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Leaving The Loading Table With Loaded Pistols...How Far is Too Far?


Cypress Sun

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I just spent the better part of an hour trying to get the image of Madd Mike- Girl Scout out of my head. And I ain't holdin hands w/ Anvil Al no matter what.

 

Only an hour? You've obviously never seen him in that little green skirt they wear. :wacko:

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Dreamt about this thread all night. Even tho I am way ounumbered here apparently I have made a good talking point and food for much thougt if not actual debate. Otherwise in Wahr tradition I would be getting soundly and roundly lambasted by now. Is it a good idea to walk away from the LT with holstered loaded pistols? We all agree it is not. The outcome of such a sin is what is in contention. When i was making traffic stops the offender would either get the lecture or "press hard, three copies". Never both. I much preferred to give the lecture than to get into a person's pocketbook. But, as Strother said "some men you just cain't reach".

 

If we are going to assess the SDQ penalty that is second only in severity to the MDQ death penalty then it surely behooves us to have a definitely defined rule in place that makes sense. Having it entirely up to the subjective whim of the person levying the SDQ makes no sense to me. If some big head SDQs me for taking two steps away from the table to stand in the shade I am going to whip out my fifty dollar bill protest fee and take it as far as they let me. If it is upheld fine keep my money. I will load up the truck and never return to your little fiefdom again. Doubt you will miss me and I know I will not miss such a place.

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Dreamt about this thread all night. Even tho I am way ounumbered here apparently I have made a good talking point and food for much thougt if not actual debate. Otherwise in Wahr tradition I would be getting soundly and roundly lambasted by now. Is it a good idea to walk away from the LT with holstered loaded pistols? We all agree it is not. The outcome of such a sin is what is in contention. When i was making traffic stops the offender would either get the lecture or "press hard, three copies". Never both. I much preferred to give the lecture than to get into a person's pocketbook. But, as Strother said "some men you just cain't reach".

 

If we are going to assess the SDQ penalty that is second only in severity to the MDQ death penalty then it surely behooves us to have a definitely defined rule in place that makes sense. Having it entirely up to the subjective whim of the person levying the SDQ makes no sense to me. If some big head SDQs me for taking two steps away from the table to stand in the shade I am going to whip out my fifty dollar bill protest fee and take it as far as they let me. If it is upheld fine keep my money. I will load up the truck and never return to your little fiefdom again. Doubt you will miss me and I know I will not miss such a place.

Has been stated that someone on deck, got SDQ for taking 2-3 steps forward to be in the shade.

 

Seems anyone can call the infraction. Nice!!

 

I see and have also done it myself (person on deck) to be half way to firing line in antisipation of being called (TO was gabbing and not paying attention, stage was reset, but still the person in charge),, and not being given a SDQ. I will refrain from doing that in the future for the sake of making the posse more efficient.

 

I (on deck) got a SDQ for taking a few steps sideways to put my Filson wool jacket on my gun cart so I didn't have to put it on the muddy ground. Went back to LT, got long guns picked up and was called. It was cold with a chilly breeze and you didn't want to shed the coat/gloves off to early. In looking back, I could've done some thing different, I accepted the penalty and the case is firmly burned in my memory. Person that gave me the SDQ then advanced half way to firing line w/o approval, stopped and then was called. A minor protest by me was given, and was rejected. Hmmmm, so much for any one can call the penalty.

 

Making sence of it has nothing to do with it. How the stars are aligned with the moon has more bearing on the outcome of the call.

 

Good luck, LD. Yur paddling up a water falls on this one. Save your protest money. About the only defense one has is to stay in the unofficial arms reach distance of the LT. Don't stand away to make room for next shooter. Anything farther than that is riskly.

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The only causes worth fighting are lost causes.

 

I may not can get too far paddling up the Niagra Falls ...

 

...but I am purdy good at grousing and gadflying....

 

 

In the interests of fairness to ALL and doing away with any shade of subjectivity in our calls and penalty assessments we really do need to get this big very gray area sorted out. Should have been done long ago. Instead we let long years of convention hold sway...

 

Reminds me of the parable of the five monkeys and the ladder

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The only causes worth fighting are lost causes.

 

I may not can get too far paddling up the Niagra Falls ...

 

...but I am purdy good at grousing and gadflying....

 

 

In the interests of fairness to ALL and doing away with any shade of subjectivity in our calls and penalty assessments we really do need to get this big very gray area sorted out. Should have been done long ago. Instead we let long years of convention hold sway...

 

Reminds me of the parable of the five monkeys and the ladder

 

That is the whole reason I started this thread. Vague rules lead to subjective calls. While 10' away from the LT may get a no call on one posse or range, 3' away may get a SDQ on another posse or range.

 

Is it common sense to stay within "reasonable" distance of the LT? Sure it is........but common sense is sometimes uncommon and what may be a "reasonable" distance to some, may not be to others.

 

We don't need tether ropes, lines painted on the ground, body slams from the LTO or anything like that (although the shock collar is somewhat intriguing), we just need some type of parameter to work with.

 

BTW, I've never heard of the 5 monkeys and a ladder. The 2 monkeys and a football I've witnessed too many times.

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Put 5 monkeys in a cage with a ladder in it. Put some fruit at the top of the ladder. Everytime a monkey starts up the ladder knock him off with a high pressure water hose. Blast the other 4 for good measure. Every time any of the monkeys trys to mount the ladder they get the water cannon. Pretty soon they stay clear of the ladder. Take one monkey out and put in a new one. Immediately newbie goes to go up the ladder but the other 4 pound hell out of him every time he does. Pretty soon he steers clear of the ladder too. Take out another monkey and add a fresh one. He gets the same treatment and soon learns we monkeys do not go up the ladder no matter how much of it there is and how tempting and succulent the fruit appears to be. Keep doing this until all the original monkeys are gone. The 5 monkeys in the cage will not approach the ladder even tho not one ever got the water cannon. If any one of them dares to step one foot up the ladder he is beaten unmercifully.

 

Moral of the story: we do not know why it is so, all we know is that it is the we have always done it around here...

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See post #37

 

also:

 

 

RO1 p.14

Ding- 2 x ding - 3 x DING

 

When a shooter earns a legitimate penalty, and is not awarded the legitimate punishment

You have just assessed that penalty ---- indirectly ---- to every other shooter at that match

True facts

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yeah but when a pard gets a SDQ for taking two steps to stand in the shade it is my contention that that is not a legitimate penalty. It smacks of being downright feather legged.

 

We need to make it consistent world wide. Take out all the subjectivity of the call. Subjective unjust calls just cause hard feelings and may lead to interpersonal conflicts.

 

Inconsistency is what drives kids nuts. Get plumb away with something one day, get spanked for it the next. Same with new shooters. Old shooters as well for that matter

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RO1-page14----

 

3. All firearms will remain unloaded except while under direct observation of a designated

person on the firing line or in the designated loading and unloading areas.

 

 

So, anyone (on deck) that advances to firing line, with loaded guns, (where you stage firearms) ..past arms length of LT,,,w/o 'direct observation of a designated person'..(TO or LTO,Expeditor), is in violation of item 3. and thus should receive the SDQ.

 

So I was correct in my protest and was penalized twice (1st for me doing it, 2nd for the other guy getting away with it) for same rule in the same match. Oh well, once you get a SDQ, your day is done.

 

Lets see how that works out at you all's next shoots. Perhaps you all run a tighter ship,,,which is good.

 

Thanks PWB for directions to this rule.

 

edit: I now see that this was hashed out back up in the 30's post with Wyatt.

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RG how about the shooter to let him know he is wrong then the posse marshal or match director if they are on your posse. If not wait until the to is done timing the shooter has reported to the score keeper and the range is being prepped. The thing to do is alert the shooter so that the safety incident can be halted and most will report themselves they just have something else on there mind and probably didn't realize what they were doing most of the time.
Of course, I don't intend to imply I wouldn't tell the shooter. I'm just looking to make sure the right call is made. I think I do a pretty good job of recognizing when something unsafe is happening at a range, but that doesn't mean I know the correct penalties (I'm a newbie to SASS, not a newbie to shooting). That's when I need to know where to find the proper authorities.

 

Agreed. Look I am just saying that sometimes we get a little carried away. If it is safe to advance to the firing point with holstered loaded pistols and I am sure we can all agree to that, it is no less safe to go all the way to the ULT to retrieve a necessary piece of equipment. So if it is not unsafe, why have the convention that it is. ...All right, if we are gonna have a little lee way. Stepping away a "few steps" to toss the strip back in the cart is technically the same as stepping all the way across the firing line to retrieve the shotgun. At least the action in the OP was only and all along the firing line whereas stepping back any amount is not. If one is ok then so should the other be.
You and I read that OP differently. Is it your belief that he walked across the firing line to pick up the shotgun? Would this be while someone else was shooting, or was it while they were resetting targets and shagging brass? Either way, unless he had been called to the line, he would have been in the way. My impression was that he walked behind the firing line. If he had been called up, and walked through to the ULT to get the SG, I would be on your side. But that's just not how I read the situation.
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It is amazing to me that not long ago the ROC addressed whether a lady can wear a dress for BW, but something that has a SDQ penalty has no definite

quideline as to distance...

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Individual ranges should establish the distance for applying the penalty and make it known to all participants.

 

If not disclosed to participants then first violation could be a warning/minor safety

 

................or just reduce penalty to MSV

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While I wouldn't say the guy who took two steps had the intention of leaving the lt. But the guy who walked across the berm to the ult did have the intention of leaving the lt. That's where the difference is. Intention. Moving out of the way of someone else is just cowboy, walking across the berm is just not thinking first. I'm sure if they would have thought it out they would have U holstered the handguns first before leaving the lt if a) they knew the rule and B) knew that they would be breaking it if they did go healed.

 

I'm my self have alerted several to the rule while waiting at the lt if I see they are about to break it and not one has not complied with the rule. Just like when im working the ult and a shooter is so happy from the stage they just shot or the opposite and head straight to their cart from the line. I call out to them they stop and head straight to the ult. not one ever said I'm not going to do it.

 

We get things on our mind when these things happen normally or are unaware of the rule. That why I'm a firm believer in telling all new shooter to get them a copy of the the shooters handbook and if the club offers a new shooters clinic they attend the next one. They can shoot in the mean time but someone needs to know that they're new to this even if it's not their first match. It takes a while before you can learn everything we need in this activity.

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Crime scene tape to mark the limits of Loading table area?

 

Even better two LTOs, velvet ropes the first can monitor loading and the second LTO can un clip the rope when the shooter is called to stage firearms.

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Crime scene tape to mark the limits of Loading table area?

 

Even better two LTOs, velvet ropes the first can monitor loading and the second LTO can un clip the rope when the shooter is called to stage firearms.

Crime scene tape is too 20th Century. I've seen it used at a match and disliked it. Velvet ropes seem too genteel for cowboys. I'm thinking barbed wire would be more western and would be quite effective. It could even be electrified for Wild Bunch matches since electrification was underway in the early 20th Century. :unsure::wacko:

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Like most everyone else is saying, arm's length is about as far as I'd be comfortable letting someone with loaded guns stray. Any farther and they aren't really AT the Loading Table.....are they?

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Like most everyone else is saying, arm's length is about as far as I'd be comfortable letting someone with loaded guns stray. Any farther and they aren't really AT the Loading Table.....are they?

Not bashing here.

 

But where did 'arms length' come from? About as valid as two-arms-length, to the cart, 10ft, 20ft, away, or ??? Yes, a crap shoot.

 

I can only 'guess' that the 'intent' (yes, I know, intent is a forbidden word in SASS conversation) was to keep people from wondering all over the place, like to the car, toilet, water trough, across the berm, where ever with loaded pistols. If no rule, then the offender could tell you where to go. So a rule with teeth was established and that is what we are living with. Unfortunitely, it was left for common sense, and that was probably all that was necessary and good in the earlier years.

 

Common sense can be defined about as well as how far away can one be from LT and still be there.

 

 

Is this a big problem? no, just a wakeup call to most, to be aware of potential penalties, depending on who you are shooting with.

 

 

 

edit: I usually can detect someones intent by seeing their actions, like the guy taking a few steps from LT to put his loading strip in his near by gun cart. But, rules are rules, right?

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Even tho I am way ounumbered here apparently I have made a good talking point and food for much thougt if not actual debate. Otherwise in Wahr tradition I would be getting soundly and roundly lambasted by now.

 

 

Either that or folks think you're so far off base they're not even bothering to reply.

 

(Please don't take that one seriously. Good natured ribbing. ;) )

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Not bashing here.

 

But where did 'arms length' come from? About as valid as two-arms-length, to the cart, 10ft, 20ft, away, or ??? Yes, a crap shoot.

 

I can only 'guess' that the 'intent' (yes, I know, intent is a forbidden word in SASS conversation) was to keep people from wondering all over the place, like to the car, toilet, water trough, across the berm, where ever with loaded pistols. If no rule, then the offender could tell you where to go. So a rule with teeth was established and that is what we are living with. Unfortunitely, it was left for common sense, and that was probably all that was necessary and good in the earlier years.

 

Common sense can be defined about as well as how far away can one be from LT and still be there.

 

 

Is this a big problem? no, just a wakeup call to most, to be aware of potential penalties, depending on who you are shooting with.

 

 

 

edit: I usually can detect someones intent by seeing their actions, like the guy taking a few steps from LT to put his loading strip in his near by gun cart. But, rules are rules, right?

 

 

As the tail end of my post said.....if they are more that an arm's length away, are they really at the loading table? That should be a common sense approach. Shouldn't it? Most ranges I've been to operate as a "cold range". Meaning no one other than the shooter or those at the loading table are allowed to have loaded guns. If you wander away from the Loading Table, aren't you violating that rule? It seems pretty cut and dried.

 

Is it a big problem? Not at the ranges I've been to. Usually it's a newer shooter that hasn't been schooled properly. But occasionally, you find an old-timer that just plain forgets. If it happens, it needs to be addressed. Plain and simple.

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I've seen shooters half way to the staging area of the active firing line w/o supervision,,,,

 

I've seen people take several steps from LT (toward firing line) to lay their coat on a nearby fence rail or table, and then step back.

 

I've seen people take a couple or so steps to fling their loading strip to gun cart.

 

I've seen shooters take a few steps out, so they could view a person of interest shooting the stage.

 

All were further than arms length.

 

Does any of the above situations every happen at your range (speaking to the crowd here).

 

If not, and everyone is within arms reach, I must be living in a cave.

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yup!!

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To me it just this simple. The rule we have is subjective. Not applied uniformly. So it needs fixed.

 

We have the basic rule, which in my mind is fine, except it needs to have specifics. It needs to define what is compliance, and what is not. Add the specifics, where it can be administered uniformly, and we have no problem anymore.

 

There is no place for subjective rules in this game. Either fix them, or do away with them. Just that simple.

 

RBK

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Ta Daaaa!! :D

 

Yep, it's that simple ;) ...........................however I'm bettin we make it to page 5 with in depth explaining :wacko: I got my stage SDQ when I first started.....never fergot after that one ;)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

Ta Daaaa!! I noad it was gonna make it to page 5 :wacko: Where's my .50 cent?? :huh::lol:

 

J :ph34r: R-E

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There is no place for subjective rules in this game.

 

RBK

Sorry, gotta disagree. If we were to try to remove every bit of subjectivity from the rules, our rule book would be bigger than the current U.S. Tax code. There's going to be some subjectivity in any rules, it's just the way life is. At some point we have to learn to accept that and apply common sense. Yes, I fully realize common sense isn't all that common but again, that's life. Was the shooter "at" the loading table or not? I honestly don't think there's a single person on this thread that needs a rule book to tell them the answer to that.

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Sorry, gotta disagree. If we were to try to remove every bit of subjectivity from the rules, our rule book would be bigger than the current U.S. Tax code. There's going to be some subjectivity in any rules, it's just the way life is. At some point we have to learn to accept that and apply common sense. Yes, I fully realize common sense isn't all that common but again, that's life. Was the shooter "at" the loading table or not? I honestly don't think there's a single person on this thread that needs a rule book to tell them the answer to that.

There you go. We are (and need to be) at the mercy of our pards' judgement. What we really need is a true understanding of BOD and Cowboy Way. The offender's body language and actions will tell you what the call should be (absent minded or not). Let's not create a rule book the size of an unabridged dictionary.

 

CR

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Sorry, gotta disagree. If we were to try to remove every bit of subjectivity from the rules, our rule book would be bigger than the current U.S. Tax code. There's going to be some subjectivity in any rules, it's just the way life is. At some point we have to learn to accept that and apply common sense. Yes, I fully realize common sense isn't all that common but again, that's life. Was the shooter "at" the loading table or not? I honestly don't think there's a single person on this thread that needs a rule book to tell them the answer to that.

And your answer to post #126?

 

Then try to explain why it occurs w/o penalty?

 

My thought in why it isn't usally called, is that there is no definition or common understanding of what is, what isn't at the loading table or what ever.

 

Do we need a definition? hmmmm, no,. Perhaps a temporary moratorium on this rule to evaluate if it is still needed.

 

Yes, we all have to live with some of the bumps in the road of life.

 

This topic is not life or death, but an interesting situation in the rules/interpretation that generally is overlooked.

 

As in life, and society, if a rule is no longer enforce or followed by the people, then perhaps the rule/law should be abandoned. Sure would help if the old rules of the USA and various states were reevaluated and cleaned up where necessary. Just a thought.

 

 

 

Yes, 'common sense' is a fictional state of mind. You know it when you see it, but you can not define it. Presuming everyone has common sense can be dangerous. :)

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And your answer to post #126?

 

Then try to explain why it occurs w/o penalty?

 

My thought in why it isn't usally called, is that there is no definition or common understanding of what is, what isn't at the loading table or what ever.

 

Do we need a definition? hmmmm, no,. Perhaps a temporary moratorium on this rule to evaluate if it is still needed.

 

Yes, we all have to live with some of the bumps in the road of life.

 

This topic is not life or death, but an interesting situation in the rules/interpretation that generally is overlooked.

 

As in life, and society, if a rule is no longer enforce or followed by the people, then perhaps the rule/law should be abandoned. Sure would help if the old rules of the USA and various states were reevaluated and cleaned up where necessary. Just a thought.

 

 

 

Yes, 'common sense' is a fictional state of mind. You know it when you see it, but you can not define it. Presuming everyone has common sense can be dangerous. :)

My answer to #126 is to take every instance on a case by case basis. As you well know, it's almost impossible to fit every scenario neatly into every rule. None of the people and none of the situations in our sport are cookie cutter. Based on your above post it doesn't't look like we're too far off in our opinions, if at all. I don't konw that I'd lobby to do away with the rule, maybe just fine tune it a bit.

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The rule is in the books so it's only changing the wording to find some common ground , not common sense. A 170 rule is in effect and we call that at speed. Don't see why a ten foot rule couldn't be in effect also. I have never seen anybody stop a shooter and pull out a protractor to see if they broke the 170 thus I don't think a tape measure would be needed for the loading table.

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I agree the rule is needed but something more needs to define the distance or as per local layout allows. Like at founders ranch you have the covered loading tables under the cover would be at the lt but if not covered within a arms link unless your moving out of the way of the shooters who are loading. Your still in the table area but you might be out of arms length because of the shooter loading but you have no intention to leave the table. But going to your cart unless your cart happens to be in the lt area is leaving the lt or going anyplace is leaving the lt area. I might also add if your stopped and return and fix it immediately no pentaly but if you make it to your destination before returning and or completing the task you left the lt for then you will be pentaliezed. The only way to avoid the pentaly is returning to the table and stowing your revolvers before completing you task. Simple no hard ass way to handle it.

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Please read the rule referenced and the ROC position posted in #37.

 

There is no standard size "loading area" due to the various range/stage setups.

 

This issue will be on the table for the ROC to discuss at the Summit...however, I don't foresee any change in policy or rule clarification forthcoming.

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Please read the rule referenced and the ROC position posted in #37.

 

There is no standard size "loading area" due to the various range/stage setups.

 

This issue will be on the table for the ROC to discuss at the Summit...however, I don't foresee any change in policy or rule clarification forthcoming.

Thanks PWB,
ROi, page 20
36. Competitors shall not leave the designated loading area with a loaded firearm unless they are
proceeding to the stage as the next competitor to begin the stage.
key words that all of us probably over looked is 'loading area'... right there in the rule books. Doesn't necessarily mean that flat top table thingy that people place their firearms on (horizontally?),,,, commonly called 'loading table'. Loading area could be a three dimensional space, large or small, of which the LT could be within, or all inclusive. ;) Could also include the Expeditor table/position at larger matches,, but those positions have a designated person to monitor the person on deck and that is covered in the rules. Could be interpreted by some, from gun car to LT or anywhere in the berm. Of course most people have different definitions. Great!!
Since few, if any clubs have a written or spoken designated LT AREA, then it is up in the air. Of course, most presume the LT. Lovely. Kinda like driving through a small town and the town marshal decides what the speed limit is... and BTW, I know a small village like that.
I too believe there will be no changes. Not enough oxes are being gored on this one. still entertaining.
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