Ubertis and BP cartridges = not a harmonious outcome

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

Brother was shooting BP (APP) 200 gr .45 Colt cartridges in his 2 Ruger Vaqueros = life is good

 

Switches over to his Ubertis, one open top conversion cylinder (don't know the name but it was blue )  and 2 with top straps--like 1873  (also blue)

 

once Uberti loaded cylinders will rotate but once 1 or 2 shoots cylinders lock up and can't be turned with left hand helping.  This is ALL 3 OF THEM.  Do fine with smokeless

 

Some of the cases show rub marks on face where they dragged again rear of cylinder opening.

 

The is zero end-play on any of the cylinders--all very tight

 

We've come up with two courses of trial and error;

1. do ladder loading of cartridges and see if we can find the 'sweet spot' for powder loads (his idea)

2. mine is we need a bit of end play (slop if done wrong) on cylinders as they are fouling with powder residue

 

all ideas appreciated

cr

 

[Innocent Bystander SASS #24171]

You need to open up the gap between the cylinders and the barrels. BP needs more gap between to allow for fouling. I believe that it's recommended to have .005 or so as the gap for reliable bp shooting. 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

+1 with the opentop this can be accomplished by adjusting the wedge! with he 73 I used a buffing pad like the wife uses on her nails and buff just a little at a time.

Rafe

[Silver Sam, SASS #34718L]

Yep, I.B. is absolutely correct.

The OpenTop can be adjusted with the wedge.

On the '73's Measure the gap between the back of the barrel & the cylinder when the hammer is at 1/2 cock and the cyl will spin.

You'll most likely find you have about .003 clearance give or take.

The last Ubertis I had measured .0015......

You need to take a little off the back of the barrel until you have about .005 

Then you should be Good to Go !

 

Just go slowly, its easy to take metal off, not so easy to put it back.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Actually, you should NOT be able to adjust the cylinder gap on an open top by moving the wedge.  The reason you can do this on a Uberti is because 99.9% of them have an improper arbor to barrel fit.  Once the arbor is fixed the cylinder gap will remain constant.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Actually, you should NOT be able to adjust the cylinder gap on an open top by moving the wedge.  The reason you can do this on a Uberti is because 99.9% of them have an improper arbor to barrel fit.  Once the arbor is fixed the cylinder gap will remain constant.

Exactly what Larsen said. Also make sure you are using a bullet with enough lube like a big lube bullet. Jim Martin recommends a cylinder gap of .007-.010 for bp 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

You don't need to use a big lube bullet with app it creates its own.

Rafe

[John Henry Quick]

I'm not sure I understand the comparison with Vaqueros, but since we're talking apples and oranges, my Uberti Smokewagons spin just fine by the end of a match and I user real black powder.  A little bore butter on the base pin does wonders.

 

 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Howdy, being Uberti ain't gotta thing to do with it, probably just needs the cylinder gap adjusted. A little fine tuning on all our firearms makes them alot more fun to shoot. Good Luck

 

JefroRelax-Enjoy

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

Brother was shooting BP (APP) 

cr

 

APP is not BP. It's a substitute. 

Use Bore-Butter for gun lube.

OLG

[Nevada Jim]

33 minutes ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

Howdy, being Uberti ain't gotta thing to do with it, probably just needs the cylinder gap adjusted. A little fine tuning on all our firearms makes them alot more fun to shoot. Good Luck

 

JefroRelax-Enjoy

 

+1

 

Had the same problem. 

Played with at least a dozen loads looking for a sweet spot.

Then a pard suggested I have my cylinder gap opened to at least .005"

My gunsmith suggested they be opened to .008 and all problems went away.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

1 hour ago, JohnHenryQuick said:

I'm not sure I understand the comparison with Vaqueros, but since we're talking apples and oranges, my Uberti Smokewagons spin just fine by the end of a match and I user real black powder.  A little bore butter on the base pin does wonders.

 

 

what I meant was the cylinder spins fine when they are loaded up (like some do at the loading table when looking for a high primer) BUT

once they are shot one or two times the cylinder locks up and even using your left hand (he's right handed) to help turn the cylinder is no help.  He has to pull the cylinder pin each time to get the cylinder out and rounds out of the cylinder.  

 

next stage is repeat of above (after 3 stages he was shooting smokless and no problems)

 

 

 

[Too Tall Bob]

As said in previous responses he needs to open up the cylinder/barrel gap. Also if he cleans the face of his cylinder when it starts to drag he will get rid a lot of his issues. I use a 4 to 1 spray of water and ballistol for that. It cleans up the cylinder face and can use it on the carrier of his rifle as well. I shoot Ubertis exclusively and shoot about 95 % APP rounds.  

[Joe West]

  Most revolvers have a wide variation of fit as allowed by their mfg. All manufacturers have a range that your single action revolver may fall in to that just won't work well with bp and cast bullets. Often two revolvers with consecutive serial numbers will spec out differently regardless of brand. Nonte's book "pistolsmithing" is always a good starting point if you're going to set up a revolver. Use of a correctly guided end cutter and accurate measurements will give you better results just about every time. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

I had a pair of Smoke Wagons in .44-40 and I had the cylinder gap made to .006-.008 I believe. Never had a problem with those pistols for 7 years of strictly BP shooting!

[Major Crimes]

Even Uberti Cap and Ball guns can be a bit to tight on the cylinder gap.

I have a Uberti 1861 Navy and it jammed up from the first shot.

I replaced the nipples with Slix and it still jammed from the first shot.

A freindly local BP shooter took it home and trimmed a bit from the barrell (the cylinder end) and it now works like a dream.

 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I must be one lucky guy. I have 6 sets of Uberti cartridge pistols, in either 45 Colt or 44-40, some Opentops, some SAA's, and 4 Pietta '51's. I have shot matches with all of them, and never had to change anything except lighten/replace the main springs and clean up some burrs, and install Treso nipples. I do use bullets with lots of lube or put grease over the balls. I still think you guys need to lube your base pins better. Everybody assumes it it the cylinder hitting the barrel, but I am not so sure. But then I use real BP. All these self-lubing powders, maybe don't. At least not enough.  If you shove your cylinder forward and it has 3-4 thou of clearance, that should be enough. To just arbitrarily say you need to file the barrel until you have 5-8 thou of clearance without mentioning cylinder and play is just poor/uninformed gunsmithing. People get away with it because if you just keep cutting away you will reach the point where the cylinder cannot touch the barrel, but it is a ham-fisted way of solving the problem, and also allows MORE fouling to escape and dirty up your gun. IMHO

[Jackalope]

6 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I must be one lucky guy. I have 6 sets of Uberti cartridge pistols, in either 45 Colt or 44-40, some Opentops, some SAA's, and 4 Pietta '51's. I have shot matches with all of them, and never had to change anything except lighten/replace the main springs and clean up some burrs, and install Treso nipples. I do use bullets with lots of lube or put grease over the balls. I still think you guys need to lube your base pins better. Everybody assumes it it the cylinder hitting the barrel, but I am not so sure. But then I use real BP. All these self-lubing powders, maybe don't. At least not enough.  If you shove your cylinder forward and it has 3-4 thou of clearance, that should be enough. To just arbitrarily say you need to file the barrel until you have 5-8 thou of clearance without mentioning cylinder and play is just poor/uninformed gunsmithing. People get away with it because if you just keep cutting away you will reach the point where the cylinder cannot touch the barrel, but it is a ham-fisted way of solving the problem, and also allows MORE fouling to escape and dirty up your gun. IMHO

 

Well said.  Increasing cylinder end play is not the long-term solution.  Increasing barrel/cylinder gap is not always the best option, either.  Keeping things well lubricated with Crisco/beeswax, Bore Butter, or similar will cure a lot of problems without resorting to excessive slop between the cylinder and the frame or barrel.  Who knows, you might want to sell that gun someday or use it with smokeless powder.

 

By the way, I tried APP once.  Only once.  Nothing but real black powder since.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

On 7/23/2017 at 3:48 PM, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

You don't need to use a big lube bullet with app it creates its own.

Rafe

Correct, and what fouling? I get none with APP. I use APP with Hi-Tec coated bullets, no lube. 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Just now, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Correct, and what fouling? I get none with APP. I use APP with Hi-Tec coated bullets, no lube. 

I use full load app and a moly coated bullet, can go 6 stages with little fouling, have left uncleaned for 2-3 weeks with no issues but I live in the desert with little humidity. 

Rafe

[Thunder Creek Kid]

My non harmonious moment with the Ubertis came this past weekend. After shooting them for about a year with real black, went to the loading table

and the bolt spring on one of them just snapped in two.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

4 minutes ago, Thunder Creek Kid said:

My non harmonious moment with the Ubertis came this past weekend. After shooting them for about a year with real black, went to the loading table

and the bolt spring on one of them just snapped in two.

Hi TCK,

Did you replace with wire spring? 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

1.If set up correctly the wedge should push out with your thumb .

And have NO bearing on cylinder gap.

2. APP makes its own lube .

And needs nothing but I recommend synthetic grease on the arbor .

Just saying .

Rooster 

[Thunder Creek Kid]

38 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Hi TCK,

Did you replace with wire spring? 

Ordered today from Brownells.

[J-BAR #18287]

IMO, those who recommend some lube on the arbor/base pin and cylinder face are giving good advice.  APP's self generated lube may be adequate to keep the crud inside the barrel soft, but it's not going to hurt a darn thing to put some BP compatible lube in other places.  Barrel-cylinder gap may be part of the issue, but before removing metal, I would try it again with more lube.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

If APP creates no fouling, then what is stopping Cheyenne's guns from operating? And if there truly is no fouling,then how would opening up the cylinder gap help?

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

7 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

If APP creates no fouling, then what is stopping Cheyenne's guns from operating? And if there truly is no fouling,then how would opening up the cylinder gap help?

I'm thinking the bullet lube is gumming it up.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Back up the bus!

 

We got a whole lot of variables here.

 

First off, APP is not Black Powder, it is a Black Powder substitute. As J-Bar so eloquently said, just because it is supposed to generate its own lube, that might not be good enough.

 

Now the OP was talking about 3 different guns, Vaqueros, some sort of Open Top Uberti, and some sort of Uberti with a Top Strap.

 

They ain't all the same and their ability to function with Black Powder or a BP substitute may not be the same.

 

Before anybody reaches for the file and attacks the Barrel/Cylinder gap, let's take a look at possible causes to the problem.

 

The first line of defense from binding with Black Powder on any revolver is the cylinder bushing. The bushing is what protects the cylinder pin from fouling blasted out of the B/C gap onto the cylinder pin. That is the major cause of binding, fouling on the pin, not fouling on the face of the cylinder. Opening up the B/C gap will have no effect on how much fouling gets blasted onto the pin, in fact it may make things worse, allowing more fouling to be blasted out.

 

Here is a photo of three cylinders. All have a bushing on the front of the cylinder. Left to right they are an Uberti Cattleman, Ruger 'original model'. Vaquero, and 2nd Gen Colt. The bushings on the Cattleman and Colt cylinders are removable and the bushing on the Vaquero is milled onto the surface, but that makes no difference. The bushing standing proud of the cylinder is what does the job. All these guns shoot just fine with Black Powder (the real stuff) with their original B/C gaps of from .005 - .008. PROVIDING THE BULLETS USED CARRY ENOUGH BLACK POWDER COMPATIBLE LUBE.

 

 

 

 

 

Notice the lack of a bushing on the front of the cylinder of this 1860 Army and 1858 Remington. There is nothing to protect the arbor or cylinder pin on these revolvers from fouling blasted out or the B/C gap. Now notice the helical groove cut into the arbor of the 1860, and notice that it is a larger diameter than the Remington cylinder pin. That is the secret to the Colt open top style revolvers running a long time without binding up with Black Power. The helical groove results in clearance, that gives any fouling that makes its way onto the arbor a place to collect, without causing binding. Plus the larger diameter of the Colt style arbor spreads the fouling out over a larger circumference. I can shoot an 1860 Colt all afternoon without it binding, the 1858 Remington design tends to bind up after one cylinder full.

 

 

 

 

So....

 

My conclusion, after many years of shooting real Black Powder in a large variety of types of revolvers is....

 

1. Cylinders that have a bushing will always shoot longer and better with Black Powder than cylinders without a bushing.

 

2. Bullets must have ENOUGH of a suitable Black Powder compatible bullet lube to prevent fouling.

The Big Lube bullets cast by our friend Springfield Slim are terrific for carrying enough BP compatible lube. That's a couple of BIg Lube bullets in the photo of the 1860 and 1858. Notice how much lube they can carry.

 

3. Cylinders without a bushing will profit from a liberal application of BP compatible lube on the cylinder arbor, to keep the fouling from drying out and causing binding.

 

Notice, none of these conclusions have anything at all to do with how wide the B/C gap is.

 

Regarding Black Powder substitutes, I have almost zero experience with them. I loaded up some 38 S&W with APP a bunch or years ago to shoot in an old S&W Top Break pocket pistol. Everything went fine, but of course the cylinder had a good sized bushing on the front. My advice is the same as J-Bar's. With an Open Top type design, coat the cylinder arbor with lots of BP compatible lube to keep the fouling that will inevitably be blasted onto the arbor from drying out and causing binding.

 

Top Strap guns; Colts, Ubertis, Rugers, etc, use plenty of BP compatible lube on the bullets and the cylinder pin.

 

Uberti reproduction S&W Top Breaks, forget it. Uberti shortened the cylinder bushings in order to lengthen the cylinders for cartridges such as 45 Colt and 44-40, without lengthening the Top Strap a comparable amount. They do not run well with Black Powder.