Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 1, 2018 Posted July 1, 2018 Complete upfront disclosure... I am the shooter in this example AND I knew full well what the stage writers intentions were. Even more disclosure... It was hotter than snot on the range today and I did this just because... Target array is five targets in a straight line parallel to the firing line. O....O....O....O....O Stage instructions. With rifle: Beginning on either end; sweep targets. Then repeat instruction, no double taps. Same instruction for pistols. Like I said; it was hot... Last stage of the day and I was getting goofy from dehydration. And I knew the stage writers intention was two 5 target single tap sweeps from the same direction. But I'm a jerk; so I decided to see if there were any other way to shoot this stage and remain within the legal wording of the instructions. So I shot it as follows: Outside, outside, inside, inside, center and then single tap swept from one end. What's the call? Final fullest disclosure... Everyone on the posses head exploded and chaos ensued. Like I stated earlier; I knew the intent of the stagewriter. I knew I was being silly and I certainly did not gain anytime doing it the way I did. But what penalty, if any, should have been called and why? I'll disclose what the posse decided after a few responses.
Yusta B. Posted July 1, 2018 Posted July 1, 2018 Looks to me like 2 sweeps, each starting on a different end target, no double taps. Yer good to go ! (And thanks for the entertainment)
Michigan Slim Posted July 1, 2018 Posted July 1, 2018 GTG. Didn't stipulate what sweep, just start at the end.
McCandless Posted July 1, 2018 Posted July 1, 2018 I like it! It's two sweeps, no double taps. Works for me.
Westwood Willie Posted July 1, 2018 Posted July 1, 2018 I know how the heat can get to you. A similar thing happened to me. It was a fairly complicated stage. 4 targets, a round count for each target. 1 for the first target, 7 for target 2, 7 for target 3, and 6 for target 4, with a rifle reload. Do not finish with the rifle. No order for the guns used. I had this all figured out ahead of time how I would shoot it. Pistol first 1 round in target 1, 4 in target 2, now I switch to rifle and put 3 rounds in target 2, 4 rounds in target 3, and three with the re-load in target 4. Now I go back to the remaining pistol and put 3 rounds in target 3, and 2 rounds in target 4. Now I have the correct round count in each target. TO wanted me to continue with the second pistol after the first pistol. I stopped and explained I can't because I have to finish with the rifle, and I will have the proper round count in each target. TO finally said to continue at that point, but it cost me time and a couple misses because of being flustered. Almost skipped the last stage, but decide not to and shot a clean stage with my best time for the day. If I would have done what the TO wanted it would have pushed me into a P. Time was bad enough with the two misses. Whew! WW
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 1, 2018 Author Posted July 1, 2018 1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: No call. When's the hang'n? OLG No hanging... But I'm not sure that I'm allowed to ever return to that club or range. Which is going to be tough considering I'm that clubs president. Hmm.
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 1, 2018 Posted July 1, 2018 16 minutes ago, Westwood Willie said: I know how the heat can get to you. A similar thing happened to me. It was a fairly complicated stage. 4 targets, a round count for each target. 1 for the first target, 7 for target 2, 7 for target 3, and 6 for target 4, with a rifle reload. Do not finish with the rifle. No order for the guns used. I had this all figured out ahead of time how I would shoot it. Pistol first 1 round in target 1, 4 in target 2, now I switch to rifle and put 3 rounds in target 2, 4 rounds in target 3, and three with the re-load in target 4. Now I go back to the remaining pistol and put 3 rounds in target 3, and 2 rounds in target 4. Now I have the correct round count in each target. TO wanted me to continue with the second pistol after the first pistol. I stopped and explained I can't because I have to finish with the rifle, and I will have the proper round count in each target. TO finally said to continue at that point, but it cost me time and a couple misses because of being flustered. Almost skipped the last stage, but decide not to and shot a clean stage with my best time for the day. If I would have done what the TO wanted it would have pushed me into a P. Time was bad enough with the two misses. Whew! WW WOW-talk about your classic 'P' trap scenario............. OLG
Westwood Willie Posted July 1, 2018 Posted July 1, 2018 It was a stage at the Ohio State Shoot, borrowed. I was hot, tired, thirsty, bad knee and legs hurt, next to the last stage. That was why the Whew! I had studied the stage at home and was ready for it. WW
Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 Posted July 1, 2018 Posted July 1, 2018 Interesting topic..as you said you knew the stage writing intent but shot it differently which is still hopefully legal so to speak. If it had said left to right or right to left then yes there would be a 'P. I may be wrong but I've always thought a sweep was the following target, moving forward not back & forward unless a nevada. My call would be a P'
Major Crimes Posted July 1, 2018 Posted July 1, 2018 At my club you woulda got a slap across the back of the head for being a smart alec and a beer after for having a go
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 My bet, is that Creeker wrote the stage..... OLG
Rye Miles #13621 Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 59 minutes ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said: Interesting topic..as you said you knew the stage writing intent but shot it differently which is still hopefully legal so to speak. If it had said left to right or right to left then yes there would be a 'P. I may be wrong but I've always thought a sweep was the following target, moving forward not back & forward unless a nevada. My call would be a P' + 100000
Yusta B. Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: No hanging... But I'm not sure that I'm allowed to ever return to that club or range. Which is going to be tough considering I'm that clubs president. Hmm. Well - take yourself out, have a couple beers, give yourself a good talking to and .......... SMILE !
Yusta B. Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said: Interesting topic..as you said you knew the stage writing intent but shot it differently which is still hopefully legal so to speak. If it had said left to right or right to left then yes there would be a 'P. I may be wrong but I've always thought a sweep was the following target, moving forward not back & forward unless a nevada. My call would be a P' I kinda feel like this -- if there should not be "intent" as far as a shooter's actions, the stage writer has to live with the same ground rules. To me a sweep means you have to shoot all the appropriate targets for the gun. If you want them shot in a specific order then it should be written that way. JMHO
Michigan Slim Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 I do believe there is more than one 'sweep' out there! Got to say which one ya want or you get the ones you get.
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 Around here, a plain "sweep" is continuous progression from one END of the target array to the other end. And though an "outside-outside-inside-inside-middle" order may be a sequence, it would not be a sweep. And that sequence would not be a PLAIN sweep, which is what I read from the stage instructions. A progressive sweep thus goes from one end to the other, adding one to the number of taps the next target gets. Calling special sequences that don't move in just one direction a sweep seems wrong, with the only exception being a Nevada. So, I'd also P the shooter. Good luck, GJ
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 2, 2018 Author Posted July 2, 2018 2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: My bet, is that Creeker wrote the stage..... OLG I did not. I would have either specified exactly what I expected or would have been encouraging creativity. No one else agreed with my creative shooting and I did receive a P. But it was hot and everyones sense of humor was short. I still think I was legal to do what I did as there are plenty of "sweeps". And what I did conformed to the instructions within the stage. I grudgingly accepted the penalty but point out that the shooter is not required to do what you expect... Only what you instruct.
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 2, 2018 Author Posted July 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Around here, a plain "sweep" is continuous progression from one END of the target array. Good luck, GJ Not to be too contrary; but the listing is called the glossary of sweeps. Not sequences Quote
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 Not the only grammatical error in the handbooks.... Good luck, GJ
Lead Monger Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 I would say you did not shoot a sweep and earned a P.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 It's a P. A call out for a simple "Sweep" is just that. You decided to put and adjective in front of the word "Sweep". Phantom
El Hombre Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 I would say no call as it says two sweeps but does not say what type of sweeps that are to be shot
Wyatt Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 Been here, done this, lost the battle...........curious who wins the war
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 9 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: Not to be too contrary; but the listing is called the glossary of sweeps. Not sequences 9 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Not the only grammatical error in the handbooks.... Good luck, GJ Where would one find the "glossary of sweeps" in any of the SASS handbooks?
Tn Tombstone Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 Creeker, I have done the same thing and lost the same fight but it was well worth it.
Noz Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 6 hours ago, Noz said: Clean! Next shooter and good thinking cowboy. I too saw a flaw in stage writing and told the RO how I was going to shoot the stage. He agreed that I was correct. I shot the stage, he caved to the complaints of the other shooters. I demanded a reshoot which was granted.
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 10 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: I did not. I would have either specified exactly what I expected or would have been encouraging creativity. No one else agreed with my creative shooting and I did receive a P. But it was hot and everyones sense of humor was short. I still think I was legal to do what I did as there are plenty of "sweeps". And what I did conformed to the instructions within the stage. I grudgingly accepted the penalty but point out that the shooter is not required to do what you expect... Only what you instruct. Sounds like we now have the 'Creeker Sweep'. OLG
Riverboat Red, SASS #71733 Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 "The shooter is not required to do what you expect... Only what you instruct." I think this should be burned into a plaque and posted at every stage. For the record, no P. The instructions did not call out "plain", "simple", "common" or "regular", just "sweep". But I like creativity, especially at a monthly. If I was clever enough to think of doing what you did I would have and expected/accepted the P.
Wyatt Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 http://www.blackriverregulators.com/pdf_files/A Glossary of Sweeps.pdf A Glossary of Sweeps Compiled by Crooked River Bob SASS#26199 Amended and edited by Okie Sawbones SASS#77381 Ozark Sweep: From Red River Ralph (SASS#49760, AR). Ten shots on five targets, first 1-5-2-4-3, then 3-2-4-1-5. Red River Ralph suggested using two revolvers for this. Compare to the Chatanika Sweep.
Shooting Bull Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, Riverboat Red, SASS #71733 said: "The shooter is not required to do what you expect... Only what you instruct." I think this should be burned into a plaque and posted at every stage. For the record, no P. The instructions did not call out "plain", "simple", "common" or "regular", just "sweep". But I like creativity, especially at a monthly. If I was clever enough to think of doing what you did I would have and expected/accepted the P. I'm going to go in a different direction. You don't need to call out "plain", "simple", "common" or "regular" because just "sweep' means just that, a sweep. On the other hand, if you wanted anything other than just a "plain", "simple", "common" or "regular" THAT'S when you need to specify. Sorry Creeker my friend, I'd have given you a P.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 2, 2018 Posted July 2, 2018 18 minutes ago, Riverboat Red, SASS #71733 said: "The shooter is not required to do what you expect... Only what you instruct." I think this should be burned into a plaque and posted at every stage. For the record, no P. The instructions did not call out "plain", "simple", "common" or "regular", just "sweep". But I like creativity, especially at a monthly. If I was clever enough to think of doing what you did I would have and expected/accepted the P. Yeah well...that's because a "Sweep" is just that. It's like asking for water. Not Lemon Water, not Carbonated Water...just Water. Obviously some of you don't write stages. Now you want us to have to add "Standard" or "Generic" or...whatever to the word "Sweep" when we want folks to...Sweep. Good gawd... OY!!! Phantom
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