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Leaving The Loading Table With Loaded Pistols...How Far is Too Far?


Cypress Sun

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If you have stepped away from the table with the intention of heading somewhere other than the firing line or the expediter position it would seem that you have violated the rule. Doesn't it?

 

Stan

I've seen folks take a step or two to throw something into their cart (loading strip, etc.) which is to me at least, so much the better than leaving it on the darn table for everyone else to push around/ move/ deal with...so... no intent... and didn't just leave.

 

To those who say, "leave the guns on the table". I used to do that until the shooter in front of me pushed his guns forward and knocked the next shooters loaded gun to the ground MATCH DQ on the other shooter. So, unless you have a table Nazi mine are going into my holsters, which also takes up less room for others trying to load....simple courtesy really.

 

Heck, some shooters like a little room to visualize/ pantomime- obviously they aren't tethered or glued to the table- but they didn't go anywhere either.

 

If you leave the table.... you left the table... SRS has it right. Leave everyone else alone to whatever/ however they prepare best.

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+1 on this, I do exactly the same thing. I can fit all 4 guns in a narrow enough space that it doesn't cause an issue with other shooters.

 

Holler

Good point

However

Some folks will not stand for there own guns touching each other on the table or

Some folks are not as like minded as you

Some loading tables may not accommodate three shooters like that

I load mine then place them where they belong, in my holsters

If I feel the need to return to my cart to simply place my empty loading strip,,,,I stake mine if necessary

Then I stress out about someone pushing me to far from the table, (SDQ) instead of stressing that my guns may touch each other, or that someone else may even touch my guns, replacing / advancing them in progression, giving them room to load their own Guns

 

If you leave the table

You, leave the table

Loaded guns or no loaded guns

the distance and intent is the same

Penalty only applies to one of the above

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I've seen folks take a step or two to throw something into their cart (loading strip, etc.) which is to me at least, so much the better than leaving it on the darn table for everyone else to push around/ move/ deal with...so... no intent... and didn't just leave.

 

To those who say, "leave the guns on the table". I used to do that until the shooter in front of me pushed his guns forward and knocked the next shooters loaded gun to the ground MATCH DQ on the other shooter. So, unless you have a table Nazi mine are going into my holsters, which also takes up less room for others trying to load....simple courtesy really.

 

Heck, some shooters like a little room to visualize/ pantomime- obviously they aren't tethered or glued to the table- but they didn't go anywhere either.

 

If you leave the table.... you left the table... SRS has it right. Leave everyone else alone to whatever/ however they prepare best.

Hey Brother King,

 

Are you saying the shooter whose loaded gun was knocked to the ground by another shooter received the MDQ? Wow! I would think the perp should get the MDQ.

 

Good point

However

Some folks will not stand for there own guns touching each other on the table or

Some folks are not as like minded as you

Some loading tables may not accommodate three shooters like that

I load mine then place them where they belong, in my holsters

If I feel the need to return to my cart to simply place my empty loading strip,,,,I stake mine if necessary

Then I stress out about someone pushing me to far from the table, (SDQ) instead of stressing that my guns may touch each other, or that someone else may even touch my guns, replacing / advancing them in progression, giving them room to load their own Guns

 

If you leave the table

You, leave the table

Loaded guns or no loaded guns

the distance and intent is the same

Penalty only applies to one of the above

I'm one of those who don't like my guns to be crowded or moved by others. Unfortunately it's all to common here for someone to slide another shooter's guns over to make room. There's grit and stuff on the tables sometimes and it can scratch up your guns. I've also seen shooters bang their guns into other's guns while moving them around. Not good.

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If you have stepped away from the table with the intention of heading somewhere other than the firing line or the expediter position it would seem that you have violated the rule. Doesn't it?

 

Stan

Ta Daaaa!! :D

 

If you leave the table

You, leave the table

Loaded guns or no loaded guns

the distance and intent is the same

Penalty only applies to one of the above

Yep, it's that simple ;) ...........................however I'm bettin we make it to page 5 with in depth explaining :wacko::blink: I got my stage SDQ when I first started.....never fergot after that one ;):P

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Hey Brother King,

 

Are you saying the shooter whose loaded gun was knocked to the ground by another shooter received the MDQ? Wow!

I would think the perp should get the MDQ.

Absolutely...the person responsible for the guns hitting the ground ... NOT the owner of the guns.

<_<

 

I'm one of those who don't like my guns to be crowded or moved by others. Unfortunately it's all to common here for someone to slide another shooter's guns over to make room. There's grit and stuff on the tables sometimes and it can scratch up your guns. I've also seen shooters bang their guns into other's guns while moving them around. Not good.

That would happen maybe ONCE...quite likely to cause some "interpersonal conflict".

:angry:

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Loaded revolvers and rifles remain at the LT (loading table), usually holstered, for a reason.

 

That eason is that the LT is the first step in the firing line process of loading, engaging targets and shooting, and then, proceeding to the ULT (unloading table) to clear the weapons and secure them again in an unloaded condition.

 

Why is that specific, more or less crescent, area of real estate and the load-shoot-unload process (adequately covered by the rules, by the way) important?

 

It is important because SASS rules insist that loaded weapons stay on the firing line and away from the general, unloaded populace at the match. It's common sense and very safe. Break that rule routinely and eventually, someone will be killed. The idea that the entire stage area (scoring, cart parking, BSing amongst others on the posee, etc.), IS the firing line is a plausible, but wrong, wrong, wrong, arguement in my opinion.

Cat Brules

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I am T.G. didn't know about the S D Q till after the match. But also didn't know I was to give rule class's and I did go to a R O 1 refresher class I was always told arms length was a general rule with a little common since, If any one remembers what that is. I feel the Match director handled this properly.

Chance

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+1 on this, I do exactly the same thing. I can fit all 4 guns in a narrow enough space that it doesn't cause an issue with other shooters.

 

Holler

That is my practice after I received a SDQ, as next shooter, when I stepped 2-3 paces toward the firing line with holstered revolvers to get in the shade.

 

Jus sayin'

 

AR

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Out of curiosity, who is supposed to call the SDQ for this violation? The LTO? I think for most of us, the LTO is just the next shooter in line. I woulda thunk it would be the TO, as I think they are the first line arbiters of all penalties, but then the TO is most likely in the middle of timing a shooter when this occurs. I know we are all safety officers at a SASS match, I'm just wondering who to tell when it's not the current shooter doing it. I guess the same question would apply if there's a problem at the ULT, like a live round left in the chamber. If the next shooter has already started, what do we do?

 

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Out of curiosity, who is supposed to call the SDQ for this violation?

For crying out loud

It is a safety violation

At shooters meetings we are told over and over and over that we are all safety officers

 

This ought to ad a page or two more in posts'

 

If you see it happen, go up the chain of command, timer operator is probably timing someone, wait tell the stage is done,

if there is a LTO,

THEY SHOULD HAVE body slammed the alleged perp to the ground by now, etc

If the electric shock collar failed, check the batteries,

Geese folks, this is not like sending someone too the international space center

 

Its a family get together, where safety is first, fun is second, and no cash or real prizes are awarded at the end of the shoot based upon placings, award penalties as and when they are earned without calling in lawyers to represent both sides

 

 

 

 

 

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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What is truly sad about this tale is that in the OP it is mentioned that someone proffered that because no specific distance is noted regarding precise proximity to the table, that a guy being a good twenty feet away from it is a "no call" etc, as if any reasonable human being would honestly agree that someone twenty feet from the loading table is still somehow "at" said loading table. Unreal...

 

THAT way of thinking is largely why we need so damned many rules and regs in the first place - someone always looking for that loophole to slither through! :angry:

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Put me on another posse I rather not shoot with the shooter who walked away from the table and all those that don't see a problem with it, for whatever reason he left the table period -pentaly earned end of sidcussion lets shoot.

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For crying out loud

It is a safety violation

At shooters meetings we are told over and over and over that we are all safety officers

 

This ought to ad a page or two more in posts'

 

If you see it happen, go up the chain of command, timer operator is probably timing someone, wait tell the stage is done,

if there is a LTO,

THEY SHOULD HAVE body slammed the alleged perp to the ground by now, etc

If the electric shock collar failed, check the batteries,

Geese folks, this is not like sending someone too the international space center

 

Its a family get together, where safety is first, fun is second, and no cash or real prizes are awarded at the end of the shoot based upon placings, award penalties as and when they are earned without calling in lawyers to represent both sides

 

 

 

 

 

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Yes, a SASS rule was broken by leaving the LT to go back to cart. Penalty earned.

 

Unsafe act? no more unsafe than standing at LT with loaded pistols in holster. But a rule was broken and thus, penalty earned.

 

All are safety officers as been mentioned. No one paid any attention and spoke up as he was leaving LT?

 

Here recently, I have witnessed kind hearted posse members (acting like safety officers) gently herd shooters toward the ULT as they were absent mindedly heading (short circuit) to their gun cart.

 

So, if peanut gallery can call this penalty, then I suppose peanut gallery can call safety violations from the fence on shooter shooting the stage. Thus, we have a whole posse of potential scorers.

 

Which is more unsafe,,, shooter having long gun in one hand with cartridge on carrier and a pistol in other hand with live round in cylinder or under hammer, or a loaded pistol in holster? By SASS rules, the first is more safe. Logic, which means nothing, says holstered pistol. Rules are rules and must be obeyed.

 

Just an opinion on this early morning.

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Yes, a SASS rule was broken by leaving the LT to go back to cart. Penalty earned.

 

Unsafe act? no more unsafe than standing at LT with loaded pistols in holster. But a rule was broken and thus, penalty earned.

 

All are safety officers as been mentioned. No one paid any attention and spoke up as he was leaving LT?

 

...

Which is more unsafe,,, shooter having long gun in one hand with cartridge on carrier and a pistol in other hand with live round in cylinder or under hammer, or a loaded pistol in holster? By SASS rules, the first is more safe. Logic, which means nothing, says holstered pistol. Rules are rules and must be obeyed.

To which rules might you be referring here??

 

Just an opinion on this early morning.

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If some of y'all knew the whole story(not going to be disclosed by me) some of y'all would come off as total asses with your assumptions :angry:

 

You will never see me start a WTC again and most likely never comment on any other.

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Yes, a SASS rule was broken by leaving the LT to go back to cart. Penalty earned.

 

Unsafe act? no more unsafe than standing at LT with loaded pistols in holster. But a rule was broken and thus, penalty earned.

 

All are safety officers as been mentioned. No one paid any attention and spoke up as he was leaving LT?

 

...

Which is more unsafe,,, shooter having long gun in one hand with cartridge on carrier and a pistol in other hand with live round in cylinder or under hammer, or a loaded pistol in holster? By SASS rules, the first is more safe. Logic, which means nothing, says holstered pistol. Rules are rules and must be obeyed.

To which rules might you be referring here??

 

Just an opinion on this early morning.

 

Based upon the UMTC thread started by Sergent duroc, 27sept14

 

Post #6,15,20,21,33 and your Post#35.

 

You had issues with 'dropped' round and shooter not touching/holding SG while shooting last round of pistol. I understand your concern and where you were coming from.

 

But if shooter placed hull in action 'and' held it while finishing pistol string, like I said in the above post, i interpet (sp) from the above, that it would be legal.

 

not a written rule, but a clarification of the rules from you and the ROC. NO??

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I've had to call it on a shooter..

I was loading.. shooter behind me left the loading table unbeknownced to me..

Went to his car?? :blink:

As he walked back up to the Loading Table he had his pistols in his holsters..

I asked him if his pistols were loaded.. He said yes..

I told him he needs to unload and report it to the T/O.. He did..

He said he got half way to his car and knew he was in trouble..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' most folks know better but forget.. :wacko:

I was a Safety Officer again that day :blush:

Didn't like it.. but that's the rule..

 

 

PS.. gave warnings to quite a few folks.. stuff happens.. :mellow:

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I wanted to add to this thread that the shooter in question did not contest the call. they did accept the SDQ and learned from it. i didn't see it personally but rules are rules and the shooter does understand that. BTW this was the first SDQ for this shooter as well.

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Like so many others, pistols are holstered once they are loaded. At the point, there is no walking away - period. It's up to the shooter to be squared away once they start loading. I have unholstered my pistols taking great care not to sweep anyone, placed them on the table, and then proceeded to chase my wind-blown hat across the ground. Walking off with loaded pistolas is bad juju. I've called the wife over and asked her to retrieve my forgotten empty bag or needed something else (a cold swig of water sure is nice right before you go up)

 

my rifle and SG are kept together on the table in a neat pile. I pick them up (not slide) and move them forward as space allows. I've moved a step or two from the table to allow another shooter room to load. Once I'm next (either at the table or pre-staged), my SG and rifle go into my hand, butt's on the table muzzle up. At the point, I don't move unless I'm told to.

 

Never seen anyone handle another persons guns unless they were related - that just seems bad all the way around.

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If some of y'all knew the whole story(not going to be disclosed by me) some of y'all would come off as total asses with your assumptions :angry:

 

You will never see me start a WTC again and most likely never comment on any other.

Wyatt,

This is the wire, first assumptions are usually based upon the post as it was written, with no knowledge of the whole story,,,or

if the whole story was or waz not shared

 

Then the wire being what it is, , , , , , the postings more reflect a small stick floating down a moving stream, where it goes-nobody knows

Well at our shoot!

Well I have seen!

Well we need a definitive answer!

Then it meanders to

Well, if pigs could fly, would you still look up

 

It's entertainment with a few facts, and many opinions is awl

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For crying out loud

It is a safety violation

At shooters meetings we are told over and over and over that we are all safety officers

 

I don't understand why you're crying out loud or jumping my case for this question. If you take the time to read my post, I said pretty clearly that I know we're all safety officers and I was just wondering who I'm supposed to report it to since the TO would probably be busy. One thing I've never heard at a safety meeting is what you're supposed to do when you witness a safety violation or what the 'chain of command' is, as you put it. TO is the only one I know to bring concerns to, or the match director if I feel like it needs to be turned into a federal case.

 

Excuse the heck outta me for being a newbie and daring to watch for violations.

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RG how about the shooter to let him know he is wrong then the posse marshal or match director if they are on your posse. If not wait until the to is done timing the shooter has reported to the score keeper and the range is being prepped. The thing to do is alert the shooter so that the safety incident can be halted and most will report themselves they just have something else on there mind and probably didn't realize what they were doing most of the time.

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It is unfortunate the shooter got the SDQ. Some where, many posts above, was mentioned he was the last shooter and there was no LT person.

There's the rest of the issue. I love cowboys with suspenders, real handy to haul 'em back before they get away! The LT person should stay until the shooter goes to expedite position or is called to the line.

 

In places that do "watch each other" somebody should come over for the last shooter. We often put newer shooters late in the lineup so they can watch how the stage flows for awhile. It's a bad idea to leave them alone at the loading table. SASS is like Girl Scouts, we go in pairs, we watch each other, we help each other and we are NOT trying to hunt for an infraction, we are trying to help our pards and make sure it doesn't happen. It's really no different than being the RO and seeing the shooter grab for the shotgun when pistol is next and hollering "Pistol!" in an effort to keep the shooter from getting a Procedural.

Two heads are better than one.

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I don't understand why you're crying out loud or jumping my case for this question. If you take the time to read my post, I said pretty clearly that I know we're all safety officers and I was just wondering who I'm supposed to report it to since the TO would probably be busy. One thing I've never heard at a safety meeting is what you're supposed to do when you witness a safety violation or what the 'chain of command' is, as you put it. TO is the only one I know to bring concerns to, or the match director if I feel like it needs to be turned into a federal case.

Excuse the heck outta me for being a newbie and daring to watch for violations.

My intention is not to jump anyone's case

I thought you asked who was a safety officer, I did not read into it, who does the safety officer report to

My mistake

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The WTC has been answered but some of the responses are troubling.

Where we shoot we have determined that the shooter owns everything he does so,

 

There is no LTO. Why if the round count is off or, or the LTO has no responsibility. So why use them.

The shooter can holster their pistols or leave them on the table, it's up to them.

No one should ever touch anyones guns unless the owner says it's OK....period. I had a guy start taking my rifle apart at the ULT when it had a jamb.

One arms length from the table is our rule if your loaded pistols are in the holsters.

 

Once again common sense and logic applied should be the rule rather than getting the word lawyers out.

The KISS method should be applied more often here.

Ike

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It is unfortunate the shooter got the SDQ. Some where, many posts above, was mentioned he was the last shooter and there was no LT person.

There's the rest of the issue. I love cowboys with suspenders, real handy to haul 'em back before they get away! The LT person should stay until the shooter goes to expedite position or is called to the line.

 

In places that do "watch each other" somebody should come over for the last shooter. We often put newer shooters late in the lineup so they can watch how the stage flows for awhile. It's a bad idea to leave them alone at the loading table. SASS is like Girl Scouts, we go in pairs, we watch each other, we help each other and we are NOT trying to hunt for an infraction, we are trying to help our pards and make sure it doesn't happen. It's really no different than being the RO and seeing the shooter grab for the shotgun when pistol is next and hollering "Pistol!" in an effort to keep the shooter from getting a Procedural.

Two heads are better than one.

I just spent the better part of an hour trying to get the image of Madd Mike- Girl Scout out of my head. And I ain't holdin hands w/ Anvil Al no matter what.
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I would respectfully have to disagree. The harm of having a nonchalant or whatever just be safe attitude is this. Basically it's training your clubs shooters to not really know the rules. Because things may be uninforced at your club and in forced at another. When they get the so called "hard ass" call that's really just a normal rule. That's when feelings get hurt and people get mad! And this happens when the violation is legitimate.

It's just as easy to start right and have fun as it is to start off wrong and have fun. Less problems in the long run.

View from my saddle.

Regards,

Ringer

 

Agreed. Look I am just saying that sometimes we get a little carried away. If it is safe to advance to the firing point with holstered loaded pistols and I am sure we can all agree to that, it is no less safe to go all the way to the ULT to retrieve a necessary piece of equipment. So if it is not unsafe, why have the convention that it is. No one has yet showed the rule that it is specifically illegal either.

 

 

 

 

I may be reading you wrong so please clarify. Are you saying it wasn't an unsafe action because nobody was harmed? Throughout history there have probably been MILLIONS of unsafe actions performed where nobody got hurt. They were still unsafe actions.

 

That being said, I carry a loaded weapon all the time so no, I don't think it's an unsafe action. Just don't agree with the reasoning if I'm reading your statement correctly.

 

Nope you read it right and probably got my intent right as well.

 

 

That is my practice after I received a SDQ, as next shooter, when I stepped 2-3 paces toward the firing line with holstered revolvers to get in the shade.

 

Jus sayin'

 

AR

 

 

That was not justice.

 

All right, if we are gonna have a little lee way. Stepping away a "few steps" to toss the strip back in the cart is technically the same as stepping all the way across the firing line to retrieve the shotgun. At least the action in the OP was only and all along the firing line whereas stepping back any amount is not. If one is ok then so should the other be.

 

Face it. We have no rule about it or someone would have quoted it chapter and verse by now. Just because we have always sort of had a convention about it won't cut it. That makes it subjective. We cannot play by subjective unwritten unspecified rules or non rules.

 

So I still maintain the SDQ in the OP was a subjective punishment. And that is not justice. Lest it becomes well it's okay for me and so and so but not for YOU.

 

Listen, I would have been shouting at the shooter as loud as any of you had I observed it. And if I did not have loaded pistols in my holsters I would have shambled at my top crippled gait to grab the suspenders and drug the violator back with a good talking to and the admonition to table the pistols first. But I do not think I would have called it even if my slow shuffling self could not catch up before we got all the way to the ULT. But I do not believe I would have called it, just had the talk. All we have is a convention not a hard and fast rule. If I myownself were in a similar situation of course I would table the pistols first.

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See post #37

 

also:

 

If a Range Officer elects not to penalize a shooter that has not complied with a rule, the effect is penalizing all other match participants that did comply.

 

RO1 p.14

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Not really sure where this thread was meant to go , more likely should be a "teaching moment" for newer shooters. We've been (Squeaky & I) shooting for 9 yrs.,RO2s for 8. Bottom line is that we were taught, on the line and in practice, the SASS rules starting at our very 1st match in 5/05, having thought we already were familiar of everything to do correctly at our 1st match thru the SASS website. NOT!!! The AZ clubs are GREAT for welcoming AND teaching new shooters of the written, and "understood" rules.

None of the AZ clubs that we know have ever had an LTO, except at the state match, just the other shooters watching the "new guys". We were taught from the outset that if ya' had need to leave the "area" of the LT, pistols were unholstered and left on the table. I clearly remember being screamed at by someone when I "forgot" and started to head to my cart for something. Happened many yrs ago, but I still remember it! In my opinion, it's not so important that a penalty (SDQ) be assessed to a new shooter for a 1st such infraction as it is that they be made sternly aware that "that's the rule, rookie", don't do it again!!! If you pay attention to your new shooters at the getgo, they learn quick, most of them anyway. Bet all of you remember how scary those 1st coupla' matches were and tryin' to remember all those safety rules. Hopefully, your club(s) spend lotsa' time teachin' your new shooters and don't play hardass right out of the shute when they mess up. Doesn't work too good for dogs or horses, bad idea for new shooters too. 'Course if an old dog like me wanders away with loaded guns, drop the hammer hard and gimme' a RETEACHING moment!

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Is a rule issue not a safety issue, if loaded guns with hammer down on an empty chamber are intrinsically unsafe; we have a silly and unnecessary rule requiring hammer down on an empty chamber.

Arizona is a funny place, Ben Avery is a public range as such open or concealed carry of loaded firearms is legal with or without a permit. During matches SASS matches at the firing line area SASS rules apply to those competing so no loaded guns at all except between the LT and ULT on the firing line. SASS folks competing need to obey the SASS rules essentially everywhere on the range between stages etc. The general public can carry loaded guns anywhere except on the firing line because only competitors are allowed there during the match.

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Is a rule issue not a safety issue, if loaded guns with hammer down on an empty chamber are intrinsically unsafe; we have a silly and unnecessary rule requiring hammer down on an empty chamber.

Arizona is a funny place, Ben Avery is a public range as such open or concealed carry of loaded firearms is legal with or without a permit. During matches SASS matches at the firing line area SASS rules apply to those competing so no loaded guns at all except between the LT and ULT on the firing line. SASS folks competing need to obey the SASS rules essentially everywhere on the range between stages etc. The general public can carry loaded guns anywhere except on the firing line because only competitors are allowed there during the match.

Really?

I have a friend who still walks with a limp today because he loaded 6 in his brand new (in 1968) single six.

He dropped his hand down on the hammer of his holstered gun and sent a 22 slug into his leg that lodged in his knee cap.

My new Blackhawks are fine to load six, but MANY older revolvers can surprise you with a bang.

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Really?

I have a friend who still walks with a limp today because he loaded 6 in his brand new (in 1968) single six.

He dropped his hand down on the hammer of his holstered gun and sent a 22 slug into his leg that lodged in his knee cap.

My new Blackhawks are fine to load six, but MANY older revolvers can surprise you with a bang.

Uh...dude...I think you mis-interpreted the posters remark...try reading the WHOLE sentence.

 

;)

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