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Creeker, SASS #43022

Base Categories

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26 minutes ago, Calico Mary said:

sigh.....I'm not opposed to shooting with the LGFs....did that at Ohio State, but I like being a LFCGF....not my fault there just ISN'T very many of us...anywhere!  Setting minimum requirements really screws up those of us in smaller categories....tho at least I can shoot LBW (another one that can be small) if given enough notice to bring the other set of guns....or if necessary I'm not too proud to shoot with the fellas.....:unsure::unsure:

 

 

I'm glad to see you're not above shooting with us poor, ignorant apes.  :D

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well, it ain't like there's much chance I'd beat any of ya.....

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6 minutes ago, Calico Mary said:

well, it ain't like there's much chance I'd beat any of ya.....

 

Ha!  You ain't seen me shoot! 

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5 minutes ago, Calico Mary said:

well, it ain't like there's much chance I'd beat any of ya.....

 

Really...why don't you ask the guys that Half a Hand Henri entered to shoot against in 3 BIG shoots and won all 3. Pick a Gender and stay with it, OR let men who according to SASS don't have any categories move over and shoot in a ladies category. See how long that will fly.

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As I understand it, multiple categories were established to level the competition in consideration for shooting style, age, sex, and propellant, to allow shooters the chance for getting recognition from their fellow competitors.  To feel good about their efforts.  Collapsing categories works to oppose that goal.  If these are not true statements, then just list all shooters on one page in total time.  See how many come back next year.  See how many kids want to start out shooting against Matt Black and Missouri Lefty.  Or Seniors for that matter.

 

SASS is cutting its own throat.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

Really...why don't you ask the guys that Half a Hand Henri entered to shoot against in 3 BIG shoots and won all 3. Pick a Gender and stay with it, OR let men who according to SASS don't have any categories move over and shoot in a ladies category. See how long that will fly.

 

Half a Hand Henri is a LOT better shooter than I am.....all I meant is that if I can't shoot LFCGF or even LGF because there's just not enough of us, I'd rather come in last in FCGF than shoot LW or L49.....and I've joked with plenty of fellas that they outta shoot LFCGF with me!   

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9 minutes ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

Ha!  You ain't seen me shoot! 

 

yu ain't seen me shoot neither!:P

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Creeker

How did arrive at the above??

I was simply playing if I were "King of SASS"

 

A little bit of logic - self impressions and personal opinions.

 

As for the age breakdowns - I tried to keep them in line with what "I" have actually seen as changes in skill level vs age (watching myself and shooters around me)

I really don't think anyone under 60 "needs" or deserves age protection from the big mean 18 year olds. 

You want to play?  Then play.  Cherish your win - accept your loss.

After all, aren't half the western movies about the aging gunfighter dueling it out with the new young gun in town?

 

After 60 -  in a number of cases, I have seen shooters skillsets begin to decline and in order to continue their competitive feeling in the game; I feel they may deserve some protections (some, not all shooters of that age - there are still an awful lot of 60+ shooters that can kick my butt and for them - they are not being forced into any age bracket)

 

Style categories - different challenges requiring separations

 

Propellant - if you are going to shoot a BP category - shoot it in the style the guns would have been shot and with the equipment thereof (I am not completely locked into the date cutoffs)

Classic becomes a power factor category - same principles.

 

Mandatory costuming with a defined set minimum level (well above our current standards) becomes integral to EVERY category - eliminating the need for so called costume categories.

 

The categories are easy to define/ explain and control.

 

And solely my opinion.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

I think what Creeker has said is....

The new Handbook REQUIRES a State or above Match Director to offer all BASE Categories listed no matter how few are in the category. It does not address the problem of the BASE categories not meeting minimums.

 

I don't think a lot of thought went into the consequences of the follow up statement in the handbook......

If an offered category does not meet the minimum mandates, the entrant(s) will be entered into the next category down as the categories collapse toward the base categories until the minimum mandate is fulfilled. 

This does not take into consideration that an offered category may cause the BASE category to not meet minimum.

This happen regularly at  shoots where the total number of participants is 200 or less.

In addition, the handbook seems to suggest that BASE women's categories that do not meet the minimum be incorporated into bi-gender or non-gender category.

What is the minimum for a Base Catagory?

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3 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

What is the minimum for a Base Catagory?

Don't know - but there seems to be a SASS implemented 7 male and 3 female participation mandate for recognition.

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I am guessing that the folks who put together the rule book were not the types to play Dungeons and Dragons in their parent's basement on the weekend. (I grew up in California we didn't  have basements so had to take over the dining room table for a few hours at a time).  This is an age old argument for game designers (of which I am an amateur hobbyist).  In a nutshell, what are the most important stats to define a character. The following is just my opinion.

 

In SASS there are too many qualifications-

Age- Only need three- Kids, adults, senior.  Kids are anyone under 18, Adults are anyone under 65 and seniors are anyone over 65.

 

Gender- ditch this altogether.  Most of the women I know are better shots than I am and this is not a game in which gender grants a distinct advantage and to be honest it's a little sexist.  The org would probably attract more lady shooters if a more contemporary outlook were adopted.

 

Costume-  SASS is a shooting sport first, the funny clothes are fun but it is not a living history organization, that's the NCOWS folks.  Costume should be a separate animal altogether and either play no part in competition at all OR it should be the primary method by which a shooter builds their entire rig and load out.  For example, you pick a period of fashion and stick to it from soup to nuts, shoes to guns.  Which is a neat idea (i think) but you end up with the same problem.  If no one else dresses in the same era you do then your category gets the boot. pun intended.  This dips into NCOWS territory too as you tend to build a persona as you put together your outfit according to your tastes.  I know there are a lot of folks in SASS who just don't have any interest in that level of re-creation, they just want to shoot. Any fashion choice should be able to shoot any style.

 

Shooting Style- The most important aspect by which to categorize competition, hands down. Asking duelists to compete with 2 handed users is just weird.  Unless you have a bionic thumb you give up way too much advantage to the two handed shooter in speed and accuracy.  You can make a similar argument for pump and lever  shotguns vs. coach guns too.  That one would be tougher, some of you folks are hellacious fast when it comes to shucking those spent shells.

 

Ammunition Choice- I love black powder, love the smell, love the smoke. I love that it makes the game more difficult (remember I am the new guy who wants the targets farther away) but in all honesty to fair up the competition I think that Frontier Cartridge needs to be a side match or a stand alone competition OR everyone needs to shoot it because it's more historically accurate, I mean we didn't really have a workable smokeless powder until the 1880's right?  And no patented version in the US until the late 1890's?  I don't see everyone switching over to FC though.  Not everyone likes it, it does present significant health risks by comparison and I imagine some clubs would get in trouble with their ranges for producing tons of BP smoke.

 

Aaaaannnnndddd I have killed enough time at work putting in my vastly inexperienced opinion .  I, of course, bow to the more experienced shooters in the room.

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5 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Don't know - but there seems to be a SASS implemented 7 male and 3 female participation mandate for recognition.

I sure don't read it that way. I may be wrong, but it says pretty plainly that categories above the base categories will only be honored if they meet the minimum. I do not believe that there is a minimum in the base categories... at least not according to the verbiage in the SHB.

 

Snakebite

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Just go back to the way things were in 2008. We had more shooters then and less complaining. There were 29 categories at WR.  

Let's just keep things simple, good grief. This is like trying to interpret the tax code.

 

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

I sure don't read it that way. I may be wrong, but it says pretty plainly that categories above the base categories will only be honored if they meet the minimum. I do not believe that there is a minimum in the base categories... at least not according to the verbiage in the SHB.

 

Snakebite

That is the way that I read it as well

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"However, categories above the base categories will only be honored if they meet the minimum entry mandates decreed by SASS and the Championship agreements. Ladies’ categories must have a minimum of three entrants and open categories must have a minimum of seven entrants in order to be honored at the SASS Championship level. Exceptions to the category mandate include Buckaroo/Buckarette, Junior, Elder Statesman/Grand Dame, Cattle Baron/Cattle Baroness, and El Patron/La Patrona. If an offered category does not meet the minimum mandates, the entrant(s) will be entered into the next category down as the categories collapse toward the base categories"

 

To me, this says that the base category will always be honored, but the "extra" combinations will only be honored if they meet the minimum number. As an example, say you have 3 gunfighters and two people want to sign up as senior gunfighter. In this example, they would collapse into a single gunfighter category (the base category). It still would not meet the "7 minimum," but since it is a base category, it would be honored. The same would apply to senior duelist, silver senior classic cowboy, b western cross dresser, or any other non-base category combination.

 

Please correct me if I am reading this wrong.

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Stirrup Trouble,

 

I read it differently. As they mentioned "in the book" categories as being exempt, I think that those not mentioned could be subject to movement to another category. For example, Wranglers could be changed to Cowboy or Cowgirl.

 

You are correct about combination categories like Senior GF, if offered.

 

BTW,  Cowboy and Cowgirl are also exempt as they have nowhere else to go. Plain GF has no where to go except FCGF or BW. In both of those the shooter would have to make drastic changes. I do not feel a GF should be forced to change.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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25 minutes ago, StirrupTrouble said:

 It still would not meet the "7 minimum," but since it is a base category, it would be honored. 

Where in the new SHB do you find a reference to 7 minimum for the base categories? 

 

BS

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2 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Where in the new SHB do you find a reference to 7 minimum for the base categories? 

 

BS

I don't, but it was referenced above as being across the board, which is why I put it in quotes

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2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Don't know - but there seems to be a SASS implemented 7 male and 3 female participation mandate for recognition.

 

Creeker,

  I just came from our club board meeting and this topic was brought up since we're the club that hosts the State shoot. Our club president called and talked to Misty today. SHE told him the minimum number of shooters in a category only applies to Regional and above. State level is still up to the MD as to what categories and number in each will be allowed. Apparently the new SHB was misquoted.

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1 minute ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

Creeker,

  I just came from our club board meeting and this topic was brought up since we're the club that hosts the State shoot. Our club president called and talked to Misty today. SHE told him the minimum number of shooters in a category only applies to Regional and above. State level is still up to the MD as to what categories and number in each will be allowed. Apparently the new SHB was misquoted.

Good to know, as I thought I was going to have to revamp everything planned for April. They should edit the book, as the book says "State Level and above"

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On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 5:56 AM, J-BAR #18287 said:

The Frontier Cartridge Duelist shooters are gonna scratch their heads.  Will they be Frontier Cartridge shooters (not many duelists can compete with 2- handers) or are they now Duelists (a good stiff wind might make Blackpowder even with Smokeless but would we count on that?). 

 

Im thinkin’ FCD, one of the most fun categories for other competitors and guests to watch, just got lynched.

 

The SHB (p.9) lists the three primary (base) categories under "BP/Frontier Cartridge" in the same section as they have the same regs & restrictions regarding propellant and firearm parameters. 

The way I read this, FC, FCD, and FCGF remain as "stand alone" base categories as they have been for some time, as approved by the Territorial Governors.

They MAY BE further subdivided by gender and age.
 

Quote

 

Categories include:

- Frontier Cartridge.

- Frontier Cartridge Duelist.

- Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter.

 

Frontier Cartridge Rules: 

- Any main match fixed sight model revolver

- Revolvers may be shot two handed or one handed (Duelist style) in Frontier Cartridge category but only one handed in Frontier Cartridge Duelist category.  (See Duelist style description for parameters.)

- If shooting Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter, only Gunfighter-style or Double Duelist style may be used.  (See Gunfighter style description for parameters.)

- Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun)


 

 

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5 minutes ago, StirrupTrouble said:

Good to know, as I thought I was going to have to revamp everything planned for April. They should edit the book, as the book says "State Level and above"

 

Yep, page 10
 

 

MINIMUM ENTRANT CATEGORY MANDATES

In the interest of ensuring and promoting a true competitive environment at the SASS Sanctioned Championship level of competition (State, Regional, Divisional, National, and World Championships), all possible category breakdowns will be offered. However, categories above the base categories will only be honored if they meet the minimum entry mandates decreed by SASS and the Championship agreements. Ladies’ categories must have a minimum of three entrants and open categories must have a minimum of seven entrants in order to be honored at the SASS Championship level.

 

(bold added)

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8 minutes ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

Creeker,

  I just came from our club board meeting and this topic was brought up since we're the club that hosts the State shoot. Our club president called and talked to Misty today. SHE told him the minimum number of shooters in a category only applies to Regional and above. State level is still up to the MD as to what categories and number in each will be allowed. Apparently the new SHB was misquoted.

Everybody should go actually read the new handbook.  Particularly page 10.   Part of it reads:

  1. MINIMUM ENTRANT CATEGORY MANDATES

    In the interest of ensuring and promoting a true competitive environment at the SASS Sanctioned Championship level of competition (State, Regional, Divisional, National, and World Championships), all possible category breakdowns will be offered. However, categories above the base categories will only be honored if they meet the minimum entry mandates decreed by SASS and the Championship agreements. Ladies’ categories must have a minimum of three entrants and open categories must have a minimum of seven entrants in order to be honored at the SASS Championship level.

State level matches are clearly included.

 

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2 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

The SHB (p.9) lists the three primary (base) categories under "BP/Frontier Cartridge" in the same section as they have the same regs & restrictions regarding propellant and firearm parameters. 

The way I read this, FC, FCD, and FCGF remain as "stand alone" base categories as they have been for some time, as approved by the Territorial Governors.

They MAY BE further subdivided by gender and age.
 

 

 

 

The outline format of the SHB clearly shows FCD as a subcategory of Frontier Cartridge. Copied from Page 9:

 

Frontier Cartridge Category/Categories

Frontier Cartridge can be subdivided to specific style (e.g.., Frontier Cartridge Duelist, Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter), by gender (e.g., Lady Frontier Cartridge Duelist, etc.) and further by Age (e.g., Senior Lady Frontier Cartridge Duelist, etc.) depending upon demand and sanctioning category mandates.

Categories include:

-  Frontier Cartridge.

-  Frontier Cartridge Duelist.

-  Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter.

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PWB, if you are reading this, please clarify which is correct. The SHB, or what Misty told Creeker's club?

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+1 PW

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4 minutes ago, StirrupTrouble said:

PWB, if you are reading this, please clarify which is correct. The SHB, or what Misty told Creeker's club?

 

It wasn't Creeker's club. Misty told MY club's President when he called her that it applies to regional and above,...NOT State level. It wouldn't be the 1st time something was printed and had to be revised.

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Just now, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

It wasn't Creeker's club. Misty told MY club's President when he called her that it applies to regional and above,...NOT State level.

Thanks for the correction. I get confused easy :)

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1 minute ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

It wasn't Creeker's club. Misty told MY club's President when he called her that it applies to regional and above,...NOT State level.

Then that will be the first amendment to the new policy.

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The BP "shooting style" categories, most recently FCGF, were approved as "officially recognized" categories on their own.

If this has changed, and they are now subject to being "rolled into" plain old FC for major sanctioned matches, I know quite a few BP competitors who will simply refuse to attend those events that neither offer, nor recognize them as such.

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12 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

 

The outline format of the SHB clearly shows FCD as a subcategory of Frontier Cartridge. Copied from Page 9:

 

...

 

I copied & quoted that same section...FCD and FCGF are "subcategories" only by virtue of being subject to the same basic set of regulations.

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2 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I copied & quoted that same section...FCD and FCGF are "subcategories" only by virtue of being subject to the same basic set of regulations.

 

I think you can understand why there is confusion.

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This is why there needs to be a CLEARLY DEFINED list of what the actual base categories are.

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5 hours ago, Snakebite said:

What is the minimum for a Base Catagory?

The new handbook does not say?

 

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