"Old school" CAS/SASS shooting

[Dubious Don #56333]

Variety is the spice of life...LOL.

Same old - same old gets well....old.

There ain't NO target too big nor too close to MISS! (learnt that at Bordertown, among other places)

Big N close. Run N gun. Stand N deliver. DUMP'EM !!! All good stages. Six, eight, ten or twelve in a row? B-O-R-I-N-G.......

 

In a land not so far away, in a time not so long ago there was this big match. Well run, organized, super stages with a good mix of stages. Not too hard, not too soft but juuust right. Sold out mostly. Then there was this other match. Big type, one each. Shoulda sold out too but didn't. Not by a long shot. Maybe not so well organized, maybe missing some amenities here and there but largely, the stages well...they was different than the other match and maybe that was it. That was then, this is the now. Stages are a little different. =More shooters. Hmmm...

 

Ain't a thing wrong with small challenging targets far away. For me. For some other people, young'uns, oldsters and such, maybe that ain't so much fun. That + no fun = LESS SHOOTERS. They will go elsewhere and spend their hard earned dollars someplace they have FUN. If that's Club Small & Far, more power to ya!!!

If that gives ya the impression I'm not a fan of tiny/far, you'd be right. By and large, the majority of shooters don't like it. (remember, too much of a thing isn't all that good either) Remember too its not just the targets. There's other reasons people come (or don't) I know of a local club that has a great range, really good stages but doesn't seem to draw like they used to. Not sure what's up with that but I'm part of the problem. See, there's this little thing called LIFE that keeps gittin' in the way of me shooting. I'm pretty selective. I only gots so much time and ammo and danged if I'm gonna waste a day shooting at a club that don't make it FUN.

 

On the other hand, there's places/people that LIKE it teeny/far. More power to ya!!! If you gots a club that likes that and draws a crowd, cool. If the "Crowd" ain't near as big as it used to be but 'that t'other club over yonder' seems to draw more, that'd be a CLUE. (remember it could be more than one thing and SOMETIMES....it ain't any one thing, it just is)

 

Yes there's "two different SASS'es" and we all git along just fine!!!

[Lost Trail]

So how did the number of shooters at the small target longer distance target match have compared to several Az monthly matches we attend with 50 to 125 shooters or more typical all winter long in Az??

There were only 11 shooters on Sunday. Still took about the same time as a 40 shooter match in AZ I attended. A good stage time on Sunday was 36 seconds with a couple of the older shooters breaking 110 seconds.

 

At 53 years old, there were only 4 of us under age 60 with most well north of that.

 

Since this was my first match in Colorado, I can't speak to how it compares with attendance at other Colorado matches.

 

I can say that there were zero targets of 16" unless you measured a few corner-to-corner. They were also varied in shape: Hearts, spades, clubs, diamonds, circles, Marshal, coyote, chicken, hog, bison. No single line of targets had a repeated shape.

 

For anyone that has shot at Cowtown, distances were roughly: Pistol & shotgun targets would be past the ditch maybe 3-4 yards up the hill. Rifle targets were roughly double that distance. Pistol targets were maybe 12" at the widest with rifle targets being smaller.

 

It was fun and challenging. Personally, I like aspects of both types. I don't like just getting into a 'rut' of repeating the same type of shooting over and over. Nice to have the variety and be able to deal with any situation.

[Blastmaster]

If the targets are so far away that spotters have difficulty discriminating hits and misses, that's too far. And it happens.

 

 

 

Of course if the spotters can't tell hits from misses, the shooter should get the benefit of the doubt and be scored for all hits. But that doesn't always happen either.

LOL,,,

 

I've seen spotters on more than one ocasion, have difficulty discriminating hits and misses with targets set at 15ft and are 18" x 18". So lets move them in even closer.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

Remember when some targets required the use of sights? Remember when they might be partially hidden by sagebrush? Remember when vertical staging wasn't so unfair and was possible? Remember when your vertical guns allowed heading down range to engage the rifle targets with your revolvers? These things do not make a bad match!

 

The big and close matches that folks on the wire are so vocal about are fun as its kinda cool to drain your guns in under 20 seconds. To facilitate this draining targets are set right next to each other where they would be impossible to miss if more folks had buntline revolvers and 30" barrel 73's. It is fun to have all of that rifle brass in the air as ya set your gun down. This doesn't mean the match is bad...

 

I remember when SASS badges were selling like hot cakes and folks were wanting to try this "cowboy" game because it wasn't like the other games. Since that time a few popular shoots have established the norm and some of the things that made CAS different have went away a little.

 

I was reminded once on the wire that CAS/SASS is not about marksmanship. Since that time my gang has focused on some games where marksmenship is required and we started setting up a few old school stages at our monthly matches to go along side of the big and close stuff. The reason for this is to have folks learn to shoot and yet have the skill set to play drain your guns when you head to a annual match somewhere.

 

The stage times are not really that much longer or cumbersome than the 4 yard revolver stages either as someone who shoots in the mid 30's will have a 40 second stage an so on. We had a shooter come who didn't get the rifle up to her cheek and so shot over the longer rifle targets and had misses that didn't normally happen on closer targets. There are many ways to have f

[Lost Trail]

Also, on Sunday the targets were NOT all the same height. The stands varied in height from one to the next. High, low, high, low, etc.

 

It definitely added to the challenge.

[Buckshot Frank]

I often experiment with longer range targets. People are generally OK with it if it is on one stage of a six stage match. If you did it on all six stages, I don't think that people would appreciate it much. When I do it, I'll usually set some pistol targets obscenely close on another stage to make up for it. Variety is a good thing.

 

Same deal on balancing out a marathon stage with a stand and deliver stage. A six shotgun stage with a two shotgun stage.

 

There are par 3, 4, and 5 holes in golf for a reason. Nobody wants to play 18 par-4 holes...

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Old school went over the cliff when match organizers realized that money could be made. More classes, big and close targets with minimal movement draws the paying customers.

 

The days of SASS being a fantasy sport, played by Cowpokes reliving their youth with real firearms and for bragging rights is long gone.

 

Yea, I remember the last old school match I went to. The club had dwindled from two posses to just six shooters that day .....and the average total misses were 14. Lota fun

However, today you can have it both ways........we offer the Sharpshooter category (no class ). The Sharpshooter either starts at more distant point with the rifle, then moves to shotgun or pistol position. They shoot our standard rifle targets with their pistols. Or depending on the stage we will set an extra bank of more distant rifle targets and then use our rifle targets for their pistols. Still plenty of movement and now everyone is happy Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Buckshot Frank and Jefro, those are both really great responses. I often don't understand this big and close versus small and far debate. Why can't we have it all? Is there only one way to do things? Fortunately for me, I have 5 ranges I can easily shoot at, with one range home to 4-5 clubs. One club that I mentioned earlier is nonsass and you get to use rifle calibers if you want is pretty much only small and far. Another club is really close and big with almost no movement and pretty much just 10-10-4. All of the others are somewhere in the middle with a mixture of everything. I think that is the magic formula, no?

[Bad Hand]

I have shot on 5 ranges in Colorado, including the one the OP mentioned. all on the front range. They are all just different enough to be "interesting" especially the Colorado Cowboys who shoot at Lake George, elevation 8,000 feet above sea level. I like the mix of targets, distances, and even some movement. But, I could do without the "Texas Star". BTW I found the shooters at all the clubs to be friendly and helpful.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

If you { as do I } enjoy the mish-mash of large, small ... near, far targets for a match...

 

make sure to put Billy The Kid Breakout on your list for next August, in Ruidoso, NM

 

It is a match that is fun, doable and challenging....plus, awesome folks!!!

[Snake Marquez]

I miss the good old days of my club. And it had nothing to do with ranges, rather is was 4 stages, a pot luck lunch and then team and side matches. And yes it was a mix of targets close and far.

 

Now it is shoot and scoot, 5 bays, no food breaks at all (eat standing up or grab a snack) then everyone loads up the Motor home (which was not used back then since it was just a Sunday shoot) and off they go.

 

Frankly I'm bushed after that now. 5 hours straight of just shooting and posse work without any break. Still fun but very different and I see it getting harder as folks age.

 

And our numbers Didn't go way up with the new SASS. 20 Plus years later, the numbers are the same.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Several year ago we went even bigger and closer. This was after a few years of losing shooters. Did not help. Still kept losing shooters at the same rate. Other factors are the cause. A few more years like the last few and I do not know if we will survive. I am sure hoping the economy finally picks back up one of these years...

[Tully Mars]

There is a non sass match like that by me, except that you get to use rifle calibers for the rifle targets if you want and can stoke your 87/97's. Also, you get 10 seconds per miss instead of 5. It's not as popular as the big and close matches, but it does have its loyal following. It's my personal favorite shoot of all the clubs I shoot at, even though it's hell on black powder gunfighters. But it does give me a reason and place to shoot the old 45-70.

Chabot! My favorite as well! Long live the Gouge Eye!

 

Tully

[Gunsmoke Cowboy]

If you { as do I } enjoy the mish-mash of large, small ... near, far targets for a match...

 

make sure to put Billy The Kid Breakout on your list for next August, in Ruidoso, NM

 

It is a match that is fun, doable and challenging....plus, awesome folks!!!

If you { as do I } enjoy the mish-mash of large, small ... near, far targets for a match... make sure to put Billy The Kid Breakout on your list for next August, in Ruidoso, NM It is a match that is fun, doable and challenging....plus, awesome folks!!!

[Bart Solo]

I have tended to gravitate to clubs that shoot closer and faster, but I am not sure there aren't matches that set the targets too close. At some point we need to recognize that CAS is a shooting sport and not just a trigger pulling sport.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I have tended to gravitate to clubs that shoot closer and faster, but I am not sure there aren't matches that set the targets too close. At some point we need to recognize that CAS is a shooting sport and not just a trigger pulling sport.

spoken like a man that has not had a miss lately.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

We have 3 clubs in our area. One uses smaller targets and set back aways. They take pride in no one having a clean match.

 

The other two clubs follow big and close and SASS rules but....We also have Josey Wales matches that are set up so a shooter can shoot the JW along with regular shooters shooting normal SASS stages. Takes a bit of thinking to write the stages but everyone walks away smiling.

 

One clubs annual is normal SASS stages and rules.

 

The other clubs annual offers Tom Horn single shot and lever action so a shooter can shoot big caliber rifles. And the regular shooters shoot normal SASS stages. And again everyone walks away with smiles.

 

Variety as a choice rather than everyone having to shoot non traditional stages seems to be the key to happiness all around.

Ike

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Well I tell you there pilgrim and that is if you build them up close and personal the shooters will come and have a fantastic time in doing so cause they want to hear the bang and clang and head on home with a big and fantastic smile on their faces and thinking of nothing more then returning back for

another fun filled shooting event.

 

 

That's the name of the game pilgrim meeting new and old folks and having a fun filled shoot.

 

JRJ

[Griff]

"Old School Cowboy Shootin'"

Somewhere around 1992-4

[Colorado big Al]

Was trying to see how popular this small target long range match is. So apples to apples how does attendannce compare to other clubs in the area in Colorado.

Apples to apples, most other clubs have much better attendance, 50 - 75 shooters on a good weekend. In speaking with many other shooters as to why, their responses range from quality to friendly atmosphere to being welcome. Most shooters including myself vote with our wallets when it comes to choosing " the best bang for our buck" (pardon the pun).

 

Speaking for myself, I refuse to go to a match that is set up to promote misses and procedurals. Also, I don't like being harassed about how I wear my guns and what caliber I shoot.

 

Shooting a match where the range and the stages are set up for lots misses is not fun. Ammo and travel cost too much, to not have fun!!

 

Respectfully,

CBA 3195

[Mustang Gregg]

 

^{We like the "old School" CAS up to a point.}

^{A little fun with bottles, beans, campfires, gallows, etc.}

^{And the story is fun too.}

 

^{Where it gets dicey for us is when you have a hard time getting firing order and shooting position out of the "storyline".}

^{Let's tell a little story first, then...TELL THE SHOOTER WHERE TO BE AND HOW TO SHOOT IT!}

 

^Mustang

[Cowboy Junky]

There were only 11 shooters on Sunday. Still took about the same time as a 40 shooter match in AZ I attended. A good stage time on Sunday was 36 seconds with a couple of the older shooters breaking 110 seconds.

 

At 53 years old, there were only 4 of us under age 60 with most well north of that.

 

Since this was my first match in Colorado, I can't speak to how it compares with attendance at other Colorado matches.

 

I can say that there were zero targets of 16" unless you measured a few corner-to-corner. They were also varied in shape: Hearts, spades, clubs, diamonds, circles, Marshal, coyote, chicken, hog, bison. No single line of targets had a repeated shape.

 

For anyone that has shot at Cowtown, distances were roughly: Pistol & shotgun targets would be past the ditch maybe 3-4 yards up the hill. Rifle targets were roughly double that distance. Pistol targets were maybe 12" at the widest with rifle targets being smaller.

 

It was fun and challenging. Personally, I like aspects of both types. I don't like just getting into a 'rut' of repeating the same type of shooting over and over. Nice to have the variety and be able to deal with any situation.

 

That's sounds about right for that type of match.

[Lost Trail]

Misses were common for most of us at that match.

 

However, I was not comfortable with some of the lackadaisical way that some issues were dealt (or not dealt) with.

 

I.e. There was one lady shooter, wife of one of the upper level members. She admitted that it had been about 2 years since she had been shooting so she was going slow, asking lots of questions, missing her shot count and being reminded of needing to shoot the last round. Fine, I really don't have any issues with those sorts of things.

 

What I do take issue with is repeatedly breaking the 170 and nothing being said. Plus at the end of one stage, SG was the final tool, she shoots a SxS, as she turns to go back and retrieve her rifle, she turns the wrong way and sweeps everyone behind her since she has the SG horizontal. Fine if she keeps in pointed down range, but she turned the wrong way a swept everyone, except me since I was tending to stay at the opposite end due to her control issues. Granted, the SG was open & empty, but I asked if that shouldn't be at least a SDQ. Was met with a shrug.

 

There were other issues that I believe should have been Procedurals like shooting out of order and while people mentioned this, nothing was recorded.

 

While I enjoyed shooting and everyone was very nice and welcoming, I'm not sure I want to go back.

[Yusta B.]

I lived in the Front Range for 4 years & shot at that club twice. Enough to find it wasn't an enjoyable shoot for ME. They have few new shooters there but all seem to enjoy their target range and size. More power to them, it's just not for the masses.

There is a good club at Byers and try the Colorado Cowboys at Lake George, both enjoyable clubs close to you.

[Lost Trail]

I lived in the Front Range for 4 years & shot at that club twice. Enough to find it wasn't an enjoyable shoot for ME. They have few new shooters there but all seem to enjoy their target range and size. More power to them, it's just not for the masses.

There is a good club at Byers and try the Colorado Cowboys at Lake George, both enjoyable clubs close to you.

I'm going to try the club at Byers at the end of September. Have not been able to time it right for Colorado Cowboys, but have a couple of friends that belong to that club. Ad to all this the issue of selling our house and moving....

 

Sheesh.

[Yusta B.]

If they are at Byers, look up Blazin Vaquero & Sonora Blaze, fine people & tell them I said howdy !

 

Where ya moving to ?

[Stump Water]

A truly "old school" match ain't just about target size and distance. It's also about stages for 1, 2, or 3 guns... shotgun stages w/up to 6 or 8 KDs, all by their lonesome... maybe 5 pistol shots along with 'em... or not!

 

Eight, nine or 10 rifle rounds with 5 pistol... I doubt anyone here has shot one.

 

How 'bout pistol, rifle, pistol, shotgun, pistol? Or rifle, rifle, pistol, pistol, shotgun.

 

You know how it is with this bunch. Folks always trippin' over themselves to loan you a gun or ammo.

 

It was fun stuff.

[Lost Trail]

It looks like Illinois

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

J Bar

 

in your case NO one can see the targets , unless there be gail force winds

 

kof , kof , is there a range behind all that smoke ?

 

Chickasaw

[Griff]

 

How 'bout pistol, rifle, pistol, shotgun, pistol? Or rifle, rifle, pistol, pistol, shotgun.

 

It was fun stuff.

Only place I saw that kinda stuff was @ a lil' club based in Houston, and they included rifle-caliber rifle, bow & arrows, tomahawks, knives and such. All in a main match stage. No! It was NOT fun. Especially as all this was at their supposed "SASS Rules apply" annual, with stated intent that no visitor would win THEIR match.

 

But, hey, this was 23 years ago, ancient history.

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

At the Winter Range long range events, the pistol targets are 60ish yards and the pistol calibre rifle are at 100ish yards. Plenty of pards move through that event. No problems with hearing the hits.

 

 

 

Somehow a rifle target at fer gosh sakes 20-25 yards should not be that hard to work with.

 

I would like to see it at a match that the distances are mixed up some.You know, just to be different. Like 3 targets at 12 yards and one at 25 yards. You could come up with some fun stages. Ease some of the 10-10-4 boredom.

 

Not too many of our celluloid heroes had a rifle fight at barroom distances. Shotguns and pistols yep.

 

 

 

 

 

Putting on my asbestos union suit now.

[Snakebite]

I've often talked about the "Old Days", and how much fun the matches were. I was slow to accept the "New Game" with the targets very large and close, and the ammo very downloaded. Yes, Slow, but I did come around...... some what.

I have videos of some of our Old matches, and shot EOT in the "Old Days". Yes, the targets were generally farther out.... not as far as some seem to remember, but indeed farther out. Although the targets are considerably closer now, IMO that is NOT the biggest change in the game. NOPE, not at all. The biggest change is the way the game is played. We use to do all kinds of things.... and we did them on the clock!! Fetching the keys off a hook to unlock the Jail, Pouring a drink of whiskey into a glass WITHOUT SPILLING A DROP, a full rifle reload, or a full handgun reload, contending with sheets blowing back and forth blocking the targets in the Chinese Laundry stage, Yata, Yata, Yata.... YES... we played the "Game". Sure, everyone wanted to do their best, but now days the game is DULL compared to what it use to be... this came about because of all the bitching about throwing the Tomahawk on the clock or what ever should not have any effect on a shooter's score. Lighting a coal oil lamp on the clock to shoot inside a dark room had nothing to do with how well somebody shot... and they should not be timed on how long it take for them to do what ever it was that was in the scenario. Bla, bla, bla... the bottom line is that we no longer play the game to it's fullest. But......... we do indeed now put more emphasis on shooting..... NOT MARKSMANSHIP, but seeing who can operate the gun the fastest. Come to our annual Fort Miller match... I try to inject at least some of the "Old Game" into our annual match.... If you don't want to shoot from Ore Cart while going down into the Canyon... then don't show up. If you expect to stand in one place and shoot the whole match, or only have to move a couple of steps, then don't show up. But, if you want just a taste of the "Old Days", come join us. O-yeah... you won't have to move to shoot the Buffalo, because it will be CHARGING AT YOU!

 

Snakebite

[Deadeye George]

Old school went over the cliff when match organizers realized that money could be made. More classes, big and close targets with minimal movement draws the paying customers.

 

The days of SASS being a fantasy sport, played by Cowpokes reliving their youth with real firearms and for bragging rights is long gone.

And that's a shame, everything these days is about money, money, money!

 

Bought a gun for $1300 and not fast enough... have someone slick it up for another $300 or $400! Still not fast enough.... take some lessons, there are plenty out there holding classes and seminars on speed shooting. Still not fast enough... hire a shooting coach! All of this so you can shoot steel targets the "cowboy way" .......... or has the "cowboy way" faded along with the spirit of the game as well?

 

The more I'm around SASS, the more I realize it's loosing it's old west flavor and will soon just be another speed shooting event like so many other clubs with the only difference being the weapons being used and the odd participant wearing a cowboy hat!

 

Sadly, nothing can stop the downward spiral as too many folks making money from slicking up guns or selling speed gadgets and brainwashing everyone into thinking it's more FUN to shoot at a 4'x8' target 5' in front of you instead of actually knowing what the sights on a pistol are there for!

 

Probably the only reason the targets aren't 4'x8' sheets yet is that they would be too heavy to carry and set up!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I've often talked about the "Old Days", and how much fun the matches were. I was slow to accept the "New Game" with the targets very large and close, and the ammo very downloaded. Yes, Slow, but I did come around...... some what.

I have videos of some of our Old matches, and shot EOT in the "Old Days". Yes, the targets were generally farther out.... not as far as some seem to remember, but indeed farther out. Although the targets are considerably closer now, IMO that is NOT the biggest change in the game. NOPE, not at all. The biggest change is the way the game is played. We use to do all kinds of things.... and we did them on the clock!! Fetching the keys off a hook to unlock the Jail, Pouring a drink of whiskey into a glass WITHOUT SPILLING A DROP, a full rifle reload, or a full handgun reload, contending with sheets blowing back and forth blocking the targets in the Chinese Laundry stage, Yata, Yata, Yata.... YES... we played the "Game". Sure, everyone wanted to do their best, but now days the game is DULL compared to what it use to be... this came about because of all the bitching about throwing the Tomahawk on the clock or what ever should not have any effect on a shooter's score. Lighting a coal oil lamp on the clock to shoot inside a dark room had nothing to do with how well somebody shot... and they should not be timed on how long it take for them to do what ever it was that was in the scenario. Bla, bla, bla... the bottom line is that we no longer play the game to it's fullest. But......... we do indeed now put more emphasis on shooting..... NOT MARKSMANSHIP, but seeing who can operate the gun the fastest. Come to our annual Fort Miller match... I try to inject at least some of the "Old Game" into our annual match.... If you don't want to shoot from Ore Cart while going down into the Canyon... then don't show up. If you expect to stand in one place and shoot the whole match, or only have to move a couple of steps, then don't show up. But, if you want just a taste of the "Old Days", come join us. O-yeah... you won't have to move to shoot the Buffalo, because it will be CHARGING AT YOU!

 

Snakebite

That sounds like fun. I might have to take a trip down to Fresno one of these days and try out your shoot. I'd love to see that charging buffalo.

[VICIOUS, SASS#8014]

HOWDY; I was 5th at the match but first in the side match. I could hit the five blocks of wood with five shots instead of needing the 15 pistol round allowed. Fast is fine but accuracy is final.