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National champion ?


Hells Comin

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Winter Range has always been a fun and challenging match to shoot. It runs very well and has much to offer the competitors as well as visitors. I know there is lots of hard work by many people to put on such a match and it’s much appreciated. 

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1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

Doesn't say American Championship, doesn't say US Nationals . Says Nationals.

 

Splitting hairs aren't we, do you really think it needs to be spelled out?  I believe that any American fifth grader would understand what is implied when he or she reads or hears.... "SASS NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" and that we aren't talking about the Peruvian or Canadian Nationals!

 

When we hear the NATIONAL anthem, we pretty well know what nation is being mentioned, we don't need it spelled out.

When we say "One NATION, under GOD.....", we pretty well know what nation we are pledging to, we don't need it spelled out.

 

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And the World Series doesn't have any teams from anywhere other that

1 hour ago, Deadeye George said:

 

Splitting hairs aren't we, do you really think it needs to be spelled out?  I believe that any American fifth grader would understand what is implied when he or she reads or hears.... "SASS NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" and that we aren't talking about the Peruvian or Canadian Nationals!

 

When we hear the NATIONAL anthem, we pretty well know what nation is being mentioned, we don't need it spelled out.

When we say "One NATION, under GOD.....", we pretty well know what nation we are pledging to, we don't need it spelled out.

 

I'm responding to people that are splitting hairs by doing the same.   What about the World Series?    Don't see much of the world involved in that.   The National Football League holds games in London and Mexico.  Will they change their name if all of a sudden they add teams from those cities?   It's pretty simple really, we have a policy that we've followed and I don't know of anyone that said "BEFORE" the match - "If someone from another country can win, I won't come?"  Sounds petty.  The simple answer is to shoot better and be glad of the competition. 

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20 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

"Sass National championship of cowboy action shooting "

 

Please fell free to look up the definition of national champion ships.

Yours truly HC

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51 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

"Sass National championship of cowboy action shooting "

 

Please fell free to look up the definition of national champion ships.

Yours truly HC

Here's one .......

 

National championship. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. A national championship(s) is the top achievement for any sport or contest within a league of a particular nation or nation state. The title is usually awarded by contests, ranking systems, stature, ability, etc.

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These matches, even the biggest, can be named whatever the organizers choose. Why out of all the once a year annual matches do some choose to include, state, regional, national, etc. In the match name.  Can a state have 3 matches designated as "blank state championship?  Why bother to designate a geographic boundary in the match title?

 

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This is an object lesson for MD's and aspiring MD's.  No matter how hard you work or how much time and effort are poured into putting on a match there will always be 3 to 5% that will complain.  As I noted earlier, if people that attended the match are genuinely concerned about this issue (and perhaps imply to our foreign shooters they are less than totally welcome) they should note it on the comments form which will be sent out shortly.  Match names, just like names for various activities around the world, can have whatever name the organizers choose.  I have seen several events promoting themselves as the Galactic Championships.  Anyone from Mars showing up?  

 

Just as a short bit of history.  Winter Range was originally billed as "National Old West Shooting Competion."  That was the name of the event and is a registered tradename for Winter Range.  End Of Trail was still just plain EOT.  Several years after Winter Range was created EOT added "The World Championship of Cowboy Action Shooting" to their moniker.  This took place in 1995.  When that happened SASS contracted with WInter Range to be the "National Championship of Cowboy Action Shooting" and that name was adopted in 1996.  There is nothing in the contract about foreign shooters being ineligible to receive awards.  Again, submit your comments, they will be reviewed and discussed.  And YES those comments are frequently acted on and changes implemented.

Scan 2016-4-26 19.34.21.jpeg

EOT 95 Stages.jpg

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I am guessing that if I make some smart alec comment about Aussies winning Yankee comps right now my black mark count may jump suddenly:ph34r:

 

For what it is worth no matter where I shoot in Aust everyone I have spoken to has a wish to compete at Winter Range or EOT its our dream shoot. No one would give a damn plugged nickle what titles we could or couldnt win its all about meeting you folks and soaking up some of the genuine Cowboy ambiance and bonhomie:wub:

 

Having said that we will rub it in that an Aussie has won EOT:P

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22 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

I am guessing that if I make some smart alec comment about Aussies winning Yankee comps right now my black mark count may jump suddenly:ph34r:

 

For what it is worth no matter where I shoot in Aust everyone I have spoken to has a wish to compete at Winter Range or EOT its our dream shoot. No one would give a damn plugged nickle what titles we could or couldnt win its all about meeting you folks and soaking up some of the genuine Cowboy ambiance and bonhomie:wub:

 

Having said that we will rub it in that an Aussie has won EOT:P

 

I remember well when Sam won! What a great guy he is. It was pleasure for us to spend some time getting to know him. Fantastic shooter and great guy all the way around. 

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Don't forget Canada Kid who won the overall (HOA) at Winter Range several years back.  He was from Canada

 

Goatneck

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3 hours ago, Colt Faro, SASS #54579 said:

 

I remember well when Sam won! What a great guy he is. It was pleasure for us to spend some time getting to know him. Fantastic shooter and great guy all the way around. 

I watched him shoot for the first time late last year after he had a break from shooting due to an injury.

I was scoring for him and I swear he was so fast on one of his pistol strings his 2nd shot hit the target before the first:rolleyes:

Truthfully though the two other scorers and I looked at one another and asked how the hell can you score that when all you hear is one long ding?

We agreed we didnt see any misses so they must all be hitsB)

Then he was TO for me when I dropped a pistol (unloaded) and he handled it very well and helped me learn. Thats not easy for a younger guy to do when dealing with a more mature gentleman (regardless of the experience difference, this was my first national and comp away from my home club) and he did it very well, speaks highly of his maturity and confidence.

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To me, "Nationals" has always implied US Nationals and I always thought it odd that State, Regionals and now Divisional recognized champions based on where you live (and yes, folks from everywhere are encouraged to attend and compete), but Winter Range does not.  Yes, definitely recognize the achievement if someone from another country wins, but award the National Champion title to someone from the US and send them on to compete at the World Championships.

 

EOT is the World Championships where the category can be won by anyone from around the globe.

 

I would not expect someone from the US who attends the European Nationals to earn their way to EOT through a win in Europe.  Clarification would be appreciated!

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Congratulations to our friends from other countries who shot so well at Winter Range. No one can fault you for shooting so well.

 

I am just in the camp that feels the Nationals should recognize the shooters from the USA as National Champions.

 

Please, if you rarely post, make your voice heard here.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I do not have a horse in this race as I'm fighting for not being last. It is just an opinion.

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I didn't shoot Winter Range but since Allie Mo encouraged our thoughts. I feel the top overall male / female and category champions of a state championship match needs to be from that state in the category even if they place last in their category behind any number of shooters from out of state , same thing for Regional, they need to be a resident of one of the states for that regional, for National they need to be a resident of one our 50 states and for EOT World it means world. All overall male/female winners plus category winners should be recognized regardless of their residence but not as overall male/female or category champions if outside of the definition of the above. Just my two cents...

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6 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

Here's one .......

 

National championship. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. A national championship(s) is the top achievement for any sport or contest within a league of a particular nation or nation state. The title is usually awarded by contests, ranking systems, stature, ability, etc.

image.png.3ed2699891a8d2dfff2266864e2d1a96.png    Wait a minute . . . that's our NATIONAL League.  

image.png

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Allie Mo has stated, make your voices heard. For us, shooting SASS for over 13 yrs, Hells Comin's post was a surprise 'cause we just didn't know WR recognized foreign (very good) shooters as WR National Champions. Never paid attention. BUT, it ultimately makes sense that the WR Board should play by the same rules that all other state & above matches are held to by SASS. Why should Winter Range be any different just because "that's the way we always done it"? Unless there's a change in policy by them before '19, maybe SASS should reconsider recognizing WR as the "SASS US National Championship". Or, otherwise, take away the "rule" that says we can't go to a other state/divisional/regional match & win a championship buckle!!!!

Just sayin'

DC

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I shot a state match a few years ago where I was not a resident and the "state champion" in the category I shot in finished dead last of all the shooters in the whole match. Just didn't seem right then and doesn't now.

kR

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12 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

Doesn't say American Championship, doesn't say US Nationals . Says Nationals.

 

With all due respect, that dog don't hunt.

 

You hold a national match in a nation, and the National Champ should be from that nation.

 

To try and say 'it just says nationals' and try to sidestep which nation is silly at the least, and misleading at the worst if that was the match officials intent.

 

I understand that matches, especially Winter Range doesn't want to 'have to' hand out yet another award for each and every category.  Not a problem, give the match winner the match winner award, and the National champion a national champion buckle.  Might have to change the inscription on the trophy, but that's easy enough to do.

 

IMO if you hold a national, state or regional and recognize someone from outside that nation, state, or region as the nation, state or regional champion, it negates completely the whole idea behind even having a national, state, or regional match.  

 

Match winners should receive awards and recognition for the match, but National, State, or Regional Champions should be from the geographic area that the match is for.

 

That's the view from my saddle.

 

 

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Just a question for our shooting pards north on the border. If we go to the SASS Canadian National Championship match at Kamloops, & win in our category as US citizens, would we win the Canadian National Champion award?

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Let’s take it a step further. To be a true “National” championship, you would have to qualify to participate. For instance, only “State champions” from each category could participate.

Then, the “National” champs could participate in the “World” championship. (EOT)

I’m sure SASS would like that…….

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I know of no other indiviual sport in the world that operates like this 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Swiss Kid, SASS #54030 said:

Let’s take it a step further. To be a true “National” championship, you would have to qualify to participate. For instance, only “State champions” from each category could participate.

Then, the “National” champs could participate in the “World” championship. (EOT)

I’m sure SASS would like that…….

 

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17 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

These matches, even the biggest, can be named whatever the organizers choose. Why out of all the once a year annual matches do some choose to include, state, regional, national, etc. In the match name.  Can a state have 3 matches designated as "blank state championship?  Why bother to designate a geographic boundary in the match title?

 

 

Because they are, in fact, state, regional, national, etc championships.  They have to be approved by SASS before they're allowed to include the title in the match name. As an example my home club, The Eldorado Cowboys, holds their annual match in April.  It's called Best Shoot By a Dam Site.  Then in October they hold Eldorado, the Nevada State Championship.  They're both annual matches but only one is approved by SASS to be our state championship match.  And no, a state can not have more than one match designated as their championship. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Swiss Kid, SASS #54030 said:

Let’s take it a step further. To be a true “National” championship, you would have to qualify to participate. For instance, only “State champions” from each category could participate.

Then, the “National” champs could participate in the “World” championship. (EOT)

I’m sure SASS would like that…….

 

We do qualify to participate.  It's just that our qualifications standards are different than other sports.  Have to be a current member of SASS and have to pay your entry fee.  Bingo, you're qualified.

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31 minutes ago, Swiss Kid, SASS #54030 said:

What about track and field? Maybe you could sign-up for the next world championship.

If I had a sanctioned qualifying 100 meters time of 8.4, I certainly could   Being national champion of Lithuania at 10.5 would not get me in.   

 

I believe Shootin Bull(above) covered the qualification aspect very well

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10 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

I shot a state match a few years ago where I was not a resident and the "state champion" in the category I shot in finished dead last of all the shooters in the whole match. Just didn't seem right then and doesn't now.

kR

Unsure why that doesn't seem right? He was the best shooter from that state, registered in that Category, at that State Championship so he (or she) would be the State Champion in that category.  That is a perfect example of why we recognize all State Champions first at the Tennessee State Match, before we start the Category awards.

 

Randy

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11 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

I shot a state match a few years ago where I was not a resident and the "state champion" in the category I shot in finished dead last of all the shooters in the whole match. Just didn't seem right then and doesn't now.

kR

 

Let's pose that same question in a different way.  Three years from now the Left Handed Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter With A Limp, Only One Eye And Only Three Fingers On His Right Hand Category gets approved by SASS.  (Don't laugh.  It could happen.)  Buzzed Kill With a Vengeance, the State of Confusion Championship match only gets one entrant for that category.  Is he any less or more of a state champion than your last place finisher?

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2 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Let's pose that same question in a different way.  Three years from now the Left Handed Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter With A Limp, Only One Eye And Only Three Fingers On His Right Hand Category gets approved by SASS.  (Don't laugh.  It could happen.)  Buzzed Kill With a Vengeance, the State of Confusion Championship match only gets one entrant for that category.  Is he any less or more of a state champion than your last place finisher?

 

Another actual situation.  Several European shooters joined a U.S. club.  They came and shot as much as they could.  That club hosted a large Regional for several years.  After several years a European shooter finally wins that Regional at their home club.  Do they get the award?

 

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47 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

Another actual situation.  Several European shooters joined a U.S. club.  They came and shot as much as they could.  That club hosted a large Regional for several years.  After several years a European shooter finally wins that Regional at their home club.  Do they get the award?

 

 

The short answer is no, they may win 1st place in their category but they are not the regional champion for that category.

It's like a Snowbird shooting in Arizona. They may shoot in Arizona for months, but unless they change their residency to Arizona they cannot be the state champion.

 

BS

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The National Hockey League was founded at little over 100 years ago, and was exclusively  Canadian.  National = Canadian.  Then they let in U.S. teams, which have won the championship many times.  Never did the NHL give the Stanley Cup to the second, third, or last place finisher.  But I wouldn't mind if they did.  It's their League.  So it's just a name.

 

When you start to exclude participants based on residency, you are on a slippery slope, as I'm sure the SASS member who are attorneys can explain.  You don't have to be a U.S. citizen to be a U.S. resident.  Many illegal immigrants are residents.  Deportable residents, but nonetheless residents.  Residency is a state of mind.  If I leave Texas and arrive at the Motel 6 in Arizona; decide I'm going to stay indefinitely; decide to not return to my former residence in Texas; decide that the Motel 6 room I'm renting is my new residence, I've just changed states of residency.  I may run afoul of Arizona law if I fail to comply with Arizona new resident laws, but I'm a resident.   The legal experts will no doubt tell you there is a lot more to the law than I've mentioned.  As a favor for a ranch employee, I once thoroughly researched "residency" for an employee arrested and towed for driving with a Mexico drivers license.  The judge accepted my research brief on residency and its interaction with the 1943 Inter-American Convention on the regulation of Inter-American Automotive Traffic, dismissed charges and ordered the refund of all fines and towing.  I did not represent any specific person.  I merely passed on to him the Texas Attorney General's email agreeing with my research.

 

Bottom line, I don't care what the club or SASS decide to call it.  If WR becomes the National Flaming Pink Flamingo Match, it's still the greatest cowboy match going, no slight intended to EOT.  Secondly, I've met and made friends with some of the greatest international guest participant cowboy shooters, literally in the world.  

 

While the club solicits and listens to my views, it's their match and whatever the Arizona Territorial Company of Rough Riders and SASS want to do is fine with me.   

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4 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Let's pose that same question in a different way.  Three years from now the Left Handed Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter With A Limp, Only One Eye And Only Three Fingers On His Right Hand Category gets approved by SASS.  (Don't laugh.  It could happen.)  Buzzed Kill With a Vengeance, the State of Confusion Championship match only gets one entrant for that category.  Is he any less or more of a state champion than your last place finisher?

Getting one entrant for a category is significantly different than having five or six and having the last place finisher getting 1st.

 

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5 hours ago, Mack Hacker, #60477 said:

I know of no other indiviual sport in the world that operates like this 

 

 

 

I'm trying to think of one that doesn't operate like that. Track and field, tennis, swimming, ice skating, etc. They all have a qualifying system that is generally predicated on winning at lower levels to advance. If not, then a cumulative point system. When I competed heavily in martial arts, you had to qualify for nationals or go in as a wild card, which meant having to fight a lot more people just to get into the national and world tournament.   I am not advocating SASS do this, but did want to clarify your statement saying that it doesn't happen. On the matter, I basically couldn't care less one way or the other. But I am no where near that level of competition, so perhaps I would care more if I were. I just want to go to Winter Range for the experience. Hopefully next year.

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23 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

These matches, even the biggest, can be named whatever the organizers choose. Why out of all the once a year annual matches do some choose to include, state, regional, national, etc. In the match name.  Can a state have 3 matches designated as "blank state championship?  Why bother to designate a geographic boundary in the match title?

 

No you cant have 3 state Championship matches in the same state in the same year! Those matches that are titled state, regional, national, world are named to reflect what they actually are. My personnel observation has been SASS recognizes / sanctions only 1 state championship match by contract on a yearly basis. You can name your match whatever is to your liking, but there is still only 1 recognized state match per year. I have to imagine that the contracts for regional, national and other matches is similar!

 

Yes....... we had the Intergalactic Universe wobble trap Championship at the New Mexico state Championship match last year, but the Klingons and Martians didn't contract to hold it so we sponsored by default:lol: Besides, the IFOP didn't object!

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28 minutes ago, Captain Clark said:

No you cant have 3 state Championship matches in the same state in the same year! Those matches that are titled state, regional, national, world are named to reflect what they actually are. My personnel observation has been SASS recognizes / sanctions only 1 state championship match by contract on a yearly basis. You can name your match whatever is to your liking, but there is still only 1 recognized state match per year. I have to imagine that the contracts for regional, national and other matches is similar!

 

Yes....... we had the Intergalactic Universe wobble trap Championship at the New Mexico state Championship match last year, but the Klingons and Martians didn't contract to hold it so we sponsored by default:lol: Besides, the IFOP didn't object!

Does this count for black powder matches as well? We have a California State Championship match and also a California State black powder championship match. As far as I know, both are SASS sanctioned.

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