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Creeker, SASS #43022

Base Categories

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14 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Since it all seems to be up for grabs - can we add a “Western Streaker” category?  

 

Respectfully Submitted by my contemplated alter ego - Buck Nekkid

 

 

Only if you supply all of your posse mates with one of these!  :blink:

 

old-lincoln-welding-mask-hood-weld-welde

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Dogmeat Dad 

That final list makes so much sense I understood it the first time. 20 categories and everybody gets to play. Just pick a category and shoot. Simple!

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5 hours ago, Snakebite said:

This whole thing is becoming little more than a PI$$ING contest. If the Wonderfulness of your awards is so much more important than servicing the Shooters, then just provide them for the Base categories. All it takes is a couple of hits on the keyboard to breakout all of the sub categories, and a piece of paper saying that they won can be printed on the spot. It's just that Simple! With today's computer scoring, there is no legitimate reason to not do it. 

 

Snakebite

You seem to be awfully free with my clubs time and money.

Maybe awards don't matter to you, but awards and their "wonderfulness" do matter to most shooters - We don't provide crap awards and a printed out piece of paper is not going to cut it.

(see the EOT awards fiasco this year - if you don't think awards matter)- 

So a SIMPLE request like knowing exactly what the categories are - how many of them exist and exactly how best to honor these categories is not a PI$$ING contest, but an operational cost that every single match director in SASS is going to have to factor in.

 

And words matter - the new handbook says ALL combinations of categories must be offered and it says at all SASS Championship matches.

We have already heard that the ALL championship matches may be an error - perhaps the ALL combinations wording is as well.

 

And If you think breaking out the categories is a simple matter of a few keystrokes...

ALL combinations means ALL possible age groups multiplied by ALL possible shooting styles  multiplied by ALL possible propellants multiplied by ALL possible costuming categories multiplied by ALL possible genders.

 

In other words

9 age groups x 3 shooting styles (supported, duelist, GF) = 27 age and style cats

27 age and style cats x 3 propellant methods (smokeless, frontier cartridge, C&B) = 81 age/ style/ propellant cats 

81 age/ style/ propellant cats x 2 costuming categories = 162 age/ style/ propellant/ costuming cats

162 age/ style/ propellant/ costuming cats x 2 genders = 324 possible categories.

 

324 MANDATORY offered categories - that have to be honored if somehow seven male shooters or three lady shooters end up agreeing on the same thing.

And if there is not a 7 shooter consensus - somehow deciding how best to consolidate these choices to a manageable number and keep your customers happy.

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10 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

You seem to be awfully free with my clubs time and money.

Maybe awards don't matter to you, but awards and their "wonderfulness" do matter to most shooters - We don't provide crap awards and a printed out piece of paper is not going to cut it.

(see the EOT awards fiasco this year - if you don't think awards matter)- 

So a SIMPLE request like knowing exactly what the categories are - how many of them exist and exactly how best to honor these categories is not a PI$$ING contest, but an operational cost that every single match director in SASS is going to have to factor in.

 

And words matter - the new handbook says ALL combinations of categories must be offered and it says at all SASS Championship matches.

We have already heard that the ALL championship matches may be an error - perhaps the ALL combinations wording is as well.

 

And If you think breaking out the categories is a simple matter of a few keystrokes...

ALL combinations means ALL possible age groups multiplied by ALL possible shooting styles  multiplied by ALL possible propellants multiplied by ALL possible costuming categories multiplied by ALL possible genders.

 

In other words

9 age groups x 3 shooting styles (supported, duelist, GF) = 27 age and style cats

27 age and style cats x 3 propellant methods (smokeless, frontier cartridge, C&B) = 81 age/ style/ propellant cats 

81 age/ style/ propellant cats x 2 costuming categories = 162 age/ style/ propellant/ costuming cats

162 age/ style/ propellant/ costuming cats x 2 genders = 324 possible categories.

 

324 MANDATORY offered categories - that have to be honored if somehow seven male shooters or three lady shooters end up agreeing on the same thing.

And if there is not a 7 shooter consensus - somehow deciding how best to consolidate these choices to a manageable number and keep your customers happy.

 

+ 1000...you always do a good job and put on great shoots. Those of us that have shot them appreciate all you and your club has done. Thanks Creeker, Box Herder, Charming and all of those that help you put on those shoots.

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If we're spitballin' here let's look at this way:


Select Category (Required):

[ ] Open

[ ] Cowgirl (Women Only)

[ ] Junior (Under 17)

 

Select Costume (Required):

[ ] Cowboy

[ ] Classic Cowboy

[ ] B-Western

 

Select Stance (Required):

[ ] Modern (Two-Handed)

[ ] Duelist (Required for Classic Cowboy)

[ ] Gunfighter

 

Select Propellant (Required)

[ ] Smokeless

[ ] Black Powder

[ ] Frontiersman

 

Age Category (Choose One):  Please note: that Categories may be collapsed should there not be enough competitors in your selected Category.

[ ] Buckaroo/Buckarette (13 and under)

[ ] Junior (14-16)

[ ] Cowpoke (17+)

[ ] Wrangler (36+)

[ ] 49er (49+)

[ ] Senior (60+)

[ ] Silver Senior (65+)

[ ] Elder (70+)

[ ] Baron/Baroness (75+)

[ ] Codger [80+]

 

Optional Categories (May not be awarded, if there are not enough competitors):

[ ] Double Duelist

[ ] Outlaw

[ ] Steampunk

[ ] Blindfolded

[ ] Nekked (I got my boots and hat on. Let me shoot, bye gummit!)

 

 

Does that pretty much sum up what the rules are thinkin?

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Thanks for the analysis Creeker,  as usual you have a gift for demonstrating unintended and unexpected consequences in the game’s operations.

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20 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Thanks for the analysis Creeker,  as usual you have a gift for demonstrating unintended and unexpected consequences in the game’s operations.

Oops, my mistake.

There are technically three costuming options per category. 

Regular folks, BWestern and Classic.  

That means that the 81 age/ style/ propellant cats must be multiplied by 3, not 2. 

Equaling 243 possible age/ style/ propellant / costuming categories. 

Multiplied by 2 for Gender equals 486 possible categories.

Sorry for my error.

I guess once you get to 324 possible; 486 seems reasonable as well.

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1 hour ago, Red Eye Jim said:

If we're spitballin' here let's look at this way:


Select Category (Required):

[ ] Open

[ ] Cowgirl (Women Only)

[ ] Junior (Under 17)

 

Select Costume (Required):

[ ] Cowboy

[ ] Classic Cowboy

[ ] B-Western

 

Select Stance (Required):

[ ] Modern (Two-Handed)

[ ] Duelist (Required for Classic Cowboy)

[ ] Gunfighter

 

Select Propellant (Required)

[ ] Smokeless

[ ] Black Powder

[ ] Frontiersman

 

Age Category (Choose One):  Please note: that Categories may be collapsed should there not be enough competitors in your selected Category.

[ ] Buckaroo/Buckarette (13 and under)

[ ] Junior (14-16)

[ ] Cowpoke (17+)

[ ] Wrangler (36+)

[ ] 49er (49+)

[ ] Senior (60+)

[ ] Silver Senior (65+)

[ ] Elder (70+)

[ ] Baron/Baroness (75+)

[ ] Codger [80+]

 

Optional Categories (May not be awarded, if there are not enough competitors):

[ ] Double Duelist

[ ] Outlaw

[ ] Steampunk

[ ] Blindfolded

[ ] Nekked (I got my boots and hat on. Let me shoot, bye gummit!)

 

 

Does that pretty much sum up what the rules are thinkin?

 

It's awful close, but not quite.

 

You have Juniors listed Category (your first option) as well as the Age Category, when it should only be in one place, and probably the Age category.  What you are selecting in the first decision is really gender preference, Men & Ladies Category (Open) or Ladies Only.

 

While Costuming preference is technically OK, there is the implication that a shooter could choose Classic Cowboy Gunfighter, when in fact that is not permissible under the rules of Classic Cowboy, they must shoot Duelist.  Same thing with B-Western, they are not restricted to any style and can mix and match as they see fit.

 

Other than that, you pretty much nailed it.  :blink:

 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Oops, my mistake.

There are technically three costuming options per category. 

Regular folks, BWestern and Classic.  

That means that the 81 age/ style/ propellant cats must be multiplied by 3, not 2. 

Equaling 243 possible age/ style/ propellant / costuming categories. 

Multiplied by 2 for Gender equals 486 possible categories.

Sorry for my error.

I guess once you get to 324 possible; 486 seems reasonable as well.

 

 

On the bright side, most matches can't handle 486 shooters and that will limit how many 1st place buckles you need to buy!  :rolleyes:

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Yep, that didn't clear it up much...

 

I was trying to setup Juniors without a sex bias, and clarify that CC meant Duelist.  I was going to add an additonal Age category at 90+ but I couldn't think of a funny way to say competing against Grimm Reaper...

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6 hours ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Since it all seems to be up for grabs - can we add a “Western Streaker” category?  

 

Respectfully Submitted by my contemplated alter ego - Buck Nekkid

 

as long as it's like BW and yu kin shoot any style.....I could go fer that!!!!!:D  (yeah, I know....I'd hafta be on my own posse as far away from everyone else as possible.....:blink:)

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I'm shooting 357s, squaw grip, smokeless and I'm older than dirt. Show me which way to go and I'l be happy and I don't care what it's called.

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Howdy, Noz!

 

Here's your shooters packet.  We have you signed up in the Older Than Dirt - Squaw Grippers category and we have taken the liberty to include your 1st Place buckle in the packet!

 

Enjoy the Shoot!

 

:lol:

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25 minutes ago, Noz said:

I'm shooting 357s, squaw grip, smokeless and I'm older than dirt. Show me which way to go and I'l be happy and I don't care what it's called.

Come shoot with me in Cattle Baron !

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2 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

 

 

On the bright side, most matches can't handle 486 shooters and that will limit how many 1st place buckles you need to buy!  :rolleyes:

Absolutely true.

I sincerely apologize for my previous pessimism.

As a club, we will only need blank buckles and a dymo labeling gun.

Oooh, a Sharpie will be even easier.

 

I don't even know why I was worrying about this.

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You seem to be awfully free with my clubs time and money.

How do you figure that? My suggestion was to only give those high dollar awards to the Mandatory categories, and just acknowledge the others. That is by no means being free with your money… it would save you money.

 

Maybe awards don't matter to you, but awards and their "wonderfulness" do matter to most shooters - We don't provide crap awards and a printed out piece of paper is not going to cut it.

I like awards, but awards don’t mean a THING if the category is not there! I would rather have the category and no award than to not have the category at all. If the cost of the award is the reason for not having a category, then the cost of awards should be reduced so that the categories that have enough shooters can be honored. Some of those categories can draw more shooters than the Base line category! They represent a lot of shooters who have been playing this game for a long time, and would like to continue to compete in the game. I do not believe that the lack of a high dollar award would dissuade them from entering. 

(see the EOT awards fiasco this year - if you don't think awards matter)- 

 

So a SIMPLE request like knowing exactly what the categories are - how many of them exist and exactly how best to honor these categories is not a PI$$ING contest, but an operational cost that every single match director in SASS is going to have to factor in.

Yes indeed, I’ve been doing it for 25 yrs and do in fact know a bit about it. The PI$$ING contest is about using the cost of awards as an excuse to not offer the categories. Obviously SASS agrees that is time to start offering up the extra categories if there are enough shooters to fill them. You are absolutely correct,  it needs to get straighten out, and I’m sure that it will be.  

 

And words matter - the new handbook says ALL combinations of categories must be offered and it says at all SASS Championship matches.

Yes it does say that. I don’t think that SASS is attempting to be “free” with your clubs time or money, and I'm sure that the wording will be corrected.  

 

We have already heard that the ALL championship matches may be an error - perhaps the ALL combinations wording is as well.

From what has been reported, the championship matches  portion appears to have a conflict about the State match requirements. I have not heard anything about the all combinations, but I know that SASS offers them at EOT, so I can’t see why it would not be followed at the lower official levels too.

 

And If you think breaking out the categories is a simple matter of a few keystrokes...

My apology on this. It is a simple matter at our club. I do not know how it is at yours. 

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1 hour ago, Noz said:

I'm shooting 357s, squaw grip, smokeless and I'm older than dirt. Show me which way to go and I'l be happy and I don't care what it's called.

 

NOZ!  I thought you wuz a Frontiersman...  That's soul-crushing news!  Next you'll be telling us that you sip on pumpkin-spiced lattes while cruising around in your Prius...

 

:D

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15 minutes ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

NOZ!  I thought you wuz a Frontiersman...  That's soul-crushing news!  Next you'll be telling us that you sip on pumpkin-spiced lattes while cruising around in your Prius...

 

:D

 

I've seen the Prius. If it helps, it has a pair of longhorn horns on the front, and a wagon wheel paintjob on the rims.

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1 hour ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

NOZ!  I thought you wuz a Frontiersman...  That's soul-crushing news!  Next you'll be telling us that you sip on pumpkin-spiced lattes while cruising around in your Prius...

 

:D

Oh ! The shame .......

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On 10/25/2017 at 9:02 PM, Ginny Hinny said:

Clubs already have time keepers.  I dont see this as a sport where politics come into play for a buckle.  If people were playing for large amounts of cash, then i see it becoming political. 

 

My thoughts are a bit as follows. 

Clubs have weekly, biweekly or monthly shoots.  They record those times in the SASS system?  Someone who is handy with word/excel documents can just copy/paste those times into a searchable database.

 

in my thinking, times per stage could be establshed by having the clubs send in or figure average times for each of their clubs stages in the past year or years.  So each stage at each clubs meets would have an established time.  Say the top (or record) time is 15 seconds (rounding up because i suck at math).  The bottom time average is around 25 seconds.  So a bracket could be established for that particular stage.  Say, the #1 shooters bracket  is comprised of everyone who shoots within the 15-16 second range.  #2 shooters are 16-18 second range.  I would handicap a 1/2 second per bracket as there would be far more shooters with higher set times then fast shooters.  You could set a number of brackets (say 6-7) that would be permanent and then have a beginners bracket where they are just learning to shoot and establish times.  Some would move up quickly, while others would stay within their time brackets.  But they could remain competitive with people who are shooting at the same level, no matter what that level is.  Awards would be merited per bracket.  A points system within their brackets could be established and earn them a right to shoot at regional and national matches within those brackets.  

 

For beginners to establish times, they would have to shoot a minmum 3 stages.  Use a revolving window to keep them moving up.  So they shoot a 27 second round average on the first three stages, they go home and practice, maybe go to a clinic and drop 5 seconds on their next 3 stages. That puts them in the 22 second average bracket.  They only gwt to shoot a single stage at the next match due to mechanical issues and score a 24 second time for an average of 23 seconds.

 

For each stage at a club, the bracket times could be listed.  Shooters would know exactly what times they would need to remain in their bracket for each stage.   To combat stages larger than others that take more time to complete you could assign a point system for each bracket during that stage.  

 

Confused yet?  All of these half baked ideas come from my experience in timed equine events.  Barrel racing, team sorting, youth rodeo...etc....so take it for what you paid for it, just putting my ideas onto paper. 

 

IDPA has something similar called 'classifiers' - you can shoot 2 or 3 IDPA matches before you MUST join IDPA and soon there after they want you to shoot a classifier - it's a standard or a few standardized stages so if you shoot it in PA or WA you shoot the same stage the same way, so times are comparable.  If you are faster than X you are a master, vs newbie (not sure their terminology).

If you shoot 'up' (faster) at 3 matches, then you re moved up in class - IF - there are enough shooters there in your category.

NRA/CMP base their medals on LAST year's results. If in say, rimfire sporter optical class the top 10% avg was 556, then to get a gold this year you need to do 556 or better, 546 to get a silver, etc. HOWEVER, they shoot the same course of fire year in and year out. But the concept still applies.

I know our last shoot everyone picked a category and got a chip (aka ribbon/prize/award/trophy). EVERY shooter. Hell, picking the 'right' category is as much part of hte game as shooting well! lol

If 'rank' could be calculated then so could awards - if the top shot is 150sec and they win, duh. If the second shot is 168, the third 275...that's nearly DOUBLE first place..do they get ANYthing at all, or are they too slow?

 

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On 10/26/2017 at 6:48 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Absolutely true.

I sincerely apologize for my previous pessimism.

As a club, we will only need blank buckles and a dymo labeling gun.

Oooh, a Sharpie will be even easier.

 

I don't even know why I was worrying about this.


Where do it say the award need mention the category?

"First Place" works for ANY and ALL categories. At least at smaller / local/monthly matches. So why not bigger matches?

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7 hours ago, Duncan Disorderly said:


Where do it say the award need mention the category?

"First Place" works for ANY and ALL categories. At least at smaller / local/monthly matches. So why not bigger matches?

First is first, that is true.

But I think folks pay a lot of money to attend shoots; between shooter fees, travel, lodging, meals, not to mention the costs in ammo, equipment and time.

I think the awards should represent an appreciation for the costs they have paid to attend.

A generic first place is not the same as an award that details the shoot, the category and the date.

And categories do matter;  first place in a category of thirty is more significant than first in a category of two.

There's no monetary benefit to this game; it's all about fun and a little recognition if you win.

Let's not try to diminish that moment in the sun when someone earns an award by lessening the quality of the awards or cheapening the victory. 

 

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43 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

And categories do matter;  first place in a category of thirty is more significant than first in a category of two.

 

 

To me, it matters who is in the category far more than how many bodies. The idea that some arbitrary number is the threshold of what is or is not “enough competition” is a joke. 

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8 hours ago, Smokestack said:

To me, it matters who is in the category far more than how many bodies. The idea that some arbitrary number is the threshold of what is or is not “enough competition” is a joke. 

The whole category system has become a joke.  Maybe it is time to just have two categories - Male and Female.  Everyone can shoot shoot what they want, dress how they want and shoot whatever propellant they want.  At the end we just award top male and top female and everyone else gets some sort of participation trinket.

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8 hours ago, Smokestack said:

To me, it matters who is in the category far more than how many bodies. The idea that some arbitrary number is the threshold of what is or is not “enough competition” is a joke. 

Absolutely correct. 

A Gunfighter category consisting of Lassiter and Widowmaker Hill would be more than sufficient competition for most anyone.

But since we do not have qualifiers or classifiers to ensure a certain level of competition, the only other method remaining to create that atmosphere is to enlarge the number of shooters within a given category.

And the odds of getting better competition out of a category is more likely in a cat of thirty than it is in a cat of three.

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What would be really helpful is knowing if the concerns brought up in this thread are even being addressed by the writer(s) of the handbook.

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16 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

What would be really helpful is knowing if the concerns brought up in this thread are even being addressed by the writer(s) of the handbook.

 

Yeah right:lol:

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On 10/24/2017 at 8:33 AM, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Will the competitor who wins his/her category as the only entrant in that category at a State Championship match be able to purchase one of those trophy belt buckles from SASS after the SASS person verifying the win sees that there were “not enough” folks shooting in that category?

i'm assuming that you are being sarcastic.   :) Wouldn't you be embarrassed to wear such a buckle?  It literally cheapens the  actual winners that beat folks.

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3 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

i'm assuming that you are being sarcastic.   :) Wouldn't you be embarrassed to wear such a buckle?  It literally cheapens the  actual winners that beat folks.

 

He did beat folks; he beat all the ones in that category that didn't bother to come to the match. 

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Just now, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

i'm assuming that you are being sarcastic.   :) Wouldn't you be embarrassed to wear such a buckle?  It literally cheapens the  actual winners that beat folks.

 

 

My buckles are from multiple entrant categories.  But I know some shooters who purchased buckles when they were the only entrant and I bet you do too.  I don’t get bothered about someone displaying such a buckle.  I can tell what kind of competitor they are when I see them shoot a stage.

 

The point of my question was that SASS apparently did not consider all the consequences of their decision.  

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Considering we have fewer shooters than we used to, we should cut the number of categories. Pretty basic economics isn't it. Awards are earned, they should not be given to people for choosing a category with little competition. Years ago awards were meaningful, now they are too plentiful and have little meaning.

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58 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

But I know some shooters who purchased buckles when they were the only entrant and I bet you do too.  I don’t get bothered about someone displaying such a buckle.

i don't know anyone that did but that doesn't mean that they're are any.  I just personally wouldn't. 

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Just now, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

i don't know anyone that did but that doesn't mean that they're are any.  I just personally wouldn't. 

 

We agree.

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