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Creeker, SASS #43022

Base Categories

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5 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

This is why there needs to be a CLEARLY DEFINED list of what the actual base categories are.

 

Can I like this about 20 times???

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14 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Everybody should go actually read the new handbook.  Particularly page 10.   Part of it reads:

  1. MINIMUM ENTRANT CATEGORY MANDATES

    In the interest of ensuring and promoting a true competitive environment at the SASS Sanctioned Championship level of competition (State, Regional, Divisional, National, and World Championships), all possible category breakdowns will be offered. However, categories above the base categories will only be honored if they meet the minimum entry mandates decreed by SASS and the Championship agreements. Ladies’ categories must have a minimum of three entrants and open categories must have a minimum of seven entrants in order to be honored at the SASS Championship level.

State level matches are clearly included.

 

I did read the handbook, then I called SASS and they told me that was not correct, that the rule only applied to Regional matches and above.  Seems to me that whoever made these new rules needs to print a complete list of what they consider base and open categories.  This thing reads like the tax laws.

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So if there are 8 people in duelist and 7 of them want to form a senior duelist category, they can do that, and leave one person in the base category?  There's no minimum for the base category, just for the categories above the base categories?  That's what it seems to say.

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That's how I read it also. But wait ! 

Three of them are women so now we have Ladie Duelist or maybe Ladie Senior Duelist and the rest fall back to Duelist base category.

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3 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

So, 2 men and one woman enter the senior frontier cartridge duelist category....then what? 

 

You can't complain....remember....there are NO men's categories.

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Just now, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

You can't complain....remember....there are NO men's categories.

I’m not much of a complainer, I’ll shoot in a category with anyone. My question is, does this meet the minimum, or not?

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1 hour ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

I did read the handbook, then I called SASS and they told me that was not correct, that the rule only applied to Regional matches and above.  Seems to me that whoever made these new rules needs to print a complete list of what they consider base and open categories.  This thing reads like the tax laws.

 

Thanks for posting this Jeb. No one in here seemed to want to believe what you were told when I told them what you said.

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Just now, Smokestack said:

I’m not much of a complainer, I’ll shoot in a category with anyone. My question is, does this meet the minimum, or not?

  If it's State level then it's up to the MD as to how many they require in a category. Above State level then there's a quota/minimum.

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24 minutes ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

Thanks for posting this Jeb. No one in here seemed to want to believe what you were told when I told them what you said.

Not dis-belief.  Just making sure we are all on the same page since what he was told is not what is in the rule book.  I hope everyone can see this is a problem that needs to be fixed.  This directive/mandate is raising a lot of questions.

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After reading all of this discussion...

 

Plop, plop, fizz, fizz. 

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SASS should issue a statement, clearly ending part of this debate. 

Do the mandated minimums apply to state matches or not ? 

The new book says it does. Other people say it does not. 

Lets have the answer so we can move on.

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Since SASS matches are timed events, why hasnt anyone come up with a bracket system based on times and not style of shooting or age? 

say keep the age groups easy.

youth is 5-13

advanced youth 13-18

adult 18-59

masters 60+

Then bracket those age groups according to times? 

#1 is the fastest time established at that stage +2 seconds

#2 is the next group shooting the next 2 second stage.

and so forth....

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6 hours ago, Ginny Hinny said:

Since SASS matches are timed events, why hasnt anyone come up with a bracket system based on times and not style of shooting or age? 

say keep the age groups easy.

youth is 5-13

advanced youth 13-18

adult 18-59

masters 60+

Then bracket those age groups according to times? 

#1 is the fastest time established at that stage +2 seconds

#2 is the next group shooting the next 2 second stage.

and so forth....

Hi Ginny,

 

I believe it has not been considered due to the extra time for someone to verify and calculate For paid staff, that time equals costs. Then, it would fall to a volunteer.

 

Also, would it be easy and open for all to see and independently verify that the groups were fairly and accurately determined?

 

I don't see it as practical for this sport/game.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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54 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

I believe it has not been considered due to the extra time for someone to verify and calculate For paid staff, that time equals costs. Then, it would fall to a volunteer.

 

 

Clubs already have time keepers.  I dont see this as a sport where politics come into play for a buckle.  If people were playing for large amounts of cash, then i see it becoming political. 

 

My thoughts are a bit as follows. 

Clubs have weekly, biweekly or monthly shoots.  They record those times in the SASS system?  Someone who is handy with word/excel documents can just copy/paste those times into a searchable database.

 

in my thinking, times per stage could be establshed by having the clubs send in or figure average times for each of their clubs stages in the past year or years.  So each stage at each clubs meets would have an established time.  Say the top (or record) time is 15 seconds (rounding up because i suck at math).  The bottom time average is around 25 seconds.  So a bracket could be established for that particular stage.  Say, the #1 shooters bracket  is comprised of everyone who shoots within the 15-16 second range.  #2 shooters are 16-18 second range.  I would handicap a 1/2 second per bracket as there would be far more shooters with higher set times then fast shooters.  You could set a number of brackets (say 6-7) that would be permanent and then have a beginners bracket where they are just learning to shoot and establish times.  Some would move up quickly, while others would stay within their time brackets.  But they could remain competitive with people who are shooting at the same level, no matter what that level is.  Awards would be merited per bracket.  A points system within their brackets could be established and earn them a right to shoot at regional and national matches within those brackets.  

 

For beginners to establish times, they would have to shoot a minmum 3 stages.  Use a revolving window to keep them moving up.  So they shoot a 27 second round average on the first three stages, they go home and practice, maybe go to a clinic and drop 5 seconds on their next 3 stages. That puts them in the 22 second average bracket.  They only gwt to shoot a single stage at the next match due to mechanical issues and score a 24 second time for an average of 23 seconds.

 

For each stage at a club, the bracket times could be listed.  Shooters would know exactly what times they would need to remain in their bracket for each stage.   To combat stages larger than others that take more time to complete you could assign a point system for each bracket during that stage.  

 

Confused yet?  All of these half baked ideas come from my experience in timed equine events.  Barrel racing, team sorting, youth rodeo...etc....so take it for what you paid for it, just putting my ideas onto paper. 

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31 minutes ago, Ginny Hinny said:

Confused yet?  All of these half baked ideas come from my experience in timed equine events.  Barrel racing, team sorting, youth rodeo...etc....so take it for what you paid for it, just putting my ideas onto paper. 

 

A system such as you propose has merit for events that have standardized exercises.

The barrels are such and such diameter - placed "X" number of yards apart, so on and so on.

Cowboy Action has no such "standard" to measure by.

 

One month - we may go for silly and technical - fast shooters average 25 seconds a stage.

Next month - all big and close and dumps - fast shooters are 16 seconds a stage.

Following month - Its all gimmicks and bonuses - where time on the score sheet is a hodge podge of results.

 

None of which are standardized nor will ever be repeated exactly at any one elses match - making the results non transferable club to club or event to event.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Ginny Hinny said:

Clubs already have time keepers.  I dont see this as a sport where politics come into play for a buckle.  If people were playing for large amounts of cash, then i see it becoming political. 

 

My thoughts are a bit as follows. 

Clubs have weekly, biweekly or monthly shoots.  They record those times in the SASS system?  Someone who is handy with word/excel documents can just copy/paste those times into a searchable database.

 

in my thinking, times per stage could be establshed by having the clubs send in or figure average times for each of their clubs stages in the past year or years.  So each stage at each clubs meets would have an established time.  Say the top (or record) time is 15 seconds (rounding up because i suck at math).  The bottom time average is around 25 seconds.  So a bracket could be established for that particular stage.  Say, the #1 shooters bracket  is comprised of everyone who shoots within the 15-16 second range.  #2 shooters are 16-18 second range.  I would handicap a 1/2 second per bracket as there would be far more shooters with higher set times then fast shooters.  You could set a number of brackets (say 6-7) that would be permanent and then have a beginners bracket where they are just learning to shoot and establish times.  Some would move up quickly, while others would stay within their time brackets.  But they could remain competitive with people who are shooting at the same level, no matter what that level is.  Awards would be merited per bracket.  A points system within their brackets could be established and earn them a right to shoot at regional and national matches within those brackets.  

 

For beginners to establish times, they would have to shoot a minmum 3 stages.  Use a revolving window to keep them moving up.  So they shoot a 27 second round average on the first three stages, they go home and practice, maybe go to a clinic and drop 5 seconds on their next 3 stages. That puts them in the 22 second average bracket.  They only gwt to shoot a single stage at the next match due to mechanical issues and score a 24 second time for an average of 23 seconds.

 

For each stage at a club, the bracket times could be listed.  Shooters would know exactly what times they would need to remain in their bracket for each stage.   To combat stages larger than others that take more time to complete you could assign a point system for each bracket during that stage.  

 

Confused yet?  All of these half baked ideas come from my experience in timed equine events.  Barrel racing, team sorting, youth rodeo...etc....so take it for what you paid for it, just putting my ideas onto paper. 

Sounds like you have put some thought into this system.

Just a couple questions.

I have been shooting for about 10 years and have only seen "standard stages" that would work with this when Lead Dispencer (and others) designed them so that shooters across the country could shoot the same stage to establish "World Records"

Otherwise I have never seen any two clubs have the exact same layout of targets, distance or order twice. In fact quite a few make it a point to have each stage be as unique as possible, not only month to month but also to differentiate themselves from other clubs. Plus (at least at my home club) you have different shooters each month, some just for fun types, some learners, some older/younger, some very fast. Thus you would be unable to establish an "average" because you do not have an "average" shooter or an "average" stage. Consider the normal 10-10-4 type stage. Could be rifle/pistol/shotgun or rifle/shotgun/pistol or shotgun/rifle/pistol or pistol/rifle/shotgun (assuming no rifle last). What sweep would be used? Last I saw there are about 45 named sweeps plus who knows how many that have no names. Target distance? movement between target banks? stand and deliver? Downrange or side to side? Flyers?

So many variables to consider that are unique to each club.

Keep up the brainstorming though.

New blood often sees a path that us older guys have missed.

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

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1 minute ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Sounds like you have put some thought into this system.

Just a couple questions.

I have been shooting for about 10 years and have only seen "standard stages" that would work with this when Lead Dispencer (and others) designed them so that shooters across the country could shoot the same stage to establish "World Records"

Otherwise I have never seen any two clubs have the exact same layout of targets, distance or order twice. In fact quite a few make it a point to have each stage be as unique as possible, not only month to month but also to differentiate themselves from other clubs. Plus (at least at my home club) you have different shooters each month, some just for fun types, some learners, some older/younger, some very fast. Thus you would be unable to establish an "average" because you do not have an "average" shooter or an "average" stage. Consider the normal 10-10-4 type stage. Could be rifle/pistol/shotgun or rifle/shotgun/pistol or shotgun/rifle/pistol or pistol/rifle/shotgun (assuming no rifle last). What sweep would be used? Last I saw there are about 45 named sweeps plus who knows how many that have no names. Target distance? movement between target banks? stand and deliver? Downrange or side to side? Flyers?

So many variables to consider that are unique to each club.

Keep up the brainstorming though.

New blood often sees a path that us older guys have missed.

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

I could see where she is coming from. When I used to shoot USPSA, you saw different target arrays and distances at every match, but there were a set of "classifier" stages designed by USPSA with set target size, distances, and order of engagement. These were submitted to nationals, and after a shooter had shot 8 of these stages, they would be classified as their skill level (Grand Master, Master, A, B, C, or D). Then at major matches, each class would be only scored against themselves (and there was still an overall). Only the "classifier" stages counted toward rankings. Not sure if this would work in SASS, but I think that is what she was referring to

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Just now, StirrupTrouble said:

I could see where she is coming from. When I used to shoot USPSA, you saw different target arrays and distances at every match, but there were a set of "classifier" stages designed by USPSA with set target size, distances, and order of engagement. These were submitted to nationals, and after a shooter had shot 8 of these stages, they would be classified as their skill level (Grand Master, Master, A, B, C, or D). Then at major matches, each class would be only scored against themselves (and there was still an overall). Only the "classifier" stages counted toward rankings. Not sure if this would work in SASS, but I think that is what she was referring to

Yes that was what I thought she was talking about as well. My wife deals with the same thing in her dressage, each level has a specific test pattern to be performed that is updated every two years. Each club uses the same ring dimensions, numbering system, turns, circles, walks, trots and so forth.

Around here the classifiers for USPSA are offered once per year sometimes twice. However they are using a standard target at preset distances with uniform firing positions. I do not speak for anyone but myself but the clubs I have visited buy steel from whomever they can get a good price, sometimes targets are figure cutouts, sometimes poppers of various sizes are used, some are homemade, plate racks range from 4-6 inch circles to 12 inch tombstones to 10 inch whiskey jugs. If you want true uniformity all clubs would have to have at least one stage where every club in the USA would have to have exactly the same targets, props, facades target distances, backgrounds (grass, dirt, trees, bushes etc) so on and so on.

Don't see that happening nationwide any time soon.

 

Regards and congratulations on your recent match.

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

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So how does this ‘base’ catagory requirement affect unofficial catagories, such as, Outlaw, Steampunk and any others?

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16 minutes ago, Cemetery said:

So how does this ‘base’ catagory requirement affect unofficial catagories, such as, Outlaw, Steampunk and any others?

There is no "base category" for those non-categories so there is no requirement to offer them.  So, presumably, MDs could add them in their discretion.

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On 10/24/2017 at 2:46 PM, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

delete

 

 

Like he said!

 

Can we just go back to bashing Rank Points again?  :blink:

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1 hour ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Sounds like you have put some thought into this system.

 

I have been shooting for about 10 years and have only seen "standard stages" that would work with this when Lead Dispencer (and others) designed them so that shooters across the country could shoot the same stage to establish "World Records"

Otherwise I have never seen any two clubs have the exact same layout of targets, distance or order twice. In fact quite a few make it a point to have each stage be as unique as possible, not only month to month but also to differentiate themselves from other clubs. Plus (at least at my home club) you have different shooters each month, some just for fun types, some learners, some older/younger, some very fast.

 

A points rating system could handle those variations, like in chess, table tennis, and disc golf.  Disc golf has divisions based on rating, gender, age, and pro vs am status.  If we added ratings, then we could have N factorial categories, where N is equal to the number of brain cells I have left after this next drink.

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What follows is a thought experiment.  Nothing said here should be taken as gospel, nor does it represent the opinions of any person, living or dead, any entity either past or present, or any Match Director, past present or future.  It is solely based on what I know, or thought I knew, and my personal opinions.  :o  Did that satisfy all of the legal disclaimer requirements?  :rolleyes:

 

I'm just going to throw this out there for what it's worth.  From what I have always understood (at least since FCGF became official) the "Official" category list is as follows:

 

image.png.7e4d576e1c4b0e543df98b45f306ff4b.png

 

That makes 18 "Official" categories, and double that to 36 when we count the Ladies categories. 

  • There are 9 Age Based Categories, Buckaroo, Young Gun, Cowboy, Wrangler, 49r, Senior, Silver Senior, Elder Statesman, & Cattle Baron, all of which shoot Two Handed.
  • There are 2 Smokeless Shooting Style Categories, Duelist & Gunfighter
  • There is 1 Smokeless Shooting Style Age Based Category, Senior Duelist
  • There are 2 Clothing based categories, Classic Cowboy and B-Western, although they also have equipment restrictions.
  • There are 3 BP based Categories, one for each shooting style, Frontier Cartridge (Two-Handed), FC Duelist, and FC Gunfighter
  • There is 1 Category for the BP Masochists, Frontiersman

Although one could debate the age breaks, this list pretty much covers everything.  

 

So, let's now consider what makes a category different enough that is warrants being a separate category.  Certainly, shooting style makes a competitive difference.  So that gets us to 3 Categories:

  • "Traditional" Two Handed
  • Duelist
  • Gunfighter

 

Throwing BP into the mix (it certainly has an impact on the competitiveness of a shooter), we end up now with 6 Categories,

  • "Traditional" Two Handed
  • Duelist
  • Gunfighter
  • FC "Traditional" Two Handed
  • FC Duelist
  • FC Gunfighter

 

Now lets add Cap & Ball into the mix, (because even Masochists like to play Cowboy) and we end up now with 7 Categories,

  • "Traditional" Two Handed
  • Duelist
  • Gunfighter
  • FC "Traditional" Two Handed
  • FC Duelist
  • FC Gunfighter
  • Frontiersman

 

Excluding the two Clothing Categories for the moment, that makes a total of 14 Categories when we include the Ladies Categories. EVERYTHING ELSE, and I do mean EVERYTHING, is an age break on one of the above categories.

 

Want to protect the 16 year old and younger shooters?  Fine, that's another age break (or two).

Want to protect the 60 year old and older shooters?  Fine, that's another age break.

Want to protect the 80 year old and older shooters?  Fine, that's another age break.

 

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.  Don't get me wrong, I have no real issue with the category list I posted earlier in this post, but by continually allowing age breaks to fracture the shooting style categories, we have unleashed a potentially terminal contagion.  At first, it was confined only to the Two Handed, smokeless, shooting style with 49r, then Senior, then Silver Senior, then Elder Statesman, then Cattle Baron, etc.  Then it infected the Duelist, smokeless, shooting style, with Senior Duelist, and Silver Senior Duelist.  Then it infected the Gunfighter, smokeless, shooting style with Senior Gunfighter.  Now it is spreading even farther into every shooting style.  Where does it end?  When everyone has their own category?

 

From my perspective, the "Base Categories" need to be defined as those categories where you can no longer eliminate one, and still have the competitor shoot in their chosen "Shooting Style", and that is the list of 7 categories I showed above (14 if you include the ladies).  Everyone who showed up to a match, could shoot in the Shooting Style of their choice, in one of those categories which makes them, at least to me, appear to be the minimal subset of the categories and thus would/should be the Base Categories.

 

So, let's expand it just a little bit and add Juniors, i.e. those under 16.  Throw in B-Western because they can shoot in any of the shooting styles on any stage at will, and are required to use an 1880 or later rifle.  And finally, throw in the Classic Cowboys because they are equipment, shooting style, and power factor limited, and they look good doing it.  That adds 6 total categories to the Base Categories, for a total of 20.

  • Juniors
  • "Traditional" Two Handed
  • Duelist
  • Gunfighter
  • FC "Traditional" Two Handed
  • FC Duelist
  • FC Gunfighter
  • Frontiersman
  • B-Western
  • Classic Cowboy

That's it, everything, and everyone, is covered in just 20 Base Categories, a reduction of 16 categories from what we have now.  Everything else is just an age break of one of the above, and could easily be added back in "IF THERE ARE ENOUGH COMPETITORS"!

 

Will some of the younger folks in these categories whoop-up on some of the older folks?  Probably.

Will some of the older folks in these categories whoop-up on some of the younger folks?  Probably.

Will this make the majority of shooters happy?  Probably not, and there in lies the problem.

 

Obviously, we can't expand the categories until everyone get a participation trophy in their shooter pack at registration, but we also cannot expect folks who have invested in many cases years of their lives, shooting one style, to be happy if they are forced to change from that.  They may grumble if moved into a compressed age bracket, but they will still shoot.  Tell them they have to change shooting style, and the result may be completely different.

 

I certainly don't have a crystal ball that will let me see the future, but I can predict with 99.9% accuracy that if what ever is decided doesn't make the shooters happy, they won't come back.  The 95% of the attendees who have little to no chance of winning anything, are the ones paying the bills so, at the end of the day, when all is said and done, we need to have decided one thing, and one thing only.  What will make the most shooters happy and bring in the most shooters to our matches?  The rest of the discussions, age breaks, minimum category numbers, number of categories, handicaps, brackets, etc, is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

So, that's my $0.02, and with it you can't even pay the sales tax on a stick of gum.  But, hopefully, something in there will at least get some folks thinking along new lines and maybe, just maybe, come up with a workable list.  All I know, is that between beating ourselves up with RP/TT discussions and the never ending category debates, we are spending an awful lot time starring at computer screens when we could be shootin!

 

Good Night to one and all,

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

mightyBigWords.jpg

 

 

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DD, not being picky, but ya missed the "/Lady Gunfigher (#12)' on yer list.....:P

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Dogmeat Dad, 

 

tried to send PM but it says you cannot receive messages; mailbox must be full?

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Disc golf has a rule that tournament directors have the option of requiring at least 3 people in a division.  I never knew anyone to enforce this rule, which often led to having several women's divisions with only one person competing in each division.  I asked a local TD to enforce the rule and he tried it for a while, but stopped because he found that most of the time, ladies would choose not to play a tournament if they couldn't compete in their chosen division.  It turned out that people tend to identify with a certain division/category, and they don't feel comfortable playing out of it.

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17 hours ago, Smokestack said:

I’m not much of a complainer, I’ll shoot in a category with anyone. My question is, does this meet the minimum, or not?

Well if I was as fast as you it wouldn't bother me either. :DLOL 

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6 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

What follows is a thought experiment.  Nothing said here should be taken as gospel, nor does it represent the opinions of any person, living or dead, any entity either past or present, or any Match Director, past present or future.  It is solely based on what I know, or thought I knew, and my personal opinions.  :o  Did that satisfy all of the legal disclaimer requirements?  :rolleyes:

 

I'm just going to throw this out there for what it's worth.  From what I have always understood (at least since FCGF became official) the "Official" category list is as follows:

 

image.png.7e4d576e1c4b0e543df98b45f306ff4b.png

 

That makes 18 "Official" categories, and double that to 36 when we count the Ladies categories. 

  • There are 9 Age Based Categories, Buckaroo, Young Gun, Cowboy, Wrangler, 49r, Senior, Silver Senior, Elder Statesman, & Cattle Baron, all of which shoot Two Handed.
  • There are 2 Smokeless Shooting Style Categories, Duelist & Gunfighter
  • There is 1 Smokeless Shooting Style Age Based Category, Senior Duelist
  • There are 2 Clothing based categories, Classic Cowboy and B-Western, although they also have equipment restrictions.
  • There are 3 BP based Categories, one for each shooting style, Frontier Cartridge (Two-Handed), FC Duelist, and FC Gunfighter
  • There is 1 Category for the BP Masochists, Frontiersman

Although one could debate the age breaks, this list pretty much covers everything.  

 

So, let's now consider what makes a category different enough that is warrants being a separate category.  Certainly, shooting style makes a competitive difference.  So that gets us to 3 Categories:

  • "Traditional" Two Handed
  • Duelist
  • Gunfighter

 

Throwing BP into the mix (it certainly has an impact on the competitiveness of a shooter), we end up now with 6 Categories,

  • "Traditional" Two Handed
  • Duelist
  • Gunfighter
  • FC "Traditional" Two Handed
  • FC Duelist
  • FC Gunfighter

 

Now lets add Cap & Ball into the mix, (because even Masochists like to play Cowboy) and we end up now with 7 Categories,

  • "Traditional" Two Handed
  • Duelist
  • Gunfighter
  • FC "Traditional" Two Handed
  • FC Duelist
  • FC Gunfighter
  • Frontiersman

 

Excluding the two Clothing Categories for the moment, that makes a total of 14 Categories when we include the Ladies Categories. EVERYTHING ELSE, and I do mean EVERYTHING, is an age break on one of the above categories.

 

Want to protect the 16 year old and younger shooters?  Fine, that's another age break (or two).

Want to protect the 60 year old and older shooters?  Fine, that's another age break.

Want to protect the 80 year old and older shooters?  Fine, that's another age break.

 

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.  Don't get me wrong, I have no real issue with the category list I posted earlier in this post, but by continually allowing age breaks to fracture the shooting style categories, we have unleashed a potentially terminal contagion.  At first, it was confined only to the Two Handed, smokeless, shooting style with 49r, then Senior, then Silver Senior, then Elder Statesman, then Cattle Baron, etc.  Then it infected the Duelist, smokeless, shooting style, with Senior Duelist, and Silver Senior Duelist.  Then it infected the Gunfighter, smokeless, shooting style with Senior Gunfighter.  Now it is spreading even farther into every shooting style.  Where does it end?  When everyone has their own category?

 

From my perspective, the "Base Categories" need to be defined as those categories where you can no longer eliminate one, and still have the competitor shoot in their chosen "Shooting Style", and that is the list of 7 categories I showed above (14 if you include the ladies).  Everyone who showed up to a match, could shoot in the Shooting Style of their choice, in one of those categories which makes them, at least to me, appear to be the minimal subset of the categories and thus would/should be the Base Categories.

 

So, let's expand it just a little bit and add Juniors, i.e. those under 16.  Throw in B-Western because they can shoot in any of the shooting styles on any stage at will, and are required to use an 1880 or later rifle.  And finally, throw in the Classic Cowboys because they are equipment, shooting style, and power factor limited, and they look good doing it.  That adds 6 total categories to the Base Categories, for a total of 20.

  • Juniors
  • "Traditional" Two Handed
  • Duelist
  • Gunfighter
  • FC "Traditional" Two Handed
  • FC Duelist
  • FC Gunfighter
  • Frontiersman
  • B-Western
  • Classic Cowboy

That's it, everything, and everyone, is covered in just 20 Base Categories, a reduction of 16 categories from what we have now.  Everything else is just an age break of one of the above, and could easily be added back in "IF THERE ARE ENOUGH COMPETITORS"!

 

Will some of the younger folks in these categories whoop-up on some of the older folks?  Probably.

Will some of the older folks in these categories whoop-up on some of the younger folks?  Probably.

Will this make the majority of shooters happy?  Probably not, and there in lies the problem.

 

Obviously, we can't expand the categories until everyone get a participation trophy in their shooter pack at registration, but we also cannot expect folks who have invested in many cases years of their lives, shooting one style, to be happy if they are forced to change from that.  They may grumble if moved into a compressed age bracket, but they will still shoot.  Tell them they have to change shooting style, and the result may be completely different.

 

I certainly don't have a crystal ball that will let me see the future, but I can predict with 99.9% accuracy that if what ever is decided doesn't make the shooters happy, they won't come back.  The 95% of the attendees who have little to no chance of winning anything, are the ones paying the bills so, at the end of the day, when all is said and done, we need to have decided one thing, and one thing only.  What will make the most shooters happy and bring in the most shooters to our matches?  The rest of the discussions, age breaks, minimum category numbers, number of categories, handicaps, brackets, etc, is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

So, that's my $0.02, and with it you can't even pay the sales tax on a stick of gum.  But, hopefully, something in there will at least get some folks thinking along new lines and maybe, just maybe, come up with a workable list.  All I know, is that between beating ourselves up with RP/TT discussions and the never ending category debates, we are spending an awful lot time starring at computer screens when we could be shootin!

 

Good Night to one and all,

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

mightyBigWords.jpg

 

 

I think you should remove Senior Duelist/Ladies Senior Duelist as they can be put in with the smokeless Duelist base...same as Gunfighter

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3 hours ago, Calico Mary said:

DD, not being picky, but ya missed the "/Lady Gunfigher (#12)' on yer list.....:P

 

Yep, I did. :blush:   The list that everyone should be focusing on though is the last one near the end.

 

Thanks.

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2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Dogmeat Dad, 

 

tried to send PM but it says you cannot receive messages; mailbox must be full?

 

J-Bar,

 

Never had to delete anything before, (I obviously don't use it much) but I just cleared some stuff.  I had things in there 11 years old!

 

Thanks,

DD

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37 minutes ago, NannyOakley said:

I think you should remove Senior Duelist/Ladies Senior Duelist as they can be put in with the smokeless Duelist base...same as Gunfighter

 

Yes, that was done on the final list at the end of the post.  That is the list that everyone should be looking at.

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This whole thing is becoming little more than a PI$$ING contest. If the Wonderfulness of your awards is so much more important than servicing the Shooters, then just provide them for the Base categories. All it takes is a couple of hits on the keyboard to breakout all of the sub categories, and a piece of paper saying that they won can be printed on the spot. It's just that Simple! With today's computer scoring, there is no legitimate reason to not do it. 

 

Snakebite

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Just to clarify things, (it was late when I was writing so I am not surprised things got fuzzy) the list I am recommending as the Base Category list be the following, a total of 20 when we include the Ladies Categories.

  • Juniors
  • Cowboy - "Traditional" Two Handed
  • Duelist
  • Gunfighter
  • FC - "Traditional" Two Handed
  • FC Duelist
  • FC Gunfighter
  • Frontiersman
  • B-Western
  • Classic Cowboy

That's it, everything, and everyone, is covered in just 20 Base Categories, a reduction of 16 categories from what we have now.  Everything else is just an age break of one of the above, and could easily be added back in "IF THERE ARE ENOUGH COMPETITORS"!

 

And please understand that I have no problem with using the existing list of 36 Categories either, it's the expansion beyond that with further breakdowns that causes the issues moving forward.  Left Handed, Elder Statesman, Duelist, with Knee & Hip Replacements, just shouldn't be a category!  :P

 

Well, it's off to work, I will try and check back around lunch time to see what kind of a hornets nest I stirred up!

 

Best to all,

 

Dogmeat Dad

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Since it all seems to be up for grabs - can we add a “Western Streaker” category?  

 

Respectfully Submitted by my contemplated alter ego - Buck Nekkid

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