"Old school" CAS/SASS shooting

[Lost Trail]

I'm relatively new to CAS/SASS so please take this all in the spirit it is intended: happily seeking thoughts.

 

Yesterday I went and shot with a 'local' group south of Colorado Springs near Hanover. They shoot 'old school' CAS/SASS which was a bit different than the 3 shoots I've attended in AZ.

 

My experience previous to yesterday has been large targets, very closer with the emphasis on speed.

 

Yesterday I arrived early and jumped right in to help setting up the targets and stages. Imagine my surprise when I started seeing the pistol and shotgun targets set at ranges beyond any rifle targets I had previously shot in AZ. Then we start setting the rifle targets and I begin to wonder if my .45 rounds have enough powder to push the 200gr RNFP's out that far or will I have to 'fire for effect'.

 

This is an entire group of people that apparently did not like the turn SASS took back in the 1994 era and have determined to keep the longer distances and not worry so much about the clock.

 

It was very interesting and I did well for the most part. Targets that are half the size or smaller than anything I'd seen yet and at distances of 2-4x what I was used to, combined with a 15-20mph cross wind caused more misses than I hoped. I did have two stages with 1 miss each, but then a 2 miss, 3 miss and 4 miss really hurt. Raw times were up in the top 3 shooters so all-in-all I can't complain.

 

I think it was agood learning experience and my belief is that I want to be able to shoot any variation of CAS since I think it makes me a better all-around competitor and challenges me to better myself. I know I'll never be competing with the likes of Damascus John or Champ, but I do believe that I will continue to improve and this 'long range' CAS shooting can only help.

 

Besides this was only my 4th shoot so I'm just in it for the fun and experience right now.

 

Why the changes to large targets that I can practically spit on instead of the more challenging smaller, furhter targets?

 

Thanks. LT

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Because a lot of shooters are "old" school and actually like hitting the targets.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

The High Desert Cowboys of Acton, CA. does the same and we have a great time

It's all about speed, thesz dayz.

OLG

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'm relatively new to CAS/SASS so please take this all in the spirit it is intended: happily seeking thoughts.

 

Yesterday I went and shot with a 'local' group south of Colorado Springs near Hanover. They shoot 'old school' CAS/SASS which was a bit different than the 3 shoots I've attended in AZ.

 

My experience previous to yesterday has been large targets, very closer with the emphasis on speed.

 

Yesterday I arrived early and jumped right in to help setting up the targets and stages. Imagine my surprise when I started seeing the pistol and shotgun targets set at ranges beyond any rifle targets I had previously shot in AZ. Then we start setting the rifle targets and I begin to wonder if my .45 rounds have enough powder to push the 200gr RNFP's out that far or will I have to 'fire for effect'.

 

This is an entire group of people that apparently did not like the turn SASS took back in the 1994 era and have determined to keep the longer distances and not worry so much about the clock.

 

It was very interesting and I did well for the most part. Targets that are half the size or smaller than anything I'd seen yet and at distances of 2-4x what I was used to, combined with a 15-20mph cross wind caused more misses than I hoped. I did have two stages with 1 miss each, but then a 2 miss, 3 miss and 4 miss really hurt. Raw times were up in the top 3 shooters so all-in-all I can't complain.

 

I think it was agood learning experience and my belief is that I want to be able to shoot any variation of CAS since I think it makes me a better all-around competitor and challenges me to better myself. I know I'll never be competing with the likes of Damascus John or Champ, but I do believe that I will continue to improve and this 'long range' CAS shooting can only help.

 

Besides this was only my 4th shoot so I'm just in it for the fun and experience right now.

 

Why the changes to large targets that I can practically spit on instead of the more challenging smaller, furhter targets?

 

Thanks. LT

Because a VERY small market exists for those matches.

 

CAS is not about making folks a better shooter. That you do on your own time. Introduce an older or complete novice to the game where having a clean stage is beyond the capabilities of 90% of the shooters and they will stay home and beat their heads against a concrete block...as that would give them the same satisfaction without the cost of going to a match.

 

I could go on...but perhaps you've yet to experience a match were the targets are Big, but not Giant...where the distances are Close, but not within touching distance...

 

Phantom

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

There is a non sass match like that by me, except that you get to use rifle calibers for the rifle targets if you want and can stoke your 87/97's. Also, you get 10 seconds per miss instead of 5. It's not as popular as the big and close matches, but it does have its loyal following. It's my personal favorite shoot of all the clubs I shoot at, even though it's hell on black powder gunfighters. But it does give me a reason and place to shoot the old 45-70.

[Tommy Reb]

Hello Lost Trail and Redwood Kid. Wish I was close enough to shoot at the clubs your mention. I like the 10 seconds for a miss. One club I shoot with does have a "Cody Dixon" match where rifle targets are set out at 50 to 100+ yards and shot with rifle cartridge rifles. We use the CAS rifle targets for pistols. Much more fun for me.

 

TR

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Different Strokes fer Different Folks...

 

I Like a mix instead of stand and dump pistols two on each target , repeat on rifle targets then knock-down 4 shotgun targets ...

 

I even like target placement in the form of a W one top left down then up then down then up to right top ...

 

I like shooters choice of starting Firearm which may dictate starting place on line ...or not...

 

I like sitting on a barrel horse to shoot my rifle,,,, or laying on a bed and shooting the bad guys with my pistols...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Reuben McCoy Rankin # 34239]

I like em big and close, and big and far. I like em all.

[Two Dot, 14911]

It's all fun and sometimes it's good to have a challenge.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

My own club tends to set targets out further than the big and close..

We are a small club..

We use 16" targets and when I help set up I always move them in closer..

The match director comes and looks and says "Rance set this stage up!"

 

I'm slowly getting them to understand big and close is more of a popular way of setting up..

I gain maybe a yard on them (the match directors) when I help set up..

Our club is growing little by little..

In the old days.. We might have 25 to 35 shooters.. Enough for 2 posse's..

It kept dwindling down to 8-12 shooters..

With me pushin' the shooting distance (yeah.. They give me hell and laugh at me) we're

Back up to 18-23 shooters.. They think it's them growing the club back..

I think it's the closer targets..

 

Rance

Just my Thinkin..

[Ace_of_Hearts]

The way it use to be......

 

http://www.reloadammo.com/co030897.htm

 

If you look/click on the pictures you will see some specks out there in the desert. Those are the rifle targets.

[Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life]

+1 Phantom.

 

There have been several clubs in my area that have lost members because of nothing but small and far away targets while those with the large (not giant, but SASS recommended size) and relatively close targets (again SASS recommended distances) have grown in membership and number of regular shooters at monthly and annual club matches. I do like a challenge on some stages, just not every stage. I love to hear the bang/clang and see targets fall rather than have lots and lots of misses. Shooting a clean match is still a challenge that I don't achieve very often anymore. This is a game and you are supposed to have FUN. Just my opinion though.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

The way it use to be......

 

http://www.reloadammo.com/co030897.htm

 

If you look/click on the pictures you will see some specks out there in the desert. Those are the rifle targets.

I shot that match, and enjoyed it immensely. I'm having fun at today's game, but it was fun then as well, and SASS was growing exponentially.

 

BTW, the notion that SASS had to change to attract shooters is bogus. The decline in growth rate came after the sea change.

[Sedalia Dave]

Hello Lost Trail and Redwood Kid. Wish I was close enough to shoot at the clubs your mention. I like the 10 seconds for a miss. One club I shoot with does have a "Cody Dixon" match where rifle targets are set out at 50 to 100+ yards and shot with rifle cartridge rifles. We use the CAS rifle targets for pistols. Much more fun for me.

 

TR

I should have those stages written by Wed and should be at the match Saturday. Haven't shot anything for over a month due to way too many hours at work. Looking forward to Saturday.

 

BTW Lethal Larry is feeling better may join us. He won't be shooting Cody Dixon but it will be nice to see him back at the range.

[Sedalia Dave]

I recomend that unless you are the individuals sitting up targets where you shoot and really know the distances from the firing line; that you take a tape measure and actually measure the distance to the targets at the clubs you shoot at.

 

You may find that the targets are a lot closer than you think.

 

SASS recomended distances

 

Revolver – 7 to 10 yards (21 to 30 Feet)

 

Shotgun – 8 to 16 yards (24 to 48 Feet)

 

Rifle – 13 to 50 yards (39 to 150 Feet)

[Bad Hand]

I'm relatively new to CAS/SASS so please take this all in the spirit it is intended: happily seeking thoughts.

 

Yesterday I went and shot with a 'local' group south of Colorado Springs near Hanover. They shoot 'old school' CAS/SASS which was a bit different than the 3 shoots I've attended in AZ.

 

My experience previous to yesterday has been large targets, very closer with the emphasis on speed.

 

Yesterday I arrived early and jumped right in to help setting up the targets and stages. Imagine my surprise when I started seeing the pistol and shotgun targets set at ranges beyond any rifle targets I had previously shot in AZ. Then we start setting the rifle targets and I begin to wonder if my .45 rounds have enough powder to push the 200gr RNFP's out that far or will I have to 'fire for effect'.

 

This is an entire group of people that apparently did not like the turn SASS took back in the 1994 era and have determined to keep the longer distances and not worry so much about the clock.

 

It was very interesting and I did well for the most part. Targets that are half the size or smaller than anything I'd seen yet and at distances of 2-4x what I was used to, combined with a 15-20mph cross wind caused more misses than I hoped. I did have two stages with 1 miss each, but then a 2 miss, 3 miss and 4 miss really hurt. Raw times were up in the top 3 shooters so all-in-all I can't complain.

 

I think it was agood learning experience and my belief is that I want to be able to shoot any variation of CAS since I think it makes me a better all-around competitor and challenges me to better myself. I know I'll never be competing with the likes of Damascus John or Champ, but I do believe that I will continue to improve and this 'long range' CAS shooting can only help.

 

Besides this was only my 4th shoot so I'm just in it for the fun and experience right now.

 

Why the changes to large targets that I can practically spit on instead of the more challenging smaller, furhter targets?

 

Thanks. LT

I have shot with that club, and I enjoyed it! The members are "good guys" and set up the match the way they enjoy it. I enjoy the change from the usual SASS big and close match. YMMV BH

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I recomend that unless you are the individuals sitting up targets where you shoot and really know the distances from the firing line; that you take a tape measure and actually measure the distance to the targets at the clubs you shoot at.

 

You may find that the targets are a lot closer than you think.

 

SASS recomended distances

 

Revolver – 7 to 10 yards (21 to 30 Feet)

 

Shotgun – 8 to 16 yards (24 to 48 Feet)

 

Rifle – 13 to 50 yards (39 to 150 Feet)

Why mention recommended distances? Don't know any truly successful clubs that stick to these distances that are NOT a requirement.

 

Phantom

[Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L]

Never Mind

[J-BAR #18287]

If the targets are so far away that spotters have difficulty discriminating hits and misses, that's too far. And it happens.

 

Of course if the spotters can't tell hits from misses, the shooter should get the benefit of the doubt and be scored for all hits. But that doesn't always happen either.

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

+2 Phantom. I am thankful someone else is designing and setting stuff up. Funny, I shoot at a club where the targets are far and everyone has to haul out the steel and put it away after. I try and pick the light ones cause I am Slim and old.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I'm relatively new to CAS/SASS so please take this all in the spirit it is intended: happily seeking thoughts.

 

Yesterday I went and shot with a 'local' group south of Colorado Springs near Hanover. They shoot 'old school' CAS/SASS which was a bit different than the 3 shoots I've attended in AZ.

 

My experience previous to yesterday has been large targets, very closer with the emphasis on speed.

 

Yesterday I arrived early and jumped right in to help setting up the targets and stages. Imagine my surprise when I started seeing the pistol and shotgun targets set at ranges beyond any rifle targets I had previously shot in AZ. Then we start setting the rifle targets and I begin to wonder if my .45 rounds have enough powder to push the 200gr RNFP's out that far or will I have to 'fire for effect'.

 

This is an entire group of people that apparently did not like the turn SASS took back in the 1994 era and have determined to keep the longer distances and not worry so much about the clock.

 

It was very interesting and I did well for the most part. Targets that are half the size or smaller than anything I'd seen yet and at distances of 2-4x what I was used to, combined with a 15-20mph cross wind caused more misses than I hoped. I did have two stages with 1 miss each, but then a 2 miss, 3 miss and 4 miss really hurt. Raw times were up in the top 3 shooters so all-in-all I can't complain.

 

I think it was agood learning experience and my belief is that I want to be able to shoot any variation of CAS since I think it makes me a better all-around competitor and challenges me to better myself. I know I'll never be competing with the likes of Damascus John or Champ, but I do believe that I will continue to improve and this 'long range' CAS shooting can only help.

 

Besides this was only my 4th shoot so I'm just in it for the fun and experience right now.

 

Why the changes to large targets that I can practically spit on instead of the more challenging smaller, furhter targets?

 

Thanks. LT

So how did the number of shooters at the small target longer distance target match have compared to several Az monthly matches we attend with 50 to 125 shooters or more typical all winter long in Az??

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

My club shoots a monthly speed steel event that has targets as small as 8" and as large as "20"x"30" at distances between five and 40 yards. Shooters range in age from 10 to well North of 70. Typically, it draws four or five times the number of shooters as our CAS shoots.

 

It only requires one gun and is pretty much a come as you are, show up and shoot event. The fastest shooters use rim fire rifles. Those of us in the dinosaur category shoot revolvers. It is great fun. The annual shoot has to cap the number of shooters.

 

No one seriously complains about target size or distance.

 

My take on it's popularity is that it is inexpensive fun with few equipment requirements, simple rules and simple stages. That said, it is not CAS. So, I shoot both because they are both fun in different ways.

[Bad Hand]

So how did the number of shooters at the small target longer distance target match have compared to several Az monthly matches we attend with 50 to 125 shooters or more typical all winter long in Az??

Apples and oranges, matches in Arizona compared to matches in Colorado, as long as the shooters in Colorado enjoy their match, who cares how many shooters show in AZ?

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Apples and oranges, matches in Arizona compared to matches in Colorado, as long as the shooters in Colorado enjoy their match, who cares how many shooters show in AZ?

Was trying to see how popular this small target long range match is. So apples to apples how does attendannce compare to other clubs in the area in Colorado.

[Goliath, SASS #41359]

I like matches where I did not have to write the stages, I did not have to set up the steel, making sure there are no problems with overlapping or almost overlapping targets, where I didn't have to do the scores - Almost without exception, I come to your match - I'll like it. And I hope when you all visit our club, you like our match as well.

 

BB

[Sedalia Dave]

Why mention recommended distances? Don't know any truly successful clubs that stick to these distances that are NOT a requirement.

 

Phantom

Because I think most people will find that the targets setups they are so fond of are set a lot closer than the SASS recommended distances.

[Sedalia Dave]

Was trying to see how popular this small target long range match is. So apples to apples how does attendannce compare to other clubs in the area in Colorado.

Still apples to oranges as the the number of shooters has more to do with the population density, the distance people are willing to drive, What day of the week they shoot, when do people have off and a whole host of variables that simple numbers alone do not account for.

 

Only way your yardstick work is if two clubs right next to each other shoot different target setups on the same day in direct competition with each other. Even those metrics are doubtful.

 

I live in an area where one can shoot a SASS match every weekend of the month including those that have 5 weekends. Most weekends I can choose between two or more clubs. The clubs I choose to shoot at have 1000% more to do with the people and not how close or big the targets are.

[Lunger]

I shot an old school match yesterday and didn't like it. The other folks that claimed they liked it were cofused, missing, procedurals were passed out like candy. 14 shooters started, one got in his pickup, and drove away. Others shot 4 outta the 6 stages. The RO was also the three spotters, and the score keeper. I missed 5 times in 6 stages.....oh, pistol targets ranged from 10 to 20 yards, riflewas 25 to nearly 50, and 2 stages had 3 sg.

[Yul Lose]

There is an "old school" monthly match about 8 miles from where I live and I shoot there 3 or 4 times a year. When I first started about 9 years or so ago I would shoot there every month. They are still using the same targets and the same hand written stage instructions that they were using 9 years ago. I shoot at 5 other clubs throughout the month and I find I like the matches with the bigger, closer targets. The rifle targets on some of the stages at the "old school" match are so far away it's hard to tell if it is a hit or a miss sometimes. As I get older, especially with my back problems I find that it is not safe for me to try and manipulate some of the stage props like climbing down from a buckboard during a stage or climbing up on something to hang a hat on some antlers when I have loaded guns on my belt. I don't find this type of shooting activity enjoyable but some people do.

 

In September they are having an "old school" match up at the RR Bar and I'm looking forward to it.

[Matthew Duncan]

Old school went over the cliff when match organizers realized that money could be made. More classes, big and close targets with minimal movement draws the paying customers.

 

The days of SASS being a fantasy sport, played by Cowpokes reliving their youth with real firearms and for bragging rights is long gone.

[Griff]

A truly "old school" match ain't just about target size and distance. It's also about stages for 1, 2, or 3 guns... shotgun stages w/up to 6 or 8 KDs, all by their lonesome... maybe 5 pistol shots along with 'em... or not!

 

Eight, nine or 10 rifle rounds with 5 pistol... I doubt anyone here has shot one.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Old school went over the cliff when match organizers realized that money could be made. More classes, big and close targets with minimal movement draws the paying customers.

 

The days of SASS being a fantasy sport, played by Cowpokes reliving their youth with real firearms and for bragging rights is long gone.

Where do you get the "Minimal Movement" stuff??????? The Big and Close matches that are successful have a good amount of movement...but then that wouldn't fit the narrative of "Stand and Deliver"...okay...got it.

 

[Matthew Duncan]

 

Where do you get the "Minimal Movement" stuff??????? The Big and Close matches that are successful have a good amount of movement...but then that wouldn't fit the narrative of "Stand and Deliver"...okay...got it.

 

Phantom you surprised me. I figured you would go after the term "classes".

[Yul Lose]

Old school went over the cliff when match organizers realized that money could be made. More classes, big and close targets with minimal movement draws the paying customers.

The days of SASS being a fantasy sport, played by Cowpokes reliving their youth with real firearms and for bragging rights is long gone.

Oh I don't know about that just yesterday I was a cowpoke reliving my youth with real firearms and had a blast with big close targets and there was plenty of movement. I feel the same way at every match I attend. What's wrong with paying customers that like the product that they pay for?

[Oklahomabound]

Our club, Indian Territory Single Action Shooting Society, follows the SASS guidelines for the monthly shoots (yes plural-count 3) - but we do have the occasion where targets are set at the SASS max distance with varied engagement... and for the State Championship the targets are large and up close...

 

...howsomever, we do have another annual shoot (Pursuit into the Osage Nation) (http://www.itsass.net/pursuit/) held at Woolaroc (http://www.woolaroc.org/) where we shoot smaller targets at long distances (even across a lake). And there is no penalty for "Procedural" but a miss is 10 seconds; and yes you have to use the front sight of the revolver, rifle, and shotgun. This match has a loyal following and a great amount of fun...

 

...its all about offering a variety...