Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Oh, Swell...! Push To Make Working On Your Own Car Illegal "One of the inherent rights of owning a vehicle is the ability to get on one’s backside — a wrench in one hand and a grease rag in the other, and just tinker to your little heart’s desire. Since the vehicle was invented, it’s been an important facet within the community of gearheads. "General Motors — the same company responsible for 87 deaths related to faulty ignition switches, FYI — wants to take that right away from you citing safety and security issues. Along with a few other big names. "It’s called the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). It’s been around since 2000 and started as anti-Internet piracy legislation. But automakers want to use it to try and make working on your own car illegal. Yes, illegal. The general premise is that unlike cars of the past, today’s vehicles are so advanced and use such a large amount of software and coding in their general makeup, altering said code could be dangerous and possibly even malicious." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 This pretty much is a software/chip/onboard computer issue. Most people do not have the EPROM readers and progs or the other equipment to mess with this stuff. I do know a guy down the street that can do this and does on his Ford PU. Interesting what he can do. Not gonna touch those of us who replace our own plugs/shocks etc. Now anyone want to come over and help me build this 3.6 Porsche engine?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted May 24, 2015 Author Share Posted May 24, 2015 I've read several articles on this, and some indicate it may be a bit more to it, even extending to reading codes. And as machinery becomes more sophisticated, many users/owners are going to want to continue working on them anyway, much to the chagrin of the businessmen who INSIST a "Check Engine Light" means you have to see the dealer immediately - no options. This brings to mind automobile manufacturers arguments of a few decades ago that warranties were voided if you did not have THEM do every oil change when scheduled - and which the courts eventually ruled was so much road apples. Check out John Deere's take on the subject: Nothing Runs Like a Deer. Heck...Those clowns even claim allowing users to work on their own equipment will lead to music pirating! They can pound sand, as far as I'm concerned. Now... regarding Porsche... if you were a mite closer I'd be on my way!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elk Creek LeMieux Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 We don't drive Chevy or own Deere... I have software reading capability. For the software stuff I have, the third or fourth time I plugged into one of our pickups instead paying the dealer to do it, it paid for itself. And it's already almost illegal to mess with the computer on modern vehicles, in some states. Mess with the emissions programs, and it becomes a federal matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly McCrae Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 I took my wife's car in to the dealer for an oil change and tire rotation last winter. The "technician" who did the tire rotation forgot to switch the direction of the wench and rolled the threads over on one of the lugs. The idiot who did it had the stones to hand me the lug nut and tried to tell me that whoever worked on that wheel last did it. I informed him that I've bee a Jouneyman Machinist for 40yrs and I know a screwup on threads when I see one. I repaired the lug myself and loosened and retightened all the lugs with a torque wrench. If the gov't makes it illegal to work on my own vehicles, I'll just go down to the secretary of states office and take the test and get licensed for basic repair. For computerized repairs the equipment costs too much to amort the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 I have not turned a wrench on one of my vehicles since 1999. It's just easier to run it to the shop that does all the work on our cruisers. Having a shop you can trust put an end to the DIY days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 It is cheaper (for me) to let the experts do it, than to pay for them to undo what I've screwed up. Of course that doesn't apply to all the computer equipment I'd have to invest in to do it myself to start with. And, frankly, when other teens were messing with cars (back in the 1950's), I was designing liquid propellant rocket engines. I know where the gas goes in my vehicle, and I can check the oil. After that...it goes to the repair shop pros! It ain't rocket science...which is why I don't mess with cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 I've read several articles on this, and some indicate it may be a bit more to it, even extending to reading codes. They can pound sand, as far as I'm concerned. On my 2002 Jeep I can read the codes on my odometer by turning the key to the "on" position three times. A P0442 is a minor emissions leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted May 24, 2015 Author Share Posted May 24, 2015 Heck... you can get an OBD II as well as other analysis apps for your darned phone for as little as five bucks now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 We can thank our Bar association for all this stuff. Manufacturers are trying to limit their liability from all the frivolous lawsuits that our legal system allows. And if limiting their liability means more business for their dealers, then so much the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Hardpan C that engine is going into the 1940 914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 1940? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 I used to put a chain on the hood of my hotrods so nobody could check out my stuff. I can do that again. My modifications are MY intellectual property and nobody but me is entitled to them without paying me!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted May 24, 2015 Author Share Posted May 24, 2015 1940? Secret designed temporarily shelved for the war... Muleshoe, you're building your own 914-6...? That be WAY cool!!! Pictures!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 We can thank our Bar association for all this stuff. Manufacturers are trying to limit their liability from all the frivolous lawsuits that our legal system allows. And if limiting their liability means more business for their dealers, then so much the better. Not sure I follow, Slim. Frivolous lawsuits concerning what? As I understand it, this is the latest in a series of attempts by the major auto makers to maintain control over the data required to service their cars. Here, they tried to exclude non-dealer mechanic shops from technical data, leading to litigation and, ultimately, a referendum on the issue. I worked for a dealer for several years. The car sales business has gotten more and more competitive, and margins are slimmer and slimmer. Reading the hand-writing on the wall, dealers are investing in larger, better equipped service facilities, where they can make more money servicing cars than they did selling them. Of course, that goes to pot if non-dealer mechanics and owners are able to do some or all of the same work in their own garages. I haven't heard of any rash of private litigation over "right to repair" - but then, it might be a regional thing. But in any event, I wouldn't blame lawyers for this one. LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 I've read several articles on this, and some indicate it may be a bit more to it, even extending to reading codes. And as machinery becomes more sophisticated, many users/owners are going to want to continue working on them anyway, much to the chagrin of the businessmen who INSIST a "Check Engine Light" means you have to see the dealer immediately - no options. This brings to mind automobile manufacturers arguments of a few decades ago that warranties were voided if you did not have THEM do every oil change when scheduled - and which the courts eventually ruled was so much road apples. Check out John Deere's take on the subject: Nothing Runs Like a Deer. Heck...Those clowns even claim allowing users to work on their own equipment will lead to music pirating! They can pound sand, as far as I'm concerned. Now... regarding Porsche... if you were a mite closer I'd be on my way!! IIRC.... The laws that John Deere and other farm equipment manufacturers use to keep you from working on their equipment especially the computers were deemed not applicable several years ago when it came to automobiles. Too many independent mechanics and auto parts suppliers out there to suddenly put them all out of work. They as an industry lobbied and the auto manufacturers had to relent. Auto makers had to make the documentation and specialized tools available to mechanics other than their own dealerships. Farm equipment is such a small but exceptionally high dollar industry that they have effectively shut independent mechanics out of working on newer equipment. You cannot even purchase schematics showing how your tractor is wired. Thay have applied the DMCA to perfection. Sounds like the auto industry is back at it, this time using the DMCA and public safety to monopolize the auto repair industry and force the non-dealer repair shops out of business. They will have an uphill battle due to the number of jobs at stake. However knowing our government they will win and put tens of millions of people out of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Not sure I follow, Slim. Frivolous lawsuits concerning what? As I understand it, this is the latest in a series of attempts by the major auto makers to maintain control over the data required to service their cars. Here, they tried to exclude non-dealer mechanic shops from technical data, leading to litigation and, ultimately, a referendum on the issue. I worked for a dealer for several years. The car sales business has gotten more and more competitive, and margins are slimmer and slimmer. Reading the hand-writing on the wall, dealers are investing in larger, better equipped service facilities, where they can make more money servicing cars than they did selling them. Of course, that goes to pot if non-dealer mechanics and owners are able to do some or all of the same work in their own garages. I haven't heard of any rash of private litigation over "right to repair" - but then, it might be a regional thing. But in any event, I wouldn't blame lawyers for this one. LL +10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Bob Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Ever hear of Helm Inc, helminc.com? You can purchase the shop service manuals for most vehicles including GM. You can even order it from the back of most Chevy owners manuals, which I have done. The books cover EVERYTHING!! Even if you do not have all the test equipment, there are usually other ways to do those tests mentioned in these books. It would seem to me that GM has already set a precedent that their computer "stuff" should be available to all it's owners, making their claim invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panhandle Paladin Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 If I cant work on my own stuff, Ill just restore a pre computer auto and drive it. Probably oughta do that anyway, The durn Gubment has tracking on all them computerized rigs, anyway! Waiting for all the replies telling me Im wrong about that, but nobody can tell me for sure it aint true, so I'd rather be safe than sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Howdy, I had a Camaro that was only touched by others for real complex work. Replace flywheel, convert to power steering, total carb rebuild. And one or two minor body work. I did tuneups, suspension work, body work, touchup paint all sorts of little repairs. I had the car 17 years and it was never 'down' except in winter when garaged. You haven't really lived until you set valves on a hot running chev V8. 290 hp. Horses with hooves like barrels and chests like barns... Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 As a lawyer, I can say this, Lawyers are tools(and yes some are Tools)-similar to firearms they don't do anything on their own-(some simply don't seem to do anything) Businesses wanting a monopoly and to be able to suck every penny out of the average person's pocket are the problem. Perhaps so many people being obsessed with wealth as a measure of their own personal value is the basis for the problem. Maybe we should measure our worth on something more important-like our family, our friends, and striving to maintain our own personal code of honor. If working on cars is outlawed, I'll be an outlaw- No man should accept or obey a law that is contrary to their natural rights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Little story about having oil changed at a dealer. I couldn't figure out how to use my new-to-me Mazda's GPS. It looked like it had one, it came with the booklet for one, and the sales woman said it had it. So, for the first oil change, I took it to a Mazda dealer to have them help me with the GPS. Hubby has always done oil changes. Turned out it didn't have a GPS. I got one at no charge from the dealer (Infinity) where I bought it used with 1400 miles on it. Back to the oil, the Mazda dealer charged me for an oil change. Next oil change, Hubby decided to do himself. He found that it had not been changed. The plug (or whatever) had never been removed. Hubby said we couldn't prove it. So, we did nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Loco Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 The stupid thing is, the basic componets of an automobile haven't changed since the forties. Only the electronics are "now". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sarge Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I've been planning to buy an SCT Livewire tuner for my diesel. These let you run custom tunes to increase horsepower and fuel economy. It also diagnosis errroe messages. Is this what they are trying to outlaw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Little story about having oil changed at a dealer. I couldn't figure out how to use my new-to-me Mazda's GPS. It looked like it had one, it came with the booklet for one, and the sales woman said it had it. So, for the first oil change, I took it to a Mazda dealer to have them help me with the GPS. Hubby has always done oil changes. Turned out it didn't have a GPS. I got one at no charge from the dealer (Infinity) where I bought it used with 1400 miles on it. Back to the oil, the Mazda dealer charged me for an oil change. Next oil change, Hubby decided to do himself. He found that it had not been changed. The plug (or whatever) had never been removed. Hubby said we couldn't prove it. So, we did nothing. It is possible to change the oil without removing the oil pan plug. In some instances it is quicker and easier than accessing the drain plug in the pan. Also removes the possibility of damaging the drain plug or having to deal with one someone else damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elk Creek LeMieux Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I've been planning to buy an SCT Livewire tuner for my diesel. These let you run custom tunes to increase horsepower and fuel economy. It also diagnosis errroe messages. Is this what they are trying to outlaw? That's one of many things they're trying to outlaw in the diesel pickup industry, thanks to all the kids that have faaaaar more money than I did in high school/right out of high school. My wife's pickup has a SCT TS with Gearhead tunes. Very happy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 this might force me to get back to wor& on the 1954 Chevy pu , just to rile em up , 5 window , 235 , 4sp Hydromatic , 1st year of a auto in Chevy trucks CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 https://www.yahoo.com/tech/general-motors-dont-touch-your-cars-software-119885316934.html Check this out. Interesting read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elk Creek LeMieux Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 https://www.yahoo.com/tech/general-motors-dont-touch-your-cars-software-119885316934.html Check this out. Interesting read. Couple good chuckles in there... Also didn't realize GM was driving the train for this round of controversy... Gotta laugh again, as Duramax diesel computers are about the most easily tuned (hacked) of the big three's diesels. The software developed for tuning them is by far the most inclusive, and has remained that way for quite a while. Ford changes their encryption every new model, and the latest model took close to a year for the tuners to figure out. Dodge has only had "advanced" options on par with the GM options for the last few years. Before that, standalone aftermarket computers were being used by the big power guys to get them to run right. So, looks to me like GM is having a tantrum because they have the easiest encryption to beat. And if they lock us out, it'll take a month or so for a standalone aftermarket option to become available. Bow tie hot rods have always been in the mix, gear heads aren't beat that easily... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 It's like when GM abandoned all racing activity back in the early sixties. "We won't do it but we'll tell you how and sell you all of the parts so you can do it yourself!" I remember the original Z28s with the cross ram 2 X 4bbl carb and intake system wrapped in burlap and shipped to the buyer in the trunk of the car. Before that, the 409 engines assembled with two head gaskets under each head and sold as 425 hp engines. You'd pull the heads and remove one head gasket from under each, reassemble it and have well over 500 hp. This all sounds to me like Brer Rabbit hollering', "Whatever you do, don't throw me in the briar patch!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Rabbit STEW ........... yumm CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT. QUINCANNON, SASS #32999 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 When torque wrenches are outlawed, only outlaws will have torque wrenches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 NO , not an UN regestered torque wrench it be for the kids , don'tyaknow CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaukValley Sam, SASS # 66557 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 My GMC Canyon 4cyl idles at 900 rpm. Rough idle. Asked dealer to bump idle up to 1000 rpm where it runs smooth. They told me its all in the programming and they can not change idle. I have asked several different service managers at different times and get same answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I see some unregistered lug nuts. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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