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Possible Squib in SG. How does TO handle?


Null N. Void

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The instruction to STOP is improper coaching unless and until the shooter attempts to load a round in the suspected blocked barrel.

The shooter is free to continue with the unblocked barrel to complete the stage.

The instruction to STOP can be also be made on the side of caution as soon as the squib occurs, but the shooter would be entitled to a re-shoot as he could have completed the stage with the unobstructed barrel.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

But what if the ‘next firearm’ is the rifle?:lol:

In that case, if I WANTED to hold the shotgun while I fire the rifle I could. Simply by holding the shotgun left handed with thumb and index finger by the forearm with the shotgun open. Pick rifle up by the grip and rest the forearm of the rifle on the remaining 3 fingers of my left hand (its a shame to waste all those digits God gave you) while I fire the rifle.:ph34r:

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3 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

The instruction to STOP is improper coaching unless and until the shooter attempts to load a round in the suspected blocked barrel.

The shooter is free to continue with the unblocked barrel to complete the stage.

The instruction to STOP can be also be made on the side of caution as soon as the squib occurs, but the shooter would be entitled to a re-shoot as he could have completed the stage with the unobstructed barrel.

 

 

 

Cool. Show me the text from the SHB or other documentation.

 

 

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Here in Canada, I would call a STOP even in a SxS with an open tube.

I see shooters get too "Into the Stage" to run the risk of a cartridge loaded into the blocked tube and fired.

In a gun unfriendly place like Canada has become, an incident on the range would likely result in it's shut-down while an investigation plodded on to a conclusion. 

 

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I'd probably use another word than STOP, being the same as CEASE FIRE, when there are other guns still to go.  It is technically the wrong command.  SQUIB! or GROUND THE GUN! may be more appropriate.

"- “Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the CRO/TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops. The shooter must stop shooting and stop moving immediately."

Of course, what comes burbling outa my mouth at the time, may be something completely different than what my brain says! :lol:  

 

As far as with a SxS being the shotgun, and the last gun, and having an unobstructed barrel?  That appears to be a matter of some debate.

 

Widder has posed some good questions.

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On 7/17/2019 at 12:49 AM, Griff said:

es... please explain why it is unsafe to load and fire a properly sized shot shel thru an UNobstructed barrel.  Not your opinion as to what could, might, possibly or otherwise happen in a speculative manner.  "Facts, just the facts, ma'am," to quote my favorite detective.

I shoot a double and I THINK my left barrel fires first but I am not sure... when I have an occasion to test which fires first, I SWEAR I’ll remember....so, in case I have a squib, are you gonna trust that I will load the correct chamber?   Especially in the heat of the moment... I won’t. This is a GAME.  If I have to eat some misses in order to go home safely, then I’m ok with that. NOTHING about this game is worth risking my safety or that of others - whether I’m shooter or TO. I have seen SG squibs several times.  

 

Good discussion. 

 

Big hugs,

Scarlett

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17 hours ago, McCandless said:

I'd probably use another word than STOP, being the same as CEASE FIRE, when there are other guns still to go.  It is technically the wrong command.  SQUIB! or GROUND THE GUN! may be more appropriate.

"- “Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the CRO/TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops. The shooter must stop shooting and stop moving immediately."

Of course, what comes burbling outa my mouth at the time, may be something completely different than what my brain says! :lol:  

 

As far as with a SxS being the shotgun, and the last gun, and having an unobstructed barrel?  That appears to be a matter of some debate.

 

Widder has posed some good questions.

 

You have an excellent point and you are correct, but in the heat of the moment, I just want to get any command out that will stop something potentially dangerous from happening, so whatever is the first thing that my old brain comes up with: that's what comes out of my mouth.

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13 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I shoot a double and I THINK my left barrel fires first but I am not sure... when I have an occasion to test which fires first, I SWEAR I’ll remember....so, in case I have a squib, are you gonna trust that I will load the correct chamber?   Especially in the heat of the moment... I won’t. This is a GAME.  If I have to eat some misses in order to go home safely, then I’m ok with that. NOTHING about this game is worth risking my safety or that of others - whether I’m shooter or TO. I have seen SG squibs several times.  

 

Good discussion. 

 

Big hugs,

Scarlett

Like any good discussion, a definition terms is always advisable.  There are doubles, and then there are other doubles... Those with two triggers and those w/one.  I've never owned a single trigger double, but it's my understanding those are further divided by "inertia" and "mechanical".  An inertia tye needs recoil to reset between firing pins (barrels), whereas the mechanical type resets sfter each pull & release of the trigger.   (If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me)!  

 

In their factory configuration a double trigger setup is front trigger = right barrel & rear = left.  For this shooter, ( or one that's reversed their triggers), it's pretty easy to clear their hulls and look thru both barrels to determine if one still had an obstruction, then subsequently only load the clear barrel.  Allowing them to finish the stage.  The shooter with a mechanical setup may also be able to continue, An inertial trigger shotgunner may not be able to.  

 

The ability of the shooter to adapt & overcome the challenge of finishing the stage under the circumstances, as well as the TO's ability to safely assist the shooter thru the stage is a whole 'nuther discussion.  But to arbitrarily tell the shooter, ...put the gun down..., yer done..." is a cop-out.  

 

While the SHB states:

Quote

- All shooters must demonstrate rudimentary familiarity and proficiency with the firearms being used. Shooters are expected to perform within their capabilities at all times.
- SASS matches are not the forums in which to learn basic firearms handling.

I would postulate that this scenario falls outside "rudimentary" or "basic" firearms handling, yet should be within the capability of an average or advanced competitor.  Coaching a novice shooter thru such an event should be in the skillset of the competent TO.  Sure, if you're not confident in your ability to coach the shooter, tell 'em to STOP, pick up your guns, proceed to the unloading table, unload and get back in line, have a reshoot on me!

 

Maybe the discussion should center on TO training to deal with aberrant situations.

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OK.  It happened this morning. 

I was T. O.  Shooter was extremely experienced.  SG was last gun with four SG KD targets.  Squib occurred on first target, leaving four targets standing.  Squib obstruction was visible in right barrel.  Left barrel was clear and still laoded.  Browning SBS had one non-selective trigger, shooter could have safely fired at least one more round without any risk of reloading the obstructed barrel.   

 

I stopped the shooter.  Barrel was, in fact, obstructed, so per SHB, shooter had four misses, no reshoot.  I honestly wanted to offer a reshoot, but SHB contradicts the reshoot if the barrel, upon examination, contains an obstruction.  SHB makes no mention of exceptions for multiple barrels.  ( I do agree that should be clarified in the SHB.) 

 

After-thoughts / Discussion:

Allowing the shooter to take one more (known safe) shot could have saved him one miss.  Allowing him to reload the good left barrel three times for the other three standing targets could have preserved his clean match, but would also have risked a very dangerous and fast occurring mistake. 

 

I would not call it differently now, after much after-thought, based purely on the explicit direction in the SHB.  And because my job was to SAFELY assist the shooter through the course of fire. 

IMO, managing/allowing known risks of injury, even for a known experienced shooter, but who is  working under a clock, is not sound and safe judgment on the part of a T. O.  I assume that kind of discussion must have taken place among knowledgeable folks, as the existing SHB was written.  And they decided to err on the side of safety.  I did not feel It was up to me to second guess their decisions. 

 

I'm sure many will disagree with my call.   The shooter graciously accepted my judgment and the misses.  I greatly respect him for that.  This was a real lot to try to process in 1/4 second, as it was rolling out.  But I felt the reshoot question was clear, based on SHB.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

OK.  It happened this morning. 

I was T. O.  Shooter was extremely experienced.  SG was last gun with four SG KD targets.  Squib occurred on first target, leaving four targets standing.  Squib obstruction was visible in right barrel.  Left barrel was clear and still laoded.  Browning SBS had one non-selective trigger, shooter could have safely fired at least one more round without any risk of reloading the obstructed barrel.   

 

I stopped the shooter. 

 

Just an oddball question... If the shooter had been able to clear the obstruction, would you have let them continue?

 

tool_wadpopper.jpg.d45760ae4e59336241110798edee8458.jpg   4158850.jpg.67f78b73f5838b504a7a08cf7541745f.jpg  549523766_download(17).png.648c0c2f1485a45e819daf6a1e9470b1.png

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Absolutely.  But the shooter decided the time to clear the wad would have exceeded the miss penalties by a wide margin.   

 

I'm looking at the item attached to your post.  Can you tell more about it - looks pretty interesting.  

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Sorry a little off topic.  I was TO for a shooter who used to shoot a lot of trap and skeet.  After rifle and pistol he grabs up the 97 and Bang, Bang, Bang then Poof.   I said cease fire,  he bring the barrel to his mouth and puts his lips around the muzzle and blows down the barrel causing the wad to come out the ejection port.  I just looked at him and said you know your DQ ed right?  He said yes I know its what we used to do on the trap range to clear the wad.   Its an old habit.  Bullett 19707

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You wouldn't credit it but it happened to a shooter at a match I attended today.

It was a Win AA feather light factory round.

The TO called a squib and the shooter opened and shucked the rounds and checked the barrels.

The left barrel was blocked so the TO let the shooter continue with right only.

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5 hours ago, Bullett Sass 19707 said:

Sorry a little off topic.  I was TO for a shooter who used to shoot a lot of trap and skeet.  After rifle and pistol he grabs up the 97 and Bang, Bang, Bang then Poof.   I said cease fire,  he bring the barrel to his mouth and puts his lips around the muzzle and blows down the barrel causing the wad to come out the ejection port.  I just looked at him and said you know your DQ ed right?  He said yes I know its what we used to do on the trap range to clear the wad.   Its an old habit.  Bullett 19707

Absolutely unbelievable. . 

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11 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Absolutely unbelievable. . 

Seen this and done it myself on the clays fields. Over a million shotgun rounds it happens. We have rods now on all fields to clear stuck wads. 

 

I have seen seen two barrels explode. One caused severe injury to shooters hand. Broken bones and surgery required. The other looked like it came from an old cartoon, totally split. 

 

I did did have a situation where I had a squib, broke the clay, but the wad never left the mouth of the casing. So it is possible to knock down a target and still have an obstructed barrel. 

 

As TO, I call cease fire,, period. If barrel is clear upon inspection at unloading table, reshoot. Not worth the chance. We all go home happy. 

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Black Mike,

If you call 'cease fire' with other firearms still to be used to finish the stage run, then the shooter would get a

reshoot reguardless of obstruction or not because you would have stopped them from ALL

activities.

As some have stated above, it would probably be best to just tell the shooter to 'Ground the SG'

and move on to next firearm(s).

Then appropriate inspection can be made after the shooter finishes the stage and

the 'reshoot' decision appropriately addressed.

 

..........Widder

 

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Coincidentally, the shotgun squib happened in our Saturday match.

TO allowed the shooter to finish by shooting one barrel at a time for three times.

didnt have any problems - but it took him more than 15 seconds - so time-wise he should have ground the gun.

he saved his clean stage / match - I guess that is important to some shooters.

seems like we need SASS and the wild bunch to help us out in the Handbook.

It doesn't seem right that half of  ya'll would stop the shooter, and the other half would let the shooter finish, and the other half would give the shooter a re-shoot.

or we can just recklessly throw lead down range, get intoxicated by the aroma of gunpowder, and see what happens ! (Sarcasm added by the author for humor)

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This exact situation happened at the match we shot yesterday.  I was the shooter, Kay Sadeeya was TO.  Single trigger Baikal double.  First 2 rounds boom boom, targets down.  2nd 2 rounds, poof boom, 1 target down, 1 target up.  I opened the gun, shucked the shells, looked down the barrels, left was obstructed.  I said "right barrel is clear, I am loading one!", loaded one in the right barrel & made up the standing target.  Continued with the stage.  When I cleared the gun at the ULT, the wad was maybe 3/4" past the end of the chamber.

 

Was I wrong to proceed?  Was the TO wrong to let me?  I knew what I was doing, the TO knew what I was doing, everyone on the posse knew what I was doing.  At no point was anything or anyone unsafe because I did things properly.   IMHO, you have to apply RO3 in these situations.  Sometimes its better to ground the gun (or tell the shooter to ground it) & sometimes you can safely proceed.

 

Holler

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8 minutes ago, Hollifer A. Dollar said:

This exact situation happened at the match we shot yesterday.  I was the shooter, Kay Sadeeya was TO.  Single trigger Baikal double.  First 2 rounds boom boom, targets down.  2nd 2 rounds, poof boom, 1 target down, 1 target up.  I opened the gun, shucked the shells, looked down the barrels, left was obstructed.  I said "right barrel is clear, I am loading one!", loaded one in the right barrel & made up the standing target.  Continued with the stage.  When I cleared the gun at the ULT, the wad was maybe 3/4" past the end of the chamber.

 

Was I wrong to proceed?  Was the TO wrong to let me?  I knew what I was doing, the TO knew what I was doing, everyone on the posse knew what I was doing.  At no point was anything or anyone unsafe because I did things properly.   IMHO, you have to apply RO3 in these situations.  Sometimes its better to ground the gun (or tell the shooter to ground it) & sometimes you can safely proceed.

 

Holler

It's not a question of wrong or right. We must be consistent.

 

Whether someone "knows what they are doing" is irrelevant as the rules should apply equally to both those that "know what they are doing" and those that don't.

 

Phantom

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15 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Absolutely.  But the shooter decided the time to clear the wad would have exceeded the miss penalties by a wide margin.   

 

I'm looking at the item attached to your post.  Can you tell more about it - looks pretty interesting.  

Wad-Poppers or Wad-Knockers are used for shooting Clays.  Basically a 4-6" hunk of fat brass rod. 

For CAS a .45-70 or .38-55, (or any large rifle case), filled with lead pellets instead of powder, stuck in your cartridge loops for fast access, will easily knock out a stuck wad.  Just as fast as a 1-shot reload for a rifle.

 

Clearing the obstruction is fast and easy if you remember to carry a heavy cartridge case or two in your belt. 

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2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Black Mike,

If you call 'cease fire' with other firearms still to be used to finish the stage run, then the shooter would get a

reshoot reguardless of obstruction or not because you would have stopped them from ALL

activities.

As some have stated above, it would probably be best to just tell the shooter to 'Ground the SG'

and move on to next firearm(s).

Then appropriate inspection can be made after the shooter finishes the stage and

the 'reshoot' decision appropriately addressed.

 

..........Widder

 

So now I'm wondering if the TO doesn't say to cease fire and the shooter absolutely knows that it is clear, do they have to take the time to prove it clear or can they keep going. I know that it would be best if the TO understood and would probably make the most sense to just take a reshoot because they already have been slowed down and thrown off their game. I'm just wondering if you are breaking rules by ignoring them. 

 

This happened at the warm up at EOT and I got after my kid later because he should have told the TO what he was doing. He had a squib in his 97 and the shell didn't eject. The TO told him the wad didn't clear and that he should put the gun down for now. When he pulled the shell out by hand, the wad was in the shell. He threw it down and kept shooting his 97. I don't know if he assumed that the TO also saw the wad but he didn't until later. The TO told him to hold up but he kept going. It was just the warm up so he didn't care about time and he probably wouldn't have reshot the stage even if it was offered. 

 

They have gotten used to ignoring the TOs when they get improper coaching related to them being buckaroos. They regularly get told to re-engage a shotgun target that was completely obvious it had been hit because the TOs forget they are buckaroos. 

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Wow, a lot more SG squibs than I'd thought there would be.  I think we need a PWB ruling for:

  • Whether a squib mandates putting down the SG regardless of type.
  • If yes on putting a double down, do you get a reshoot if one barrel is clear. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

Wow, a lot more SG squibs than I'd thought there would be.  I think we need a PWB ruling for:

  • Whether a squib mandates putting down the SG regardless of type.
  • If yes on putting a double down, do you get a reshoot if one barrel is clear. 

 

 

I would think not. The risk is having the shooter making a loading mistake by putting the single round in the wrong chamber.

 

Crazy crap happens when under the clock.

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20 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Excuse me, are you asking if you can ignore a command from the TO??

Trying to understand what is considered a command and what is coaching. Obviously, you have to stop when they say cease fire or stop. I want to know if they have to use that exact wording for it to be considered a command. Lately they have been pushing that you are ultimately responsible and not the TO. You don't get reshoots for improper coaching. Like if the TO tells you that you had 2 makeups instead of 3 so if you only shoot 2 you will still get a miss. 

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20 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

Wow, a lot more SG squibs than I'd thought there would be.  I think we need a PWB ruling for:

  • Whether a squib mandates putting down the SG regardless of type.
  • If yes on putting a double down, do you get a reshoot if one barrel is clear. 

 

 

 

Let me ask this as a tenderfoot, since I don't have all the SHB nuances:

 

What does 'will' mean?

 

On p. 17 -- it says 

- Any unloaded firearm dropped during a stage will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty assessment.

 

That seems pretty clear. But take a SxS, break it open, dump the shells -- I'd believe the TO would realize it's a safe gun. If the shooter drops a broke-open SxS with obviously no shells in the chambers, it's about as dangerous as a dropped brick. Is there somewhere a thread about TOs exercising judgement because they knew the gun was safe, and not assessing a SDQ because they don't want to cost the shooter a lost stage?

 

Got to p. 14 -- it says:

- In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm.

 

How does loading a fresh shell and engaging a target match up to 'make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm'?

 

And the 'I'd do it for this shooter, but not for that one?' Or one situation and not the other? How does that square with keeping the match even? It's like acknowledging there's an unsafe situation and an SHB-based way to handle it, but choosing to do otherwise. If that's the case, whatever happens is completely on the TO's shoulders.

 

 

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Howdy Chicken George.

 

The "Cease Fire" command carries with it a total and complete stoppage of the shooters activities, regardless

of the circumstance.    Of course, I know you know that but I used that in my post above because I was

referencing the command given as stated by Black Mike in his post.

 

That is why I suggested the command of "Ground the SG" as a viable command when there might be

a legit SG problem.

 

I agree that it would be nice if we had a consensus, ROC and PWB approved, TO Command.

 

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It's not a question of wrong or right. We must be consistent.

 

Whether someone "knows what they are doing" is irrelevant as the rules should apply equally to both those that "know what they are doing" and those that don't.

 

Phantom

 

I think Phantom makes a very good and valid point in his post that I "Quoted" above.

Consistency is a good thing.    And appropriate commands for certain situations can help ensure

we are all on the same page.

 

..........Widder

 

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2 hours ago, Hollifer A. Dollar said:

This exact situation happened at the match we shot yesterday.  I was the shooter, Kay Sadeeya was TO.  Single trigger Baikal double.  First 2 rounds boom boom, targets down.  2nd 2 rounds, poof boom, 1 target down, 1 target up.  I opened the gun, shucked the shells, looked down the barrels, left was obstructed.  I said "right barrel is clear, I am loading one!", loaded one in the right barrel & made up the standing target.  Continued with the stage.  When I cleared the gun at the ULT, the wad was maybe 3/4" past the end of the chamber.

 

Was I wrong to proceed?  Was the TO wrong to let me?  I knew what I was doing, the TO knew what I was doing, everyone on the posse knew what I was doing.  At no point was anything or anyone unsafe because I did things properly.   IMHO, you have to apply RO3 in these situations.  Sometimes its better to ground the gun (or tell the shooter to ground it) & sometimes you can safely proceed.

 

Holler

 

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It's not a question of wrong or right. We must be consistent.

 

Whether someone "knows what they are doing" is irrelevant as the rules should apply equally to both those that "know what they are doing" and those that don't.

 

Phantom

These are both knowledgeable men with opposing interpretations on what is allowed under the rules.

 

There is a solution. Revise the rules to specify whether it is allowed to continue to shoot a Double with one obstructed barrel or specify that it is not allowed.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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51 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

Wow, a lot more SG squibs than I'd thought there would be.  I think we need a PWB ruling for:

  • Whether a squib mandates putting down the SG regardless of type.
  • If yes on putting a double down, do you get a reshoot if one barrel is clear. 

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I would think not. The risk is having the shooter making a loading mistake by putting the single round in the wrong chamber.

 

Crazy crap happens when under the clock.

 

I think you can make a case that, with a double barrel gun, only half of the gun is plugged...literally.  If the shooter could safely continue with the half of the gun that is not disabled, but is not allowed to continue, you can say that it was the same as a squib in a revolver or rifle that plug the barrel.  The shooter would be due a reshoot.  JMHO.

 

Holler

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3 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

These are both knowledgeable men with opposing interpretations on what is allowed under the rules.

 

There is a solution. Revise the rules to specify whether it is allowed to continue to shoot a Double with one obstructed barrel or specify that it is not allowed.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

It would seem best to modify the rules such that if there is ANY squib in ANY shotgun, the shooter simply grounds the shotgun and finishes the stage. If the shooter attempts to continue to use the shotgun, the TO would then yell "Ground the shotgun!" or something similar as Widder has said. But it needs to be a consistent command. Then, no matter who was responsible for the grounding of the shotgun, if the barrel or barrels in question are shown to be free of obstruction and safe at the unloading table a reshoot should be offered. This way we are safe, consistent and fair all at the same time. Any squib should be reason to stop using that gun until it can be verified it is safe.

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Hmmmm... have any of you looked down the barrels of a SxS after a shot of BP loaded w/a plastic wad?  Methinks you'd call it obstructed.  I read this thread and think, "...yep, the 'nanny-state' is alive & thriving."

 

Is it really that you think so little of your fellow competitors that you can't believe they'd be capable of safely continuing with the unblocked barrel of their SxS, or is that you hate to think of the (very questionable) advantage they'd have over your '97 shotgun, which is rendered inoperable by a blockage?

 

I read that some of y'all're callin' for a new rule... yet also decry the need for any more rules when you think your ox is getting gored.

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1 hour ago, Hollifer A. Dollar said:

 

 

I think you can make a case that, with a double barrel gun, only half of the gun is plugged...literally.  If the shooter could safely continue with the half of the gun that is not disabled, but is not allowed to continue, you can say that it was the same as a squib in a revolver or rifle that plug the barrel.  The shooter would be due a reshoot.  JMHO.

 

Holler

No one is arguing that a SxS is not capable of shooting if one barrel is obstructed. That would be silly.

 

The issue is whether it is safe under the stress of a competition and regardless of who the shooter (varying capabilities), is... How alert the TO is.

 

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

That seems pretty clear. But take a SxS, break it open, dump the shells -- I'd believe the TO would realize it's a safe gun. If the shooter drops a broke-open SxS with obviously no shells in the chambers, it's about as dangerous as a dropped brick. Is there somewhere a thread about TOs exercising judgement because they knew the gun was safe, and not assessing a SDQ because they don't want to cost the shooter a lost stage?

There is a difference in penalty for dropping an unloaded gun vs a loaded gun. In any case a gun dropped is not a safe gun. It has to be under shooter control or on a prop/holstered to be safe.

2 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

 

Got to p. 14 -- it says:

- In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm.

One quick and easy way to remedy this conflict is by adding the word "firearm" or "barrel" after the word squib.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

 

 

 

 

And the 'I'd do it for this shooter, but not for that one?' Or one situation and not the other? How does that square with keeping the match even? It's like acknowledging there's an unsafe situation and an SHB-based way to handle it, but choosing to do otherwise. If that's the case, whatever happens is completely on the TO's shoulders.

 

 

Lots can be said about this but would further hijack the post. I will keep it to some do not feel it is unsafe to load and fire through an unobstructed barrel and some do. Probably depends on the shooter. As far as an even match goes...some would say, it doesn't matter how a stage is set up, it just aint gonna be even for everybody. I agree with Phantom that we all need to go by the same rules.

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