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Creeker, SASS #43022

Base Categories

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Hmmm.

 

I "kinda" understand the new handbook and offering categories above and beyond the Base Category.

And requiring 7 entrants for recognition and 3 entrants for Ladies.

 

Here's my question - If the Base Category is the required category - what happens when the Base category is the underpopulated category?

Around here for Eldorado 2017 - there were FOUR Gunfighters - there were NINE Senior Gunfighters.

So Senior Gunfighter is a recognized Category - But the base Category of Gunfighter is no longer eligible for recognition?

 

And if the base category becomes ineligible, (obviously , we cannot place Gunfighters upward into an age based category that they do not qualify for), so do we condense downward to keep the base category competitive and eligible for recognition?

 

I honestly don't believe this is the case - but in my reading of the new handbook - these questions arise.

 
.

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  From what I understand (it may not apply to WR or EOT) but as MD which you are, you have the authority to grant ANY category and number in such as you wish to. "Maybe" Regional and above it's more strict on categories allowed and minimum of how many for each.

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45 minutes ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

  From what I understand (it may not apply to WR or EOT) but as MD which you are, you have the authority to grant ANY category and number in such as you wish to. "Maybe" Regional and above it's more strict on categories allowed and minimum of how many for each.

Charlie, that seems to be the case for monthlies and "club" annuals, so for an event like Dam Site.

But it specifically calls out state and above events as having a requirement of a specified quantity of entrants for recognition.  

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As I read it there are 19 total categories that must be honored at State and above matches. These 19 categories have no minimum number of entrants. The Base categories include:

 

Open which also happens to includes participants between the ages of 16 and 36

Buckaroo

Buckarette

16 and under

36 and up

49 and up

60 and up

65 and up

Elder Statesman

Grand Dame

Cattle Baron

Cattle Baroness

El Patron

La Patrona

Duelist

Gunfighter

Classic Cowboy

B-Western

Frontier Cartridge

Frontiersman

 

All others are optional and need only be honored at state and above matches if the minimum number of participants are entered.

All matches below state level, Categories offered / honored are at the Match Directors discretion.

 

I am sure I am mis-reading it but it would be nice if the base categories were actually spelled out in one place.

 

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The Frontier Cartridge Duelist shooters are gonna scratch their heads.  Will they be Frontier Cartridge shooters (not many duelists can compete with 2- handers) or are they now Duelists (a good stiff wind might make Blackpowder even with Smokeless but would we count on that?). 

 

Im thinkin’ FCD, one of the most fun categories for other competitors and guests to watch, just got lynched.

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  So, if I'm getting this, right a smaller size State shoot (100 or less) will have to turn people away because SASS wants a minimum number of entrants. That's going to kill more than one State shoot that doesn't have a population base to support what SASS mandates in per category numbers. OR force someone to shoot a category they didn't want to shoot because the bean counters say there aren't enough to meet what SASS says there has to be. Makes me wonder if SASS is trying to drive shooters away.

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Creeker,. Well now that you've caused me to spend the last two hours reading the new. Rule book, I'll give it a shot.

 

The way I read it is that you must always allow shooters in the Base Categories, no matter how many entrants you have.  Sub-categories, such as senior gunfighter, must have a minimum of seven entrants.  In you're example, you'd have 4 Gunfighters and 9 Senior Gunfighters.

 

In the age based "Base Categories" though, you'd have to drop down the 2 Grand Patrons and the 2 Cattle Barons to join the 3 Elder Statesmen in order to have the 7 required to make up the Elder Statesman Category.

 

I hope that's right anyway!

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The new Handbook is very confusing. It states that you must OFFER all combinations of the categories and then must HONOR all those categories that meet the minimum number of entrants.

Minimum for female categories is 3. Minimum number for Open category is 7. (Open is defined in the new SHB as Cowboy and Cowgirl). The new SHB does not state how many must be entered in a base category to be recognised.

Onward we go.

 

BS

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19 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

The new Handbook is very confusing. It states that you must OFFER all combinations of the categories and then must HONOR all those categories that meet the minimum number of entrants.

 

BS

Yeah, I like that part too.  The authors of the handbook cannot be bothered to list every permutation of category available but match directors are expected to offer them.  And somehow figure out with enough lead time to order awards what obscure combination is going to attract three lady shooters. 

I'm just waiting for the first 3 ladies desiring to shoot Ladies 49'r, Frontier Cartridge, B-Western Duelist.

And by the wording of the new handbook, (offer ALL combinations), this category is available and would have to be honored.

It would be nice if SASS would cease pandering to every single shooter that desires and (now) can create their own category.

Create a category list of "X" number of defined categories and be done.

 

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11 hours ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

  So, if I'm getting this, right a smaller size State shoot (100 or less) will have to turn people away because SASS wants a minimum number of entrants. That's going to kill more than one State shoot that doesn't have a population base to support what SASS mandates in per category numbers. OR force someone to shoot a category they didn't want to shoot because the bean counters say there aren't enough to meet what SASS says there has to be. Makes me wonder if SASS is trying to drive shooters away.

 

right! at the WV state shoot we didnt have 7 in any category... what are we supposed to do? i think the most we had in any category was 5...

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7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Yeah, I like that part too.  The authors of the handbook cannot be bothered to list every permutation of category available but match directors are expected to offer them.  And somehow figure out with enough lead time to order awards what obscure combination is going to attract three lady shooters. 

We're setting up for Bordertown as this discussion continues. I told the President of the Board that they'll need to back up their cut-off for category changes by two months. But, Bordertown fills up a week after apps are available. I don't know what/how the shoots are going to manage this when they have apps trickling in.

Administrative nightmare.

 

BS

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3 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

Administrative nightmare.

 

 

I can’t remember if I have ever seen a registration form that says “first choice category/second choice category/third choice category “, but I think it’s coming.  :ph34r:

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You do what you have to do. The MD can make ANY call that has to be made. END OF STORY!

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4 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

You do what you have to do. The MD can make ANY call that has to be made. END OF STORY!

 

Will the competitor who wins his/her category as the only entrant in that category at a State Championship match be able to purchase one of those trophy belt buckles from SASS after the SASS person verifying the win sees that there were “not enough” folks shooting in that category?

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12 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

The new Handbook is very confusing. It states that you must OFFER all combinations of the categories and then must HONOR all those categories that meet the minimum number of entrants.

Minimum for female categories is 3. Minimum number for Open category is 7. (Open is defined in the new SHB as Cowboy and Cowgirl). The new SHB does not state how many must be entered in a base category to be recognised.

Onward we go.

 

BS

 

So is there a change? I thought cowboy/cowgirl was open to ANY age..not just those UNDER 36.

As you can always 'shoot down' - so over the weekend i shot cowboy (i'm 55).  Was that somehow wrong? Changed?

 

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31 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

I can’t remember if I have ever seen a registration form that says “first choice category/second choice category/third choice category “, but I think it’s coming.  :ph34r:

 

I've actually since that once or twice in 11 years of this game.

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1 hour ago, Duncan Disorderly said:

 

So is there a change? I thought cowboy/cowgirl was open to ANY age..not just those UNDER 36.
 

 

No change to the age description, but they have been grouped as "Open".

 

BS

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2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Will the competitor who wins his/her category as the only entrant in that category at a State Championship match be able to purchase one of those trophy belt buckles from SASS after the SASS person verifying the win sees that there were “not enough” folks shooting in that category?

I doubt that they ask for the number of people in the category.

 

You should email SASS HQ to know for sure.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I was the 2017 CA State Champion LS WBAS Modern and 2017 CA State Champion L B-W! Maybe I should buy one. ;)

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6 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

It would have been nice if SASS had the opportunity to float this idea for a little discussion to help answer what are going to be lots of questions.  This is a MAJOR change that doubles or triples the number of categories offered by state level and above matches.  For years the TGs have been very reluctant to add an infinite number of new categories.  SASS has excercised its perrogative to formulate the rules as it sees best.  However, this unannounced major shift in policy will have administrative as well as financial impacts.  Three times the categories equals three times the cost for awards unless fewer or cheaper awards are given out.  Awards are not free.  Adding categories does not increase match revenue.  It merely makes the slices of the pie smaller.  I've been to some matches where they are giving out coffee mugs for first place.  They might have to start giving out Dixie cups.

+1

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CASS is a simple game.  I don't understand the penchant for complicating the heck out of it.

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I doubt that they ask for the number of people in the category.

 

You should email SASS HQ to know for sure.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I was the 2017 CA State Champion LS WBAS Modern and 2017 CA State Champion L B-W! Maybe I should buy one. ;)

 

It would not bother me at all if you bought both!  :D

 

Quoting from page 10 in the Handbook,  "If an offered category does not meet the minimum mandates, the entrant(s) will be entered into the next category down as the categories collapse toward the base categories until the minimum mandate is fulfilled," with some categories excepted.  I don't shoot Frontier Cartridge Duelist often, but it has been a recognized category for many years.  If there are not enough FCD shooters to make the minimum at a state match, will it be collapsed into Frontier Cartridge or Duelist?  Personally I think shooting with other Duelists would keep me more competitive rather than being lumped with the two-handed Frontier Cartridge competitors.  Will I be given the option to switch to Duelist , or is the MD required to keep me in Frontier Cartridge just because I originally signed up for a black powder category? Remember, black powder is legal in any category.

 

If Snakebite is correct and the MD chooses to allow single entrant categories to be recognized,  will SASS still sanction the match?  I do not ask the question for myself; I have bought more than one of those buckles but only when I had fellow competitors in the category.   But I see some frustration down the road for competitors who have invested and practiced hard in one category only to find they won't have a chance to prove themselves.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 said:

"At the end of the day", (I hate that saying), it will always be the MDs call no matter how many there are in any category...

Is it the MD's call to decide what categories to offer?

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20 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Is it the MD's call to decide what categories to offer?

I think what Creeker has said is....

The new Handbook REQUIRES a State or above Match Director to offer all BASE Categories listed no matter how few are in the category. It does not address the problem of the BASE categories not meeting minimums.

 

I don't think a lot of thought went into the consequences of the follow up statement in the handbook......

If an offered category does not meet the minimum mandates, the entrant(s) will be entered into the next category down as the categories collapse toward the base categories until the minimum mandate is fulfilled. 

This does not take into consideration that an offered category may cause the BASE category to not meet minimum.

This happen regularly at  shoots where the total number of participants is 200 or less.

In addition, the handbook seems to suggest that BASE women's categories that do not meet the minimum be incorporated into bi-gender or non-gender category.

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I never concidered FCD to be a sub cat before.

That category will be no more at the state matches around me.

 

Maybe I'll just get together with the other FCD's , enter whatever officially, and declare our OWN catagory and bring our own awards. 

Sultan Of Smoke is more fun anyways.

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1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Is it the MD's call to decide what categories to offer?

I wish it were.

I would end this debate in a hurry.

 

Open categories - pistols may be shot supported/ any SASS legal equipment/ propellant

Under 13 - male & female (may use 22 cal for rifle and pistol and smaller ga. shotguns) (may move to older categories with approval of match officials)

13 - 17  m&f (shooters may move up to the 18 - 59 cat)

18 - 59  m&f

60 - 69  m&f (shooters may drop down in age to 18 + cat)

70 - 74 m&f  (shooters may drop down to any cat 18+)

75 - up m&f  (shooters may drop down to any cat 18+)

 

Duelist - pistols shot one handed unsupported/ any SASS legal equipment/ propellant

18 - 59 m&f

60 - up m&f (shooters may drop down in age to 18 + cat)

 

Black Powder - pistols shot one handed unsupported/ any PRE 1874 design SASS legal equipment/ must use BP or approved subs/ leather must be of a traditional era correct design - appearance

18 - 59 m&f

60 - up m&f (shooters may drop down in age to 18 + cat)

 

Gunfighter - pistols each shot one handed unsupported/ may have two loaded pistols out of holster at same time/ any SASS legal equipment/ propellant

18 - 59 m&f

60 - up m&f (shooters may drop down in age to 18 + cat)

 

Classic - pistols shot one handed unsupported/ any PRE 1874 design SASS legal equipment/ all ammo must meet a minimum 150 power factor/ leather must be of a traditional era correct design - appearance

18 - 59 m&f

60 - up m&f (shooters may drop down in age to 18 + cat)

 26 total categories

 

Minimally three deep recognition at shoots up to 200 shooters

Minimally five deep at shoots above 200 shooters

Match Directors may recognize more shooters per category if desired.

 

Costuming would be required in ALL categories with listed minimums and legality check lists.

Failure to abide by costuming minimums would result in ineligibility for awards.

 

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Once upon a time.....

 

Don't all fairy tales start that way?

 

"The rest of this post has been deleted by the poster in order to maintain his sanity!"  :wacko:

 

The End

 

 

 

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I want to shoot in the Senior, Graying but not Totally Gray, Retired Military, Germanic, Independent Voter, REAL black Powder Frontiersman category.

 

 

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sigh.....I'm not opposed to shooting with the LGFs....did that at Ohio State, but I like being a LFCGF....not my fault there just ISN'T very many of us...anywhere!  Setting minimum requirements really screws up those of us in smaller categories....tho at least I can shoot LBW (another one that can be small) if given enough notice to bring the other set of guns....or if necessary I'm not too proud to shoot with the fellas.....:unsure::unsure:

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Mr. John Henry, would you settle for half of them?

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6 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Will the competitor who wins his/her category as the only entrant in that category at a State Championship match be able to purchase one of those trophy belt buckles from SASS after the SASS person verifying the win sees that there were “not enough” folks shooting in that category?

Pretty unlikely that will happen. The categories are rolled back until the minimum number is met. 

Snakebite

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28 minutes ago, John Henry Quick said:

I want to shoot in the Senior, Graying but not Totally Gray, Retired Military, Germanic, Independent Voter, REAL black Powder Frontiersman category.

 

 

Great, come on out to Fort Miller. I'll put that category in for you... in fact, if you can't make it just sign up, send me your entry fees and I'll just mail you your award. No problem at all. 

 

Snakebite

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16 minutes ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

Mr. John Henry, would you settle for half of them?

 

 

You know me, brother B.S.  I'm a horrible shooter, yet I always have fun.  I changed category on Sunday from Frontiersman to Duelist just so Potter County Kid could have someone to beat and get a certificate.  He's a hell of a shooter and it would have been a shame for him to go unrecognized...  :P

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