety risks, gives the benefit of any doubt to the shooter, errs on the side of safety, and equalized any presumed competitive advantages afforded by running a gun with two barrels v. one -- all SGs would be treated equally.   

 

It would occasionally slow down a stage, but that is the only risk I can see.   To handle this any other way seems to unduly complicate the rules, and to include some level of unwanted risk of injury.  

Just my thoughts. 

 

Oh hell no!

 

Award someone a reshoot because of a bad round????

 

Please...go out and shoot more. It'll bring harmony to this world.

 

Phantom

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5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Perhaps the best answer is to allow a reshoot any time a shooter is directed to STOP by the T. O. because of a known or suspected squib, or hand-fire.    No need to Make Safe and go to the next gun, no need to ruin anybody's clean match, or deliberate anything on the firing line or under the clock.  Just stop, unload, remove the squib, inspect the barrel by the ULO, reload, and return to go again, with any prior penalties carried forward, like any other reshoot.  

 

That eliminates the safety risks, gives the benefit of any doubt to the shooter, errs on the side of safety, and equalized any presumed competitive advantages afforded by running a gun with two barrels v. one -- all SGs would be treated equally.   

 

It would occasionally slow down a stage, but that is the only risk I can see.   To handle this any other way seems to unduly complicate the rules, and to include some level of unwanted risk of injury.  

Just my thoughts. 

 

Except it would potentially introduce a TO yelling stop if their buddy is having a particularly bad stage. I've never seen such bad behavior, but have heard of it and it will happen.

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Except it would potentially introduce a TO yelling stop if their buddy is having a particularly bad stage. I've never seen such bad behavior, but have heard of it and it will happen.

But somehow they would have to invent a squib - - right? 

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Nope

Just now, Dusty Devil Dale said:

But somehow they would have to invent a squib - - right? 

Nope, you said ANY time. Pretty easy for someone to say "STOP, I thought he/she had a squib". 

 

This rule is fine just like it is,  IMO. 

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1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

But somehow they would have to invent a squib - - right? 

 Unless they kept one handy on their shotgun belt just in case they had a bad stage. 

I dont expect that from a cowboy shooter but its possible.

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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 Unless they kept one handy on their shotgun belt just in case they had a bad stage. 

I dont expect that from a cowboy shooter but its possible.

Oh the things that have and do happen...if only folks knew...

 

:ph34r:

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5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

But somehow they would have to invent a squib - - right? 

 

For example.

 

Phantom misses his holster the 1st time and takes a couple seconds to get it right. Then fumbles his shotshells losing another couple seconds. Captain Bill Burt, who is running the timer, notices this and to help out his old buddy yells, "STOP, CEASE FIRE, I believe that last round out of your shotgun was a squib wasn't it." Phantom is going for that Cadillac after all.

 

 

* I in know way believe either of these competitors would act in such poor sportsmanship.

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27 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Perhaps the best answer is to allow a reshoot any time a shooter is directed to STOP by the T. O. because of a known or suspected squib, or hand-fire.    No need to Make Safe and go to the next gun, no need to ruin anybody's clean match, or deliberate anything on the firing line or under the clock.  Just stop, unload, remove the squib, inspect the barrel by the ULO, reload, and return to go again, with any prior penalties carried forward, like any other reshoot.  

 

That eliminates the safety risks, gives the benefit of any doubt to the shooter, errs on the side of safety, and equalized any presumed competitive advantages afforded by running a gun with two barrels v. one -- all SGs would be treated equally.   

 

It would occasionally slow down a stage, but that is the only risk I can see.   To handle this any other way seems to unduly complicate the rules, and to include some level of unwanted risk of injury.  

Just my thoughts. 

 

That's a huge leap backward 30 years!  Here again, I have to agree w/my pard Phantom.  Although, I look at the squib outta one barrel of a double like a dropped round.  It can be done safely with just a small amount of good sense.  I recognize that's pretty rare in this day & age, but not as rare among my fellow cowboy shooters as in the general populace! ;)  

 

It doesn't take much basic intelligence to break open the double, squint down the tubes and identify, that, yep, there's wad in the left barrel, I can only reload the right.   

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I'm going to step forward, put my foot in my mouth, my thumb in my ear, and ask a dumb question...

After all these years, why is this SxS thing suddenly a problem?

 

For those with extensive experience at EoT and Winter Range, how has this routinely been handled?

On this side of the Big Muddy, it's been to use the unobstructed barrel.  What's been the routine elsewhere?

Not asking for opinions...  or what you think should be done, that's been discussed to death.  First-hand experience, please.

 

Mmmffgh!! <mumbles with foot planted firmly in mouth>

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8 minutes ago, McCandless said:

I'm going to step forward, put my foot in my mouth, and ask a dumb question...

After all these years, why is this SxS thing suddenly a problem?

 

For those with extensive experience at EoT and Winter Range, how has this routinely been handled?

On this side of the Big Muddy, it's been to use the unobstructed barrel.  What's been the routine elsewhere?

Not asking for opinions...  or what you think should be done, that's been discussed to death.  First-hand experience, please.

 

I've never seen anyone stopped around here when they had one unobstructed barrel to work with.  I've personally dealt with this at least once that I can recall.  I let the shooter use the other barrel.  One of our local shooters reported on this thread that the same thing happened at a local match Saturday and was dealt with the same way.

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier.  For those who are citing SHB (p.13) "In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm."  If this is your basis for saying the shooter can't use the other barrel then to be consistent you have to believe that if the first shot out of a double is a squib the TO must at that point instruct the shooter to move to the next firearm rather than shoot the second shotgun shell.  If you don't agree with that I would like to hear your citation of the rule that allows the second shot to be fired.

 

Common sense that the second barrel is clearly not obstructed can't be applied either since you're citing the SHB as stating if there is a suspected squib the only acceptable action is to move to the next gun.

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I agree with Widders response to my post. I have called a cease fire on a 97 squib and it was the last gun. The barrel was obstructed and shooter took misses. If it was the first or second if the shooter realized it I suppose you may have enough time to tell the shooter to ground it. If the shooter is chambering a live round i will be screaming cease fire, stop, no or whatever I can do to avoid an accident. 

 

As far as the double barrel. If the shooter is allowed to shoot the unobstructed barrel, as TO I reserve the right to duck. 

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6 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I've never seen anyone stopped around here when they had one unobstructed barrel to work with.  I've personally dealt with this at least once that I can recall.  I let the shooter use the other barrel.  One of our local shooters reported on this thread that the same thing happened at a local match Saturday and was dealt with the same way.

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier.  For those who are citing SHB (p.13) "In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm."  If this is your basis for saying the shooter can't use the other barrel then to be consistent you have to believe that if the first shot out of a double is a squib the TO must at that point instruct the shooter to move to the next firearm rather than shoot the second shotgun shell.  If you don't agree with that I would like to hear your citation of the rule that allows the second shot to be fired.

 

Common sense that the second barrel is clearly not obstructed can't be applied either since you're citing the SHB as stating if there is a suspected squib the only acceptable action is to move to the next gun.

 

Not arguing for or against, just trying to see what actual experiences with the squibbed barrel in a double have been.  

For the one time it happened to me at the SouthEast Regional, I kept going with the unobstructed barrel for the remaining targets, (it was more than one, but I don't remember how many).

 

An interesting point, for those who say "ground the gun", a shooter, (with any gun), doesn't always realize there's a squib, or it doesn't "register".  With a shooter who fires off the second barrel and hits the target, just before the T.O. can get any words out of their mouth... how do we count that second target?  Hit? Miss?  P? SDQ? 

 

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1 minute ago, McCandless said:

 

Not arguing for or against, just trying to see what actual experiences with the squibbed barrel in a double have been.  

For the one time it happened to me at the SouthEast Regional, I kept going with the unobstructed barrel for the remaining targets, (it was more than one, but I don't remember how many).

 

An interesting point, for those who say "ground the gun", a shooter, (with any gun), doesn't always realize there's a squib, or it doesn't "register".  With a shooter who fires off the second barrel and hits the target, just before the T.O. can get any words out of their mouth... how do we count that second target?  Hit? Miss?  P? SDQ? 

 

Since I'm of the opinion they should be allowed to continue I wouldn't be saying anything other than telling them which barrel they could use.  Having said that, if I were about to attempt to stop a shooter for some reason and they got off a round before I could I would call whatever happened, hit or miss, unless I was stopping them for a SDQ/MDQ in which case it wouldn't matter.  Off the top of my head I can't think why I would be stopping them unless it was either a MDQ/SDQ.  Maybe calling them back to clear something or finish a string, but not stopping them.

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33 minutes ago, McCandless said:

I'm going to step forward, put my foot in my mouth, my thumb in my ear, and ask a dumb question...

After all these years, why is this SxS thing suddenly a problem?

 

For those with extensive experience at EoT and Winter Range, how has this routinely been handled?

On this side of the Big Muddy, it's been to use the unobstructed barrel.  What's been the routine elsewhere?

Not asking for opinions...  or what you think should be done, that's been discussed to death.  First-hand experience, please.

 

Mmmffgh!! <mumbles with foot planted firmly in mouth>

Most shooters at WR and EOT are using new shells, there are very few problems with SG ammo.

Monthly matches are a different story. Maybe every shooter could carry a cleaning rod and they could clear a wad from the barrel, just like carrying a screw knife for rifle jams. :lol:

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42 minutes ago, McCandless said:

I'm going to step forward, put my foot in my mouth, my thumb in my ear, and ask a dumb question...

After all these years, why is this SxS thing suddenly a problem?

 

For those with extensive experience at EoT and Winter Range, how has this routinely been handled?

On this side of the Big Muddy, it's been to use the unobstructed barrel.  What's been the routine elsewhere?

Not asking for opinions...  or what you think should be done, that's been discussed to death.  First-hand experience, please.

 

Mmmffgh!! <mumbles with foot planted firmly in mouth>

Why was the issue of a TO stopping a falling long gun only addressed a few years ago? Same kinda issue. Because the powers that be felt that folks shouldn't be helped or hindered by the ability of the TO...wasn't a consistent competition.

 

Same thing goes for this issue...with more of the burden of capability put on the shooter. Some under the stress of our game will be able to remember to only load a certain side...others may brain-fart...and kaboom...maybe...

 

How have I handled my posses at WR and EOT...and everywhere else? By noting the obstructed barrel and doing my dambest to make sure that the shooter doesn't load the bad side.

 

But that's not important. What's important is having rules that will allow for a consistent match (and yes, rules that make the game REASONABLY safe).

 

Phantom

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7 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Most shooters at WR and EOT are using new shells, there are very few problems with SG ammo.

Monthly matches are a different story. Maybe every shooter could carry a cleaning rod and they could clear a wad from the barrel, just like carrying a screw knife for rifle jams. :lol:

I was shooting BP and I had flubplusted a shell, (this was years ago).  It hasn't happened since as I'm reeaall careful about my loads.  

I'm seriously considering carrying a .45-70 filled with lead pellets instead of powder, as a "wad-knocker" in my belt.

 

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1 minute ago, McCandless said:

I was shooting BP and I had flubplusted a shell, (this was years ago).  It hasn't happened since as I'm reeaall careful about my loads.  

I'm seriously considering carrying a .45-70 filled with lead pellets instead of powder, as a "wad-knocker" in my belt.

 

I've seen shooters drop a heavy round down the barrel to clear a wad, sometimes it takes a couple attempts, it works.

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7 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Common sense that the second barrel is clearly not obstructed can't be applied either since you're citing the SHB as stating if there is a suspected squib the only acceptable action is to move to the next gun.

Notably absent here so far is guidance from the ROC.   We are probably continuing to contribute added  thoughts here that PWB and others feel warrant consideration.   That is a good thing. 

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3 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Notably absent here so far is guidance from the ROC.   We are probably continuing to contribute added  thoughts here that PWB and others feel warrant consideration.   That is a good thing. 

 

Currently attempting to compose an unbiased (by personal experience and observations) inquiry for ROC resolution.

Any clarifying exceptions to the rules "as written" would be preferred to any actual rule changes (requiring majority approval by the Territorial Governors).

 

The rules regarding "SQUIBS" vary slightly in the three documents:

REF:
SHB p.14

RO1 ppt slide #24

RO2 p.8

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30 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Currently attempting to compose an unbiased (by personal experience and observations) inquiry for ROC resolution.

Any clarifying exceptions to the rules "as written" would be preferred to any actual rule changes (requiring majority approval by the Territorial Governors).

 

The rules regarding "SQUIBS" vary slightly in the three documents:

REF:
SHB p.14

RO1 ppt slide #24

RO2 p.8

One could arguably interpret this as such: To make the firearm safe (Open the shotgun to see which barrel is obstructed)and continue on with the next procedure(load only the unobstructed barrel to finish the sequence). 

 

-Shotgun is considered safe when in contact with the shooter.

-This says continue on with next procedure, not firearm.

Thus no rule changes or changing of wording in the SHB.

 

Screenshot_20190722-191308_Drive.thumb.jpg.acb59f42b7fbfbfe172bb553b6e80093.jpg

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17 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

One could arguably interpret this as such: To make the firearm safe (Open the shotgun to see which barrel is obstructed)and continue on with the next procedure(load only the unobstructed barrel to finish the sequence). 

 

-Shotgun is considered safe when in contact with the shooter.

-This says continue on with next procedure, not firearm.

Thus no rule changes or changing of wording in the SHB.

 

That is the primary consideration at this point...what constitutes "make the firearm safe"?
IMO, that should also include clearing the obstruction from the barrel "on the clock" in order to safely continue.

Either case would require visual verification by the Timer Operator.

 

The SHB verbiage would need to be edited to conform with the RO2 statement (which would require adding the other "make safe" options); as well as adding to the RO1.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Nope, you said ANY time. Pretty easy for someone to say "STOP, I thought he/she had a squib". 

 

This rule is fine just like it is,  IMO. 

I think some folks here just like a good argument better than an attempt to solve a problem or issue.  I said what I have to say. Now the ROC can TAA.  Hope they do. 

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8 hours ago, McCandless said:

I'm going to step forward, put my foot in my mouth, my thumb in my ear, and ask a dumb question...

After all these years, why is this SxS thing suddenly a problem?

 

For those with extensive experience at EoT and Winter Range, how has this routinely been handled?

On this side of the Big Muddy, it's been to use the unobstructed barrel.  What's been the routine elsewhere?

Not asking for opinions...  or what you think should be done, that's been discussed to death.  First-hand experience, please.

 

Mmmffgh!! <mumbles with foot planted firmly in mouth>

I've had it go both ways.  Showed the clear barrel to TO, asked if I could load the good side and continue - one TO said no, one TO said yes.

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1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think some folks here just like a good argument better than an attempt to solve a problem or issue.  I said what I have to say. Now the ROC can TAA.  Hope they do. 

 

Folks here argue? Surely you jest :P

 

I applaud you for asking questions and attempting to come up with solutions, but you have to keep in mind history as well as there are those that will take advantage; that's why the rulebook has so many pages.

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40 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think some folks here just like a good argument better than an attempt to solve a problem or issue.  I said what I have to say. Now the ROC can TAA.  Hope they do. 

 

Wanna hear something funny.

All the view points shared on the Wire will always have folks who share this (^) view

towards the 'other' side.

In other words, the very same thoughts you just stated will also have others thinking the same

thing about you.   

 

Don't that just give ya a big ole belly laugh?  

:lol::lol:

 

Ya gotta love the Wire for what it is and ya gotta try to respect and enjoy every post by all the Pards.

Life's too short to do otherwise.

 

Have a great evening.

 

..........Widder

  

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Wanna hear something funny.

All the view points shared on the Wire will always have folks who share this (^) view

towards the 'other' side.

In other words, the very same thoughts you just stated will also have others thinking the same

thing about you.   

 

Don't that just give ya a big ole belly laugh?  

:lol::lol:

 

Ya gotta love the Wire for what it is and ya gotta try to respect and enjoy every post by all the Pards.

Life's too short to do otherwise.

 

Have a great evening.

 

..........Widder

  

 

 

Now that's funny and philosophical at the same time. I think I'll have a nanner split and think about it.

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SASS matches above the club level are “no alibi” matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability.

 

Since the competitor has the ability to finish the stage with the unobstructed barrel he should be allowed the opportunity to finish the stage without being hindered. Showing the unobstructed barrel to the TO (or clearing the obstructed barrel at the option of the shooter) is a reasonable safety request and the TO can monitor that only the cleared barrel(s) is loaded to complete the stage.

 

The situation is not unlike a squib in a revolver, in that the other revolver can be used to complete the stage. 

 

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56 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

SASS matches above the club level are “no alibi” matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability.

 

Since the competitor has the ability to finish the stage with the unobstructed barrel he should be allowed the opportunity to finish the stage without being hindered. Showing the unobstructed barrel to the TO (or clearing the obstructed barrel at the option of the shooter) is a reasonable safety request and the TO can monitor that only the cleared barrel(s) is loaded to complete the stage.

 

The situation is not unlike a squib in a revolver, in that the other revolver can be used to complete the stage. 

 

Your examples are pretty...bad.

 

How can you accidentally load a round in an obstructed barrel of the "Other" revolver?

 

Dear lord...

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Long time ago, when I was a foolish kid shooting clays at a friends ranch back East, I threw an H&R bolt action 12g shotgun in the snow as we were unloading the car. After the first shot (without checking to see if it was clear), I was staring down the barrel at 4" (of the end of the barrel) that spread upon and peeled back like a banana - and it was just snow!  I still have the shotgun, but it's 4" shorter now.  Lesson learned!

RR

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I think I was the shooter Captain Bill Burt referenced in his original post...and later as a 80'ish older gent...not quite, but knocking on the door of Elder Statesman Category. I was real interested in this thread. I shot 1st shotgun barrel, BOOM, 2nd barrel, pfft, TO (Captain Bill Burt) asked if barrel was blocked, I looked down barrels and replied it was (but somewhat ghostly, could see a little light, this to myself), did as TO instructed, loaded only unobstructed barrel, knocked down remaining targets. Went to ULT, looked down barrels and they were clear. When I received  my brass and hulls, one hull had the wad partially out. So, I made a mental note next time I will look on ground if wad is still in hull and maybe drop a pistol/rifle round down barrel to clear. Time difference though was probably negligible. Since I declared the barrel obstructed, I figured my stage was completed. Now, if TO had stopped me, and when checking barrels at ULT they might have been clear, a reshoot I guess. I do not know what that ghostly stuff in the barrel was but in process of shooting other barrel and walking to ULT it fell out unnoticed. This was at the Georgia State Match. Interesting.

 

RRR

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