Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Possible Squib in SG. How does TO handle?


Null N. Void

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

1. and 2. I've had it happen (one barrel obstructed the other not). Shooter fired both barrels, I thought one was a squib, he shucked and I could see daylight down one barrel and not down the other.  No need to stop him, he had a barrel to use, so I told him not to load the obstructed one, and he didn't.  He loaded one at a time and picked up the remaining three targets. It was slow, but he's in his eighties, I don't think he cared.  The firearm was safe, in the unobstructed barrel.

 

The logic is if you stop the shooter they have to eat the misses.  The known safety issue is easily dealt with, don't load that barrel.  If, as you said, they're rattled and load both then you stop them.  It's not like they're shooting a 10 round rifle string in 3 seconds and their isn't time to stop them.  They're pulling shotgun shells, either one to two, easy to see.  If you're over their shoulder where you belong you're looking right at the action.  Yeah, I didn't move from where I was standing, I just watched to be sure he only loaded one each time and it was in the right barrel.

 

BTW, I think this is an issue worth having a discussion about, people certainly may disagree. 

 

I don't think it's an issue on which Rustler can authoritatively declare you can't do it.

 

I respect the depth of TO experience you bring to the discussion, and appreciate the consideration you showed the elder gent in letting him finish the stage. I suspect the amount of time taken to check the barrels and instruct him on how to proceed was not significantly less than the 15 seconds the misses would have cost him, but he got to see it through. 

 

But you describe the ideal situation for that to happen — an well-seasoned TO running a deliberate shooter. The SHB is written for the high SASS numbered folks too — the newly minted TOs and the shooters who still whisper ‘load-skip-load-load-load-load’ at the LT.  And the SHB says to make the weapon safe and move on.

 

To me, that keeps people with way less experience than yours from trying to evaluate situations and make decisions with catastrophic potential on the clock. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 202
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Hmmm. I've seen many discussions on this. IIRC, it has always been agreed that it was safe to load the unobstructed barrel. I'm sure if I'm wrong more than two people will tell me so. ;)

 

Also, I think that if it were deemed unsafe by the TGs, ROC, and WB, it would be written into the rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hmmm. I've seen many discussions on this. IIRC, it has always been agreed that it was safe to load the unobstructed barrel. I'm sure if I'm wrong more than two people will tell me so. ;)

 

Also, I think that if it were deemed unsafe by the TGs, ROC, and WB, it would be written into the rules.

 

In the OP-It was stated a '97.

I will(and have)stop'em even with a SxS-To dang easy in the 'heat of the moment' to load the plugged barrel.

OLG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

 

I respect the depth of TO experience you bring to the discussion, and appreciate the consideration you showed the elder gent in letting him finish the stage. I suspect the amount of time taken to check the barrels and instruct him on how to proceed was not significantly less than the 15 seconds the misses would have cost him, but he got to see it through. 

 

But you describe the ideal situation for that to happen — an well-seasoned TO running a deliberate shooter. The SHB is written for the high SASS numbered folks too — the newly minted TOs and the shooters who still whisper ‘load-skip-load-load-load-load’ at the LT.  And the SHB says to make the weapon safe and move on.

 

To me, that keeps people with way less experience than yours from trying to evaluate situations and make decisions with catastrophic potential on the clock. 

 

 

I don't disagree with a lot of what you said.  It's a discussion worth having.  I feel comfortable that as a TO I can deal with a situation like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

In the OP-It was stated a '97.

I will(and have)stop'em even with a SxS-To dang easy in the 'heat of the moment' to load the plugged barrel.

OLG

 

 

The OP also stated that the TO only has about 1 second to react, etc........

 

For some of the better 97 shooters, 1 second would equal about 2 more shots before the TO could react..... :o

 

..........Widder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

The OP also stated that the TO only has about 1 second to react, etc........

 

For some of the better 97 shooters, 1 second would equal about 2 more shots before the TO could react..... :o

 

..........Widder

 

 

This is so true--

When I T/O a 'BORG' class shooter.

I try to be close enough, that if I must-I can put my hand out to stop the reloading.

YMMV,

OLG

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ive only had one TG , but the TO was directly behind and gave the "GO" when i shucked the hulls - he said "barrels are clear" , i felt quite comfortable with that , otherwise i would have stopped ...stage time is not worth the possible experience 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With a 97/87...... Better stop the shooter and give them a reshoot if the barrel is clear.

With a double - It takes almost no time to see if both barrels are clear. If one is clogged the shooter may continue with a single shot shotgun. Stopping the shooter when they have a perfectly good gun in hand would be grounds for a reshoot. If the the shooter decides to not shoot the gun then he buys the misses and the time.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

With a 97...... Better stop the shooter and give them a reshoot if the barrel is clear.

With a double - It takes almost no time to see if both barrels are clear. If one is clogged the shooter may continue with a single shot shotgun. Stopping the shooter when they have a perfectly good gun in hand would be grounds for a reshoot.

 

Not saying right or wrong on letting the SxS shooter continue...but to say that they have a perfectly good gun in hand is a bit of a laugher...unless I'm mis-reading your comment.

 

Phantom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Not saying right or wrong on letting the SxS shooter continue...but to say that they have a perfectly good gun in hand is a bit of a laugher...unless I'm mis-reading your comment.

 

Phantom

A double is two....two...two guns in one....

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Better make sure you remember which tube is clear... Perfectly good gun my ass.

...perfectly good ½ a gun. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Hey Phantom,

wanna buy a nice SxS for 1/2 price?

Right side barrel is already ported and is great for shooting around corners.

:D

 

..........Widder

 

Sounds like a perfectly good shotgun to me:wacko::lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the TO stops you, and the barrel is clear, do you get a reshoot?

if theTO stops you, and the barrel is block, then what?

and is it the TO who determines that you should ground the firearm, and move to the next stage?

one thread said you would count those "unfired" targets as misses? even if the barrel is determined clear?

im looking forward to the next RO class, that my local club should be having. (Thanks CBB)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Hey Phantom,

wanna buy a nice SxS for 1/2 price?

Right side barrel is already ported and is great for shooting around corners.

:D,

 

..........Widder

 

You don't run into a custom gun like that everyday, Widder.  I'd keep it if I were you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

You don't run into a custom gun like that everyday, Widder.  I'd keep it if I were you.

 

You're right Marshal.

But, it only shoots around RIGHT corners.

I'm looking for the rare LEFT corner shooter..... :lol:

 

I hear that Tyrel Cody has one but won't sell it.

Maybe I could 'trade' him my Bazooka Bubble Gum cartoon collection for it..... :D

 

P.S. - I actually do have the Bazooka Bubble Gum cartoon collection, 1 thru 50.

They are numbered at the bottom of the cartoon and I have all 50 of them.

 

..........Widder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

You're right Marshal.

But, it only shoots around RIGHT corners.

I'm looking for the rare LEFT corner shooter..... :lol:

 

I hear that Tyrel Cody has one but won't sell it.

Maybe I could 'trade' him my Bazooka Bubble Gum cartoon collection for it..... :D

 

P.S. - I actually do have the Bazooka Bubble Gum cartoon collection, 1 thru 50.

They are numbered at the bottom of the cartoon and I have all 50 of them.

 

..........Widder

 

Tyrel doesn't need the gum comics. I seen him pushing little kids down and taking theirs while he was getting their lunch money one day. Matter of fact, one of his favorite things to do is hide outside DQ and scare kids to make them drop their ice cream cones. Then he rides off on his stick horse laughing and hollering, "you can't catch me!" He's banned from 2 DQs in the southeast. Hey, I don't make this stuff up...:ph34r:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Howdy everybody!

 

I've read this thread and a couple more things came up my mind:

 

Safety in gun handling is always a two stage mechanism. So, there have to be at least two safety rules to be broken that damage might happen. Claiming that it is safe to use only the clear barrel of the SG while the other barrel is clogged is like claiming (e.g.) loading six in a revolver is safe as long as you don't drop the gun.

 

If the TO lets the shooter continue with the clear barrel, could he stop him before pulling the trigger if he loaded the wrong barrel? Imho NO! And an answer like "it depends on who's on the line" is not valid because it's the same game with the same rules for everybody, regardless if you're a newbie, world champion or 80 yrs old. Brain fades can happen to everyone...

 

Claiming afterwards it was safe because nothing happened after a TO has let a shooter finish with a half obstructed gun is one of the major sophisms in risk management. If you have 10 similar events with a likelihood of 10% that an accident happens, you cannot say you just shouldn't have done the single event where the accident happened, the risk was the same at every event.

 

And last but not least, the SHB clearly states (p.13) "In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm." There's no exception for guns with more than one barrel and no discretion for the TO.

 

Equanimous

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

If the TO lets the shooter continue with the clear barrel, could he stop him before pulling the trigger if he loaded the wrong barrel? Imho NO! And an answer like "it depends on who's on the line" is not valid because it's the same game with the same rules for everybody, regardless if you're a newbie, world champion or 80 yrs old. Brain fades can happen to everyone...

 

And last but not least, the SHB clearly states (p.13) "In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm." There's no exception for guns with more than one barrel and no discretion for the TO.

 

Equanimous

Hey Equanimous,

    I am going to both agree and disagree with you.

    1st paragraph-I believe it DOES matter who is on the line. Also it matters who the TO is. Take myself for example as TO. If I am timing a slower methodical shooter whose sole enjoyment in life is to shoot clean matches, I feel competent enough to instruct them to use only one barrel to finish out the stage. This will do 2 things. First, if there is not a squib in the other barrel they can have a reshoot. Second, if there is a squib they dont have to take several misses because of it. On the other hand, if it is a super fast shooter that I am not confident I can stop then I'll just say squib and be done with it because THIS shooter does not want to have a discussion with me on the timer about it. I can understand where some TOs are confident in their ability to allow a fast shooter to continue because even the fastest will need 1 to 2 seconds to reload. This is just in my opinion.

 

2nd paragraph-The first thing I do as TO when a shooter comes to the line is evaluate them. This is mentally evaluating them as well as anything else. I believe it DOES allow for discretion for the TO. All because of the words "suspected" and "make safe". It is technically safe to use the unobstructed barrel. 

Again, just my opinion and I can see both sides of it.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Hey Equanimous,

    I am going to both agree and disagree with you.

    1st paragraph-I believe it DOES matter who is on the line. Also it matters who the TO is. Take myself for example as TO. If I am timing a slower methodical shooter whose sole enjoyment in life is to shoot clean matches, I feel competent enough to instruct them to use only one barrel to finish out the stage. This will do 2 things. First, if there is not a squib in the other barrel they can have a reshoot. Second, if there is a squib they dont have to take several misses because of it. On the other hand, if it is a super fast shooter that I am not confident I can stop then I'll just say squib and be done with it because THIS shooter does not want to have a discussion with me on the timer about it. I can understand where some TOs are confident in their ability to allow a fast shooter to continue because even the fastest will need 1 to 2 seconds to reload. This is just in my opinion.

  

2nd paragraph-The first thing I do as TO when a shooter comes to the line is evaluate them. This is mentally evaluating them as well as anything else. I believe it DOES allow for discretion for the TO. All because of the words "suspected" and "make safe". It is technically safe to use the unobstructed barrel. 

 Again, just my opinion and I can see both sides of it.

 

 

 

As with you -- an 'agree and disagree' perspective.

 

SHB p. 14: In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm. If the barrel is later determined to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot.

 

SHB p. 16 A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only:

- Empty

 

To 'continue with the next firearm' means the shotgun has to leave the shooter's hands. The 'If the barrel is later determined to be clear' does not allow for inspection during the course of fire.

 

In those points, I'm with Equanimous -- the point of 'make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm' doesn't seem to leave a lot to TO discretion,, and there is no 'double barrel exception' on squibs.

 

I get that no one wants to make a shooter eat some misses, and I respect the experience that the seasoned shooters bring to the discussion. And I appreciate the consideration given to the deliberate shooters.

 

There's a lot of experience out there, maybe someone could answer a related question:

 

Has anyone seen or experienced a squib in a double barrel at a state- or national-level match, and how was it handled there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

 

SHB p. 16 A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only:

- Empty

 

To 'continue with the next firearm' means the shotgun has to leave the shooter's hands. The 'If the barrel is later determined to be clear' does not allow for inspection during the course of fire.

 

Howdy Ozark!

  Id just point out a couple of things. The referenced shb rule about the shotgun leaving the shooters hands really doesn't apply to this situation imho. 

Also, "to continue with the next firearm means the shotgun has to leave the shooters hands" is an incorrect statement. 

I can pick up the shotgun and load it, then draw a revolver and fire the revolver while holding the loaded shotgun. I can also fire the shotgun and eject empties, keep the shotgun in my hand while I fire the revolver...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have watched a good shooter have two suspected squibs in a double, stop to determine that the barrels of the SxS were clear, show clear to the T.O., get the affirmation, and continue use the gun, in relatively short order.  So that can be done.  If both the R.O and the shooter know the gun is clear, If the shooter wants to continue, why make the shooter ground it and go through, as an R.O., knowing that the barrels are clear and you're going to have them reshoot?  (Although sometimes on a bad stage, you might want a reshoot!)  Of course, I'm only addressing a SxS here, with a '97, the only thing to do with a suspected squib is stop and ground it.

 

Over the years, I have seen squib loads occur in one barrel of a SxS, and the shooter be allowed to continue on with the unobstructed barrel.  It never seemed to be a problem for the R.O., Posse Marshal, or Berm Marshal.   I had it happen to me once at a regional match.  Right barrel had the wad left in it... just kept firing with the left barrel.  Can I tell left from right?  Yes.  That's the only time it happened to me, but I've seen this played out many times.  So, it appears there is a difference of opinion among R.O.s and R.O. Instructors about how this is handled with a SxS.  If the unobstructed barrel is not allowed to be used, then there needs to be a rules clarification on that.  

Does there need to be caution used to make sure the proper barrel is used?  Yes.  Is it mechanically safe to use the unobstructed barrel?  Yes.  

 

We can't address local rules here, them is what they is.  Just talking about SASS rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If this question has been asked and answered, I apologize for asking again.

 

QUESTION:

If a SxS shooter were to get a single barrel squib and the TO instructs them to either Stop (last gun) or

'GROUND' it and continue, will the shooter be eligible for a reshoot if ONE barrel is still good

and the shooter had good intentions of only using the GOOD barrel to finish his SG portion?

 

And would it make a difference if there was ONLY 1 KD remaining on the stage when the squib occurred

during the firing of the 2nd barrel.   Would the shooter be allowed to reload for the good barrel for that remaining 

shot?

How about if the squib occurred while firing the 1st barrel and the 2nd barrel was still live and ready to

finish the last KD.

 

Now get this situation:

ONLY 1 KD remains during the SG run.

Shooter #1 has 2 live rounds in the SG and gets a squib on the first round, but is able to shoot the 2nd barrel

and finish the stage appropriately.

 

Shooter #2 has 2 live rounds in the SG but misses with his first shot, then gets a squib on his 2nd barrel.

Will shooter #2 be allowed to use a reload on the good barrel to finish the SG run?

 

If not..... WHY?    Shooter #1 was allowed to continue after the squib in his 1st barrel, while shooter #2

wasn't allowed to continue because his squib was in the 2nd barrel.

 

I may be splitting hairs, but WE ALL need to be cautious as to how we try to handle these situations.

 

And at the speeds some of our Top Shooters can reload a SxS, it could be the difference in a

Championship or just a top 10 finish.

 

 

..........Widder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 
 
0
 Advanced issues found
 
 
 
10 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

QUESTION:

If a SxS shooter were to get a single barrel squib and the TO instructs them to either Stop (last gun) or

'GROUND' it and continue, will the shooter be eligible for a reshoot if ONE barrel is still good

and the shooter had good intentions of only using the GOOD barrel to finish his SG portion?

Without a Rules Clarification, if the shooter had let it be known that he wanted to use the unobstructed barrel, and was not allowed to by the R.O., then yes a reshoot should be allowed.  Because on another posse, in another part of the match, a different R.O. is making a different decision, allowing the shooter to use the unobstructed barrel.

 

 
 
0
 Advanced issues found
 
 
 
10 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

And would it make a difference if there was ONLY 1 KD remaining on the stage when the squib occurred

during the firing of the 2nd barrel.   Would the shooter be allowed to reload for the good barrel for that remaining 

shot?

How about if the squib occurred while firing the 1st barrel and the 2nd barrel was still live and ready to

finish the last KD.

If there were two rounds in the SxS and only one target, before the R.O. could get the words out of his mouth, that target would already be down.   If a reload was required, without a Rules Clarification,  yes, use the unobstructed barrel.  This has been happening for a long time already, and is still being allowed.  

 

 
 
0
 Advanced issues found
 
 
 
10 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Now get this situation:

ONLY 1 KD remains during the SG run.

Shooter #1 has 2 live rounds in the SG and gets a squib on the first round, but is able to shoot the 2nd barrel

and finish the stage appropriately.

Most shooters, that target would already be down, well before the T.O.s brain processes it and it gets out of his mouth.  Since the stage is over before the T.O. yelled "squib", how are you going to penalize a shooter for a disobeying a command you didn't make?

 

 
 
0
 Advanced issues found
 
 
 
10 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Shooter #2 has 2 live rounds in the SG but misses with his first shot, then gets a squib on his 2nd barrel.

Will shooter #2 be allowed to use a reload on the good barrel to finish the SG run?

 

If not..... WHY?    Shooter #1 was allowed to continue after the squib in his 1st barrel, while shooter #2

wasn't allowed to continue because his squib was in the 2nd barrel.

Thus the need for a Rules Clarification.  Different R.O.s under the same scenario are making different calls.

Unless a T.O. is on the very top of his game, a SxS loaded with two, with a squib in one barrel, is going to have the second shot fired before a T.O. can get a command out of his mouth.  If there were follow up shots required and  T.O. yells squib and tells the shooter to ground the gun, then the shooter has no choice but to ground it.  Discussion can follow, off the clock.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What the heck is "

0

 Advanced issues found

▲"
 
Did we finally manage to break the Wire with too much mispuzzlementation!?  :lol:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

This tells me, if you're gonna load a squib put it in the last firing barrel....:ph34r:

 

This reply tells me you need a DQ fix..... :lol:

 

Its 90+ in Tennessee, so enjoy 2 DQ treats..... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

McCandless,

Thanks.   Your reply was the intent of my examples in that there needed to be some consistency

in our calls based on appropriate guidelines and/or a rule.

 

Some TO's may ask the shooter to stop with a squib in the SxS while other TO's may allow

the shooter to continue with the good barrel.

And other circumstances also seem to make a difference as to how these type squibs are

handled on the firing line.

Yes, it would be good for everyone to be on the same page about these type situations.

 

..........Widder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Howdy Ozark!

  Id just point out a couple of things. The referenced shb rule about the shotgun leaving the shooters hands really doesn't apply to this situation imho. 

Also, "to continue with the next firearm means the shotgun has to leave the shooters hands" is an incorrect statement. 

I can pick up the shotgun and load it, then draw a revolver and fire the revolver while holding the loaded shotgun. I can also fire the shotgun and eject empties, keep the shotgun in my hand while I fire the revolver...

So as I understand what you’re saying — the shooter with a squib in one barrel of a SxS has the option of carrying the shotgun in one hand while he or she continues to the next firearm, in compliance with the SHB? :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

So as I understand what you’re saying — the shooter with a squib in one barrel of a SxS has the option of carrying the shotgun in one hand while he or she continues to the next firearm, in compliance with the SHB? :D

  

 I didnt mention squib in that paragraph. I said I could hold the loaded shotgun while I fire my pistol. I said I could also hold the shotgun after I have fired it and emptied the hulls while I fire the revolvers. 

But, to answer your question the shb says to make it safe. It is safe in hand as pointed out above, so YES in my opinion as long as the empties are shucked before engaging the next firearm .

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

  

 I didnt mention squib in that paragraph. I said I could hold the loaded shotgun while I fire my pistol. I said I could also hold the shotgun after I have fired it and emptied the hulls while I fire the revolvers. 

But, to answer your question the shb says to make it safe. It is safe in hand as pointed out above, so YES in my opinion as long as the empties are shucked before engaging the next firearm .

 

But what if the ‘next firearm’ is the rifle?:lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.